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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 16 2008, 9:26pm
Post #1 of 38
(1459 views)
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Am I just a complete curmudgeon?
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Can't Post
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Well, don't answer that.
I'm happy to see new posters to the boards, especially because their enthusiasm is contagious and makes me remember the wonder of Middle-earth.
However, many of these new posts are violating the norms of Torn: they ignore punctuation entirely, they are written in "text speak" ("what do u think"), and lack capitalizations.
Yet not being a mod, and not finding anything specific in Torn 201 or TOS (maybe it's there and I can't find it?), I'm not sure how to handle responses. It's not my place, I don't think, to plea for upholding our standards, and yet I hate to see the standards slide.
Is this a non-issue? If so, I will slink away quietly.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"
From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672
Call Her Emily
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NorskGudTor
The Shire
Nov 16 2008, 9:32pm
Post #2 of 38
(1227 views)
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I try to be correct in my punctuation when I can (firefox does most of it for me). However this is the internet not English class. I Moderate globally another forum and I do not harp over little things like that. Profanity or pure slop mobile phone language yes gets corrected.
Bottom line if you can take the time to spell it or punctuate it go for it but if not, oh well no harm done. Keep the mobile phone language where it should be.
Never walk
away from home
ahead of your axe and sword.
You can not feel a battle
in your bones,
or foresee a fight.
- The Havamal
Not all tears are an evil...G
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 16 2008, 9:51pm
Post #3 of 38
(1230 views)
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I think we all realize there are non-native English speakers here
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I am not talking about perfect English here, I am talking about posters who are writing English but using purposely bad punctuation and lack of capitalization, as well as "text speak" (u no it whn u c it).
Since I rarely edit my own posts, I make lots of spelling errors myself. And I flagrantly misuse ellipses...and commas, which appear where, they shouldn't, when I'm in a hurry.
In short, I'm not talking about spelling or puncutation errors, or errors made when English is not one's first language. I am talking about the purposeful use of bad written English, which has not been the norm on Torn as long as I have been here.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"
From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672
Call Her Emily
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 16 2008, 9:55pm
Post #4 of 38
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We do like to encourage decent punctuation and spelling whenever we can. We also tend to give newbies a grace period to give them a chance to get used to the place before we step in in our official capacity. Often, there are other rules we have to enforce first, and we don't like to hound people when they're still getting used to the place. Many of the worst offenders don't stay long in any case; perhaps they find it as much of a strain to read our posts as we do theirs. 
However, even though you're not an Admin, you can give a hint from time to time. Something polite, along the lines of "I'm finding your posts difficult to read because of ______. I would like to be able to discuss things with you and it would really help if you could use real words/punctuate/capitalize. Some of the people here don't speak English as their first language and it helps them too."
If you get an obnoxious response, then the Admins can step in and back you up and make more pointed comments as needed. It's okay for non-mods to give hints and encourage good etiquette - just don't start lecturing about the rules or threatening consequences. That's when people stop being helpful to us and start getting in the way. Also, if there are particular offenders who have been here long enough to know better, you can always PM one of the Admins and we'll turn our attention to it if we haven't already.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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NorskGudTor
The Shire
Nov 16 2008, 9:56pm
Post #5 of 38
(1223 views)
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"Bottom line if you can take the time to spell it or punctuate it go for it but if not, oh well no harm done. Keep the mobile phone language where it should be."
haha I think I agreed with you. Take is easy.
Never walk
away from home
ahead of your axe and sword.
You can not feel a battle
in your bones,
or foresee a fight.
- The Havamal
Not all tears are an evil...G
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 16 2008, 10:03pm
Post #6 of 38
(1234 views)
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no, I'm sorry, but we don't agree
[In reply to]
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"Bottom line if you can take the time to spell it or punctuate it go for it but if not, oh well no harm done...."
No, I don't agree with that. One should take the time to try to spell and punctuate.
I said I am not arguing about "errors". People make errors all the time, including me. I may have misled you by saying because I rarely edit my own posts, I am subject to spelling and punctuation errors. However, this is not because I have not taken the time to write as clearly as I can using proper punctuation, etc. There is a difference between error and purposeful lack of any attempt to punctuate and spell.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"
From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672
Call Her Emily
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NorskGudTor
The Shire
Nov 16 2008, 10:06pm
Post #7 of 38
(1224 views)
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This topic has already gone on too long haha.
Never walk
away from home
ahead of your axe and sword.
You can not feel a battle
in your bones,
or foresee a fight.
- The Havamal
Not all tears are an evil...G
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Magpie
Immortal
Nov 17 2008, 12:01am
Post #9 of 38
(1199 views)
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Frankly, I refuse to read any post that hasn't made any effort toward conventions in spelling and typography. If they can't be bothered to project a manner of communication that meets me halfway, then I won't bother to extend the extra effort to figure out what the devil they're trying to say. I suppose this is the point to make the disclaimer that I'm not talking about perfect typing, punctuation, spelling, grammar or English. I can usually tell when a post has any problems due to the poster not having English at their first language. But in almost all those cases, even if they have made mistakes in grammar they're getting the punctuation and typography right. And I correspond with up to a dozen people who's first language (or second) is not English and they write English impeccably. It's all about intention. I appreciate the intention to communicate as well as one can using the conventions of communication. I don't appreciate people ignoring the conventions because they can't be bothered or because they think some 'other' style is 'cool'.
