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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 3 2008, 1:03am
Post #1 of 9
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The Field of Cormallen #4: It Wasn't A Dream
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Well. Frodo and Sam have been carried up out of the darkness and the fire. The next thing we know, Sam is waking up...somewhere.
He remembered that smell: the fragrance of Ithilien. "Bless me!" he mused. "How long have I been asleep?" For the scent had borne him back to the day when he had lit his little fire under the sunny bank; and for a moment all else between was out of waking memory. He stretched and drew a deep breath. "Why, what a dream I've had!" he muttered. "I am glad to wake!" He sat up and then he saw that Frodo was lying beside him, and slept peacefully, one hand behind his head, and the other resting upon the coverlet. It was the right hand, and the third finger was missing.
Full memory flooded back, and Sam cried aloud: "It wasn't a dream! Then where are we?"
And a voice spoke softly behind: "In the land of Ithilien, and in the keeping of the King; and he awaits you." With that Gandalf stood before him, robed in white, his beard now gleaming like pure snow in the twinkling of the leafy sunlight. "Well, Master Samwise, how do you feel?" he said.
I notice (for the first time) that first Sam "remembers" the fragrance of Ithilien, and then he asks "where are we".
But I digress.
1) This is, of course, very like Frodo's awakening in Rivendell after his injury at Weathertop. Any other similar scenes in LOTR?
2) Sam's memory of real events returns, and he realizes "it wasn't a dream". The hobbits frequently dream--or seem to dream--in LOTR. Any other episodes come to mind when you read this statement of Sam's?
Gandalf tells Sam that all is well, Sauron is indeed dead, and Frodo (who has been asleep beside Sam) is reunited with him. And we have some typical Tolkien imagery: laughter like music, like water; tears like rain, like sun.
Sam asks Gandalf what day it is, and Gandalf replies:
"The fourteenth of the New Year," said Gandalf; "or if you like, the eighth day of April in the Shire reckoning. But in Gondor the New Year will always now begin upon the twenty-fifth of March when Sauron fell, and when you were brought out of the fire to the King.
3) Comments on the significance of this date?
Gandalf says he will take them to meet "The King", although Sam seems unsure of just what "King" this is.
"What shall we wear?" said Sam; for all he could see was the old and tattered clothes that they had journeyed in, lying folded on the ground beside their beds.
"The clothes that you wore on your way to Mordor," said Gandalf. "Even the orc-rags that you bore in the black land; Frodo, shall be preserved. No silks and linens, nor any armour or heraldry could be more honourable. But later I will find some other clothes, perhaps."
Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion note:
"As first published this passage read: "'The clothes that you journeyed in,' said Gandalf. 'No silks and linens, nor any armour or heraldry could be more honourable. But later we shall see.'" It was revised in the second edition (1965)..."
4) Why did Tolkien change this wording? And would you ever have noticed, if he hadn't?
Then he held out his hands to them, and they saw that one shone with light. "What have you got there?" Frodo cried. "Can it be - ?"
"Yes, I have brought your two treasures. They were found on Sam when you were rescued. The Lady Galadriel's gifts: your glass, Frodo, and your box, Sam. You will be glad to have these safe again."
H&S again note that these two paragraphs were not added until the second edition.
After getting washed and dressed (and what is Frodo wearing? His disgusting orc clothes?) they go to meet the King:
They stepped out of the beech-grove in which they had lain, and passed on to a long green lawn, glowing in sunshine, bordered by stately dark-leaved trees laden with scarlet blossom. Behind them they could hear the sound of falling water, and a stream ran down before them between flowering banks, until it came to a greenwood at the lawn's foot and passed then on under an archway of trees, through which they saw the shimmer of water far away.
5) This paragraph seems so typically Tolkien that I think I would recognize it as Tolkien even if I read it for the first time. Does it remind you of other Tolkien texts? Within LOTR or in other stories?
Any other comments on this part of the chapter?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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dernwyn
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Dec 3 2008, 4:06am
Post #2 of 9
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Seven for the seven stars in the sky...eighth of April and seven stars? I never noticed before those connnections between "Green Grow the Rushes" and LotR. Interesting.
