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dernwyn
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Nov 14 2008, 10:12pm
Post #1 of 15
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The Tower of Cirith Ungol IX: The close call
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Frodo and Sam make their escape. The malice of the Watchers causes them to slow down as they approach: an unseen barrier is being set against them. What is this barrier? Why do the Watchers not sense the Ring, and allow its malice to pass?
But once again Sam uses the light of the Phial - blazing suddenly, as if channelling Sam's "hardihood" - to counter the darkness of the Watchers. Invoking Elbereth and her Light, they rush through as the "will of the Watchers was broken with a suddenness like the snapping of a cord", and the portal crumbles on their heels. It's as if a "force field" has imploded. What caused the gate to crash: the Light, the Name, the Ring, a combination of these three, or more? What are three other times Elbereth has been invoked in order to counter a servant of Darkness?
And this time, the bell and the wails are answered by a speeding Nazgūl. Was it pure luck that there was no such reponse earlier?
This concludes this week's study; thank you for participating! Feel free to add any observations or questions which have not yet been brought up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 14 2008, 11:59pm
Post #2 of 15
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Frodo and Sam make their escape. The malice of the Watchers causes them to slow down as they approach: an unseen barrier is being set against them. What is this barrier?
Fear, the weapon of the undead. See, e.g., the Barrow-wight, the Nazgul, and the Shadowhost.
Why do the Watchers not sense the Ring, and allow its malice to pass?
The Ring may well add to the effect of the barrier, weighing upon Frodo, in particular. At this point, it wants the hobbits to be caught.
What caused the gate to crash: the Light, the Name, the Ring, a combination of these three, or more?
Not, I think, the Ring. A combination of the Light and the Name, and also the innate courage of the hobbits in the face of paralyzing fear.
What are three other times Elbereth has been invoked in order to counter a servant of Darkness?
I never do well at these quizzes, but I remember Frodo facing the Witch-king on Weathertop and Sam facing Shelob. I don't remember the third.
And this time, the bell and the wails are answered by a speeding Nazgūl. Was it pure luck that there was no such reponse earlier?
The Nazgul were in Gondor. Since then, the war in Gondor has suffered a setback, and at least one of the Nazgul has returned to Mordor. No, it was not pure luck, but the result of Aragorn's successful efforts to provoke a premature attack from Sauron.
Feel free to add any observations or questions which have not yet been brought up.
This chapter risks seeming unrealistic and unbelievable. Sam enters a stronghold of orcs, only to find they have almost all killed each other. What luck! It's a tribute to Tolkien that he has set up the scene in such a way that we -- or at least I -- never question Sam's luck.
Tolkien sets it up in the way that he previously depicts orcs, Frodo's mithril mail, and the distraction of Sauron and the Nazgul at this point in time. Tolkien also underminds the luck by making sure that Frodo does not escape unscathed. And Tolkien, through characters like Gandalf, has previously emphasized, repeatedly, that in this impossible task Frodo and Sam must rely on luck, as they call it in Middle-earth. So when Frodo and Sam get lucky in a way that might seem incredible in the Primary World, it seems realistic enough within the parameters of Tolkien's sub-created world. Furthermore, all the luck in the world would not have done Sam any good if he hadn't had the courage to dare walking into the enemy stronghold.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 15 2008, 4:25pm
Post #3 of 15
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...an unseen barrier is being set against them. What is this barrier?
It seems to be the power of an evil will, since we hear later that "the will of the Watchers was broken..." .
Why do the Watchers not sense the Ring, and allow its malice to pass?
The Ring works in mysterious ways. It seems to have helped Sam against the orcs, since they sensed it and were afraid of it. If the Watchers sense it, they too may identify it only as a non-specific power with no "alignment", for good or ill. But the Watchers, as some kind of disembodied will with no self-awareness, may not have sensed the Ring at all, since as far as we can tell the Ring works by amplifying desires and fears in the mind.
What caused the gate to crash: the Light, the Name, the Ring, a combination of these three, or more?
Not the Ring. The Light and the Name together, I think. They are two aspects of the same power - blazing faith and steadfastness as symbolized by the stars.
What are three other times Elbereth has been invoked in order to counter a servant of Darkness?
I guess the one Curious forgot was at the Ford of Bruinen: "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"
And this time, the bell and the wails are answered by a speeding Nazgūl. Was it pure luck that there was no such reponse earlier?
Or was it bad luck that one happened to be passing this time? You can see luck whichever way you want.
Feel free to add any observations or questions which have not yet been brought up.
I believe that this scene was originally to have been set in Minas Morgul itself (hence Sam's unconscious "prophecy" back in the Shire about following Frodo "even if he climbs to the Moon"!) As Curious says, even having Sam rescue Frodo from an orc tower involves quite enough luck. Having him face down the will of the Nazgul would be at another level altogether. So I can see why Tolkien introduced this ordinary, non-haunted subsidiary to the main tower in which to set his hobbit story, leaving the Nazgul with their full fearsomeness for the other half of the story. Still, there seems to be a spookiness about the atmosphere, with a great effort of will required by Sam to overcome his fears, that might have come from the original conception. Maybe the Silent Watchers, with their powerful will that must be broken, are another remnant of that earlier idea? As I recall, it was thanks to you that I first heard about the Minas Morgul drafts. So I was wondering, have you noticed anything in those drafts that might have inspired the final version along these lines?
Oh, and thanks for a great week of discussion, dernwyn!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ships beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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dernwyn
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Nov 15 2008, 11:40pm
Post #4 of 15
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Oh, gosh, how did you ever pick up on that connection between what Sam said and Minas Ithil, that's amazing!