I know that some say, 'chill'. I know that some say it's rude to point it out. I have tried what Silverlode suggested more than once and the other person either ignores me or refuses to understand what I'm talking about. I even once provided examples of what they were doing and the 'conventional' way of doing it and they still couldn't (or refused to) understand my point. It's a control thing. They do it because they can. I don't think they are going to change unless forced to. I can't force them. So I ignore them.
And I'm pretty sure I am a curmudgeon. :P
LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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a.s.
Valinor
Nov 17 2008, 12:40am
Post #10 of 38
(1181 views)
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I don't really want to "correct" people when they are new; it's very discouraging. My own first post was, I'm sure, inane (although probably written in complete sentences).
But I feel better knowing I'm not imagining the standards and norms of my favorite place on the web.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"
From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672
Call Her Emily
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Altaira
Superuser
Nov 17 2008, 1:53am
Post #11 of 38
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As a user, can I put in a plug for paragraph breaks?
[In reply to]
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In a non-Admin capacity (and as a proud, card-carrying curmudgeon too ), I'd like to use this opportunity to put in a plug for including paragraph breaks in posts.
I confess that if I encounter a post that goes more than 8-10 lines or so without a paragraph break, I don't attempt to read it at all. This is especially the case if there are *no* paragraph breaks. It's like reading one loooong run-on sentence.
Both on the internet, and in professional emails, I've found that paragraph breaks not only help to define separate subjects and thoughts (as they traditionally should), but encourage people to keep reading. The more breaks I put in, the better my messages seem to get across.
In short, I hope this message gets across. 
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Smeagirl/Girllum
Gondor
Nov 17 2008, 3:44am
Post #13 of 38
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"Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed -- as a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things."
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 17 2008, 3:52am
Post #14 of 38
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 10-16 for "The Tower of Cirith Ungol".
****************************************
And we're discussing Tolkien's classic essay, "On Fairy-stories", Oct. 20-Nov. 30. This week:
"Men dressed up as talking animals may achieve buffoonery or mimicry, but they do not achieve Fantasy."
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Nov 17 2008, 4:32am
Post #15 of 38
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I find one or two sentences between breaks keeps me reading as well.
It's also wonderful when you want to reply to part but not all of a post structured this way.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Nov 17 2008, 7:03am
Post #16 of 38
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Even if you don't want an answer to that question
These posts are difficult to read for me, too. I'm always stumbling over words, having to figure out what on earth that means. And as Silverlode pointed out, being not a native speaker doesn't help in that regard. Sometimes even very simple texts in that language are more difficult to understand than rather complicated texts in proper English, as odd as that may seem at first.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Starling
Half-elven
Nov 17 2008, 7:27am
Post #17 of 38
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kurmudginz of the wrld unite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! //
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
Nov 17 2008, 5:24pm
Post #18 of 38
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Much. 
I agree with you about all that. Those paragraphs that go on forever in text speak make my eyes bleed.
Unfortunately, I don't think people like that read the Feedback board.
And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.
SFTH Archive
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Draupne
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 17 2008, 9:25pm
Post #19 of 38
(1129 views)
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know how to spell it, that's OK
;-)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Nov 17 2008, 9:26pm
Post #20 of 38
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Nov 17 2008, 9:31pm
Post #21 of 38
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I've just recently started text-messaging with my daughter, who moved away a few weeks ago. Even there I find myself unable to resort to "u" for "you", and I have to scroll a long way to get to the apostrophe, but I do it because I can't stand not to. (She's the same way.) I have allowed myself not to capitalize, though.
I appreciate so much the effort made on this site to use correct grammar, spelling and punctuation. And as others have said, I don't mind a few typos or misspellings, as long as the poster seems to be making an effort. I've made plenty of fumble-fingered typos myself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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sador
Half-elven
Nov 17 2008, 9:48pm
Post #22 of 38
(1120 views)
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Oh - so you've finally made it to Valinor
[In reply to]
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Congragulations!
As you see, I'm still taking my time, enjoying this hither shore.
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor were the Shadows lie.
"And thither we are going against my wish. Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?" - Boromir, ‘A Journey in the Dark’.
Join us in the Reading Room for 'The Land of Shadow'!
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Kyriel
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 18 2008, 12:16am
Post #23 of 38
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The same thing happened in the days leading up to and following FotR. Of course, most of the poor grammarians then were too busy squealing over Legolas to make intelligent conversation anyway. Thank goodness they grew bored with us almost as quickly as we did with them. But I shudder to think what will happen here if GdT casts someone too "cute" as Bilbo.....Egad, did I just find a reason not to want James McAvoy in the role? 
Those left standing will make millions writing books on the way it should have been. --Incubus
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Nov 18 2008, 5:57am
Post #24 of 38
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Hopefully that will not be too bad  
And I've already said I never imagined Bilbo as a beauty, only as a middle-aged, a bit too round, ordinary Hobbit. No need for eye candy here
Though that could be a reason to avoid a Legolas cameo
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Elberbeth
Tol Eressea
Nov 18 2008, 5:00pm
Post #25 of 38
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and when I see these type of posts I tend to just skip them, because it takes too much time and concentration to read them. I get that the writers think we should accept them the way they are, but in truth they mainly get ignored. If you want someone to read your stuff, write them properly.
Or maybe I'm just grumpy today.
"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."
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