1) This is, of course, very like Frodo's awakening in Rivendell after his injury at Weathertop. Any other similar scenes in LOTR?
This reminds me of the awakenings of Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry in the Houses of Healing: Merry especially, with his "I am hungry. What is the time?". But all three were brought back from a "deadly land" into a peaceful (albeit brief) sleep, then waking.
2) Sam's memory of real events returns, and he realizes "it wasn't a dream". The hobbits frequently dream--or seem to dream--in LOTR. Any other episodes come to mind when you read this statement of Sam's?
"Ah! The spear in my heart!" Fortunately, what the three hobbits experienced in the Barrow was just a dream!
3) Comments on the significance of this date?
March 25th and April 8th: I've always associated the first date with the start of Spring - and, I think, wasn't that the original beginning of the year, until the calendar was adjusted in the 1700's? Curious about the April 8th, though: I would have expected Tolkien to use April 6th, which carries significance as the date of the flowering of the Mallorn in the Shire, and even later on as a Westfarthing holiday.
4) Why did Tolkien change this wording? And would you ever have noticed, if he hadn't?
(and what is Frodo wearing? His disgusting orc clothes?)
Oh, those little things that get forgotten in the drafts! I think Tolkien needed some sort of closure regarding the orc-rags. Frodo did not wear these; they were only "preserved". So where did Frodo's clothes come from? Sam did not find them lying around the Tower. Were they what the mithril-coat, cloak, and sword were wrapped in, when Shagrat fled? But what would have happened to them later? My own UUT is that Frodo's clothes were still in the Tower, probably among the bodies of the orcs, and that they were found by Aragorn's clean-up crew in time to be cleansed for the ceremony.
5) This paragraph seems so typically Tolkien that I think I would recognize it as Tolkien even if I read it for the first time. Does it remind you of other Tolkien texts? Within LOTR or in other stories?
Other Tolkien texts? All over the place!  The descriptions of the Woody End and Ithilien come first to mind. He had such a mind for scenes of outdoor loveliness!
Any other comments on this part of the chapter?
Okay, so if Frodo and Sam are in coma-like sleep for 14 days, and there's no such thing as IVs back then, how did they get nutrition, especially rehydration?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 3 2008, 5:34am
Post #3 of 9
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Well. Frodo and Sam have been carried up out of the darkness and the fire. The next thing we know, Sam is waking up...somewhere.
Gandalf tells Sam that all is well, Sauron is indeed dead, No, actually Gandalf did not say precisely that. Gandalf said that Sauron was reduced to an impotent little spirit "endlessly gnawing at himself." (I'm only saying this because it's important to my fanfic!)
Sam asks Gandalf what day it is, and Gandalf replies:
"The fourteenth of the New Year," said Gandalf; "or if you like, the eighth day of April in the Shire reckoning. But in Gondor the New Year will always now begin upon the twenty-fifth of March when Sauron fell, and when you were brought out of the fire to the King.
3) Comments on the significance of this date? Wow--fourteen days in a coma! Aragorn and the Sons of Elrond must have known some fairly sophisticated medicine to take care of our heroes. It also strikes me as significant that Sam wakes after Frodo--this shows to me that, physically at least, Sam was in even worse shape than Frodo, bleeding and poison notwithstanding. Giving Frodo most of the food and water must have really taken its toll! As for the significance of April 8, I thought it might be Sam's birthday, but that turned out to be April 6.
Gandalf says he will take them to meet "The King", although Sam seems unsure of just what "King" this is.
"What shall we wear?" said Sam; for all he could see was the old and tattered clothes that they had journeyed in, lying folded on the ground beside their beds.
"The clothes that you wore on your way to Mordor," said Gandalf. "Even the orc-rags that you bore in the black land; Frodo, shall be preserved. No silks and linens, nor any armour or heraldry could be more honourable. But later I will find some other clothes, perhaps."
Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion note:
"As first published this passage read: "'The clothes that you journeyed in,' said Gandalf. 'No silks and linens, nor any armour or heraldry could be more honourable. But later we shall see.'" It was revised in the second edition (1965)..."