Ah, those Silent Watchers! Herein is set forth a "history" of them (as best as I can glean from HoME):
Tolkien wrote the first drafts of this section while looking ahead when the Fellowship was still in Lórien. You know that originally, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum were to travel straight from the Dead Marshes to Kirith Ungol (translated as "Spider Glen"), situated where the Black Gate would later be. There, the spiders, greater than those of Mirkwood, would bind Frodo while he was sleeping and sting him. The awakening Sam would think Frodo dead, and slip on the Ring when orcs and Gollum came to retrieve Frodo, at which point Frodo would cry out. Sam would follow them to Minas Morgul, enter the city, find Frodo in the Loathly Tower by singing, and the two would make an escape worthy of James Bond, out of the tower and through the city and its gate.
But soon after, Tolkien made notes for various revisions, including this: "Minas Morgul must be made more horrible. The usual 'goblin' stuff is not good enough here. The Gate shaped like a gaping mouth with teeth and a window like an eye on each side. As Sam passes through he feels a horrible shudder. There are two silent shapes sitting on either side as sentinels."
And so Sam enters the city. But when they try to leave, Sam disguised as an orc and Frodo wearing the Ring, Sam tries to "swagger" through the Gate, but finds "each step forward became more difficult. It was as if some will denying the passage was drawn like invisible ropes across his path...he felt tired as if he had been swimming against a strong tide." The Sentinels sit there, dark, still, claw-like hands, shrouded faces, and Sam "sensed they were alive and suddenly alert...it was as if the air before him had become stiff." He manages to force his foot over the threshold, and then "something seemed to snap". He hears a cry and a "clash of iron", and an orc runs out the gate-house door. The orc grabs Sam's cloak, informs him that closing was a half-hour ago, and no one but Sauron's messengers are allowed in or out now.
Uh-huh.
This anticlimactic scenario ends at this point, and is replaced by a Nazgūl arriving as Sam and Frodo flee the tower and try to get out of the city. The two don orc gear and pass through the gate in the rear of an orc-company. But as they pass the now three-bodied Sentinels with no more than a "reluctant feeling", the creatures "give a fell, horrible, far-off cry". The hobbits fling themselves among some rocks and escape.
Fortunately the more sinister aspects were retained when the scene was re-set at the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
And we've very glad that Tolkien felt the "'goblin' stuff" was not good enough!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Nov 15 2008, 11:59pm
Post #5 of 15
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The green sun shines strong here
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Well done, tying this chapter into the "On Fairy-stories" discussion of sub-creation! Yes: it is through everything previously established that what happened here is acceptable and "realistic" within this world, with individual actions playing key roles.
And I think that, technically, when talking of "luck" in this world, the word should always be placed within quote marks! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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squire
Half-elven
Nov 16 2008, 6:35am
Post #6 of 15
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Halt! Who (yawn) goes ther.... oh, never mind
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Tom Shippey praises Tolkien for recognizing that the standard fantasy melodrama of evil orcs "is not good enough here." Since I haven't read a lot of other fantasy, I don't know what to make of Shippey's point that Tolkien revised a lot, to reach a higher standard of literary effect. Don't all authors revise a lot? If not, I guess I'm glad not to be reading those other authors that Shippey implicitly condemns.
Now, on the matter of the Watchers at the gate of Cirith Ungol, do they withstand inspection? Or are they - like most of Tolkien's other monsters - highly improbable in the world of dark and light as he draws it? In other words, what are the Watchers guarding against? When was the last time anything hostile to Sauron attempted to pass through the front gate of Cirith Ungol? Why set up an incredibly elaborate (and spiritually expensive) device that will - in all likelihood - never be needed? The fact that these things were originally intended for Minas Morgul - an entire city - is very telling. There they perhaps made sense - here they don't
One of the big points of LotR is that Sauron is incapable of suspecting that his enemies will try to destroy the Ring, and so he will not defend his realm from such an incursion even though he knows they have his Ring. Yet - as the Watchers show - the story is unsustainable unless there is some kind of guard or watchfulness in Mordor, for Frodo and Sam to overcome or sneak past. But then why is Cirith Ungol - a minor tower in a minor pass - guarded by such formidable magic, yet Orodruin is not? It seems inconceivable that anyone or anything in Mordor has challenged Sauron's omnipotence since his return, yet the story constantly implies that the orcs, or other slaves, are always trying to escape or avoid his dominion and his wars, as Tolkien tries desperately to square this circle. Is Sauron an Evil Overlord, or is he not?
Long before Sam and Frodo reach the Mountain, Sauron knows that one or two "spies" have penetrated his defenses. When was the last time this happened? This is a realm where "travellers" avoid even the valley of Minas Morgul(as Gollum tells us), and no one goes to Mordor who does not have to. Wouldn't this news pique Sauron's curiosity - or at least that of his supposedly highly intelligent lieutenant, the Mouth of Sauron? What are they "spying" to find out that could possibly help Denethor or Gandalf? When have "spies" ever before been sent into Mordor by the forces of the West?
"Sire - perhaps - forgive me - perhaps we should put out an all points bulletin for these spies instead of small teams of incompetent trackers? And - how could it hurt? - set a guard in the Sammath Naur - just in case?"
Bast: "We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Shall I have your ship standing by?"
Tarkin: "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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sador
Half-elven
Nov 16 2008, 9:21am
Post #7 of 15
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What is this barrier? Why do the Watchers not sense the Ring, and allow its malice to pass?
I like squire's question. I can only guess the Watchers were put there in the Second Age, when the Numenoreans