4) Why did Tolkien change this wording? And would you ever have noticed, if he hadn't?
It spells it out more, the groty rags, even the orc-gear.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 3 2008, 10:43am
Post #4 of 9
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Okay, so if Frodo and Sam are in coma-like sleep for 14 days, and there's no such thing as IVs back then, how did they get nutrition, especially rehydration?
Feeding tubes have only become common recently, but have been used, or at least attempted, as long ago as ancient Egypt.
On the other hand, maybe they weren't in a coma. Maybe they were just delirious, but could still take a bit of food and drink without remembering it.
(This post was edited by Curious on Dec 3 2008, 10:44am)
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 3 2008, 2:13pm
Post #5 of 9
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1) This is, of course, very like Frodo's awakening in Rivendell after his injury at Weathertop. Any other similar scenes in LOTR?
Yes, the various awakenings (Faramir, Eowyn, Merry) in the Houses of Healing. But then there are many awakenings in LotR, some more pleasant than others. This awakening is the most pleasant of all.
2) Sam's memory of real events returns, and he realizes "it wasn't a dream". The hobbits frequently dream--or seem to dream--in LOTR. Any other episodes come to mind when you read this statement of Sam's?
There's Sam's own dream of being back in the Shire, looking for something in an overgrown garden. But again, as you note, there are many accounts of the hobbits dreaming in LotR, and awakening from dreams.
Sam asks Gandalf what day it is, and Gandalf replies:
"The fourteenth of the New Year," said Gandalf; "or if you like, the eighth day of April in the Shire reckoning. But in Gondor the New Year will always now begin upon the twenty-fifth of March when Sauron fell, and when you were brought out of the fire to the King.
3) Comments on the significance of this date?
March 25, Lady Day, was New Years' Day in many European implementations of the Julian calendar, preceding by exactly nine months Christmas Day. In the Christian calendar, Lady Day is the traditional name of the Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin and the first of the four traditional Irish and English quarter days. The other quarter days are Midsummer Day, when Aragorn and Arwen marry (although in LotR Midsummer Day does not fall on June 24); Michaelmas, 29 September, when Bombadil freed the hobbits from the Barrow and gave them their swords; and Christmas, December 25, when the Fellowship set off from Rivendell.
I got this all from Wikipedia. While people on this board have noted the significance of March 25, Midsummer's Day, and December 25 before, I don't recall a previous discussion of Michaelmas, and its correlation with the Barrow incident. I find all the correlations significant.
Gandalf says he will take them to meet "The King", although Sam seems unsure of just what "King" this is.
"What shall we wear?" said Sam; for all he could see was the old and tattered clothes that they had journeyed in, lying folded on the ground beside their beds.
"The clothes that you wore on your way to Mordor," said Gandalf. "Even the orc-rags that you bore in the black land; Frodo, shall be preserved. No silks and linens, nor any armour or heraldry could be more honourable. But later I will find some other clothes, perhaps."
Hammond & Scull in LOTR Companion note: "As first published this passage read: "'The clothes that you journeyed in,' said Gandalf. 'No silks and linens, nor any armour or heraldry could be more honourable. But later we shall see.'" It was revised in the second edition (1965)..."
4) Why did Tolkien change this wording? And would you ever have noticed, if he hadn't?
Perhaps Tolkien felt that the first version did not properly account for Frodo's orc rags. And no, I probably would not have noticed.
They stepped out of the beech-grove in which they had lain, and passed on to a long green lawn, glowing in sunshine, bordered by stately dark-leaved trees laden with scarlet blossom. Behind them they could hear the sound of falling water, and a stream ran down before them between flowering banks, until it came to a greenwood at the lawn's foot and passed then on under an archway of trees, through which they saw the shimmer of water far away.
5) This paragraph seems so typically Tolkien that I think I would recognize it as Tolkien even if I read it for the first time. Does it remind you of other Tolkien texts? Within LOTR or in other stories?
This is what I like to call one of Tolkien's word pictures. I once had a running post on Main sampling such word pictures throughout LotR. The examples are countless. It reminds me very much of Tolkien's drawings, which tend to be of landscapes.
Any other comments on this part of the chapter?
It's easy to forget that Frodo and Sam thought Gandalf was dead all this time -- Sam reminds us of it. It's important; although the reader knows that Gandalf returned from death, and brought hope with him, Frodo and Sam did not. No wonder Frodo succumbed to despair! No wonder Sam had brief thoughts of suicide!
I love how Gandalf refers to Aragorn as "the King," and purposely refuses to explain who the King might be. Who says LotR doesn't have humor? But it is the kind of humor that brings a smile to my face, not a guffaw.
We are in the midst of the fairy-tale ending, where it seems like "'everything sad'" is "'going to come untrue'" -- i.e., that everyone will live happily ever after. This will last right through Aragorn's wedding -- then the story will take a strange turn that distinguishes it from Tolkien's own model of a fairy tale in "On Fairy-stories."
(This post was edited by Curious on Dec 3 2008, 2:19pm)
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dernwyn
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Dec 3 2008, 9:35pm
Post #6 of 9
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been fed, somehow - thank you for that information, I hadn't realized how far back those procedures were existent!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 3 2008, 9:46pm
Post #7 of 9
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They stepped out of the beech-grove in which they had lain, and passed on to a long green lawn, glowing in sunshine, bordered by stately dark-leaved trees laden with scarlet blossom. Behind them they could hear the sound of falling water, and a stream ran down before them between flowering banks, until it came to a greenwood at the lawn's foot and passed then on under an archway of trees, through which they saw the shimmer of water far away
This is the stream from The Forbidden Pool. Which of course makes me wonder why the bad guys hadn't just followed it back and discovered Faramir's secret hideout.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 4 2008, 12:40pm
Post #8 of 9
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Chapter Posts continue tonight. Meanwhile, a couple of comments:
[In reply to]
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We've had several discussions in the four years I've been posting in the RR, about the dates used in LOTR and their possible (in my opinion, probable) Christian symbolism. Or more specifically, Tolkien's use of dates that had significance both in the pre-Christian era and in the Christian era.
There is a subthread that starts here in which Far From Home made a really interesting comment. I hope she doesn't mind if I repeat it:
March 25 was the traditional New Year's Day (and also Lady Day, as it still is). In 1752 (thanks, Aerin!), the calendar was recalculated and the old March 25 became April 6. As Wikipedia says, "A vestige of this remains in the United Kingdom's tax year, which starts on 6 April, i.e. Lady Day adjusted for the lost days of the calendar change."
I just happened to check the Shire calendars in the Appendices of LotR , and this little entry hit me: "There is no record of the Shire-folk commemorating...March 25...but in the Westfarthing...there grew up a custom of making holiday...on April 6. ...some said it was the Elves' New Year..."
A little joke about England's shifting New Year? Or just a coincidence?
We have had an explanation of "quarter days" before, as well, how they came to be and etc, but I can't seem to find one of those threads quickly. Maybe NEB can...
H&S in LOTR Companion cite Shippey:
"In The Road to Middle-earth, Tom Shippey comments that 'in Anglo-Saxon belief, and in European popular tradition both before and after that, 25 March is the date of the Crucifixion; also of the Annunciation (nine months before Christmas); also of the last day of Creation', all asserted in Byrhtferth's Manual, written by Byrhtferth, a monk of Ramsey, c. 970- c. 1020. From the latter part of the twelfth century the feast of the Annunciation, 'Lady Day', 25 March, was the beginning of the year for most purposes in England. It remained so, for legal and official purposes, until the reform of the calendar in 1751."
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say once you're gone, you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you'll rest in the arms of the Savior, if sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're coming back in a garden: bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Call Her Emily
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Dec 4 2008, 9:55pm
Post #9 of 9
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To the bad guys it was just a stream. Their mission overriding any sense of aesthetics or sentiment, they had no time or inclination to follow it anywhere, nor curiosity as to where it might lead, since oppression targets curioisity first of all. And Faramir had hidden his base in caves behind a waterfall. Nothing about it, aside from beauty, set it apart from the rest of the landscape, at least from a distance. And those who came too close did not live to report where they had gone.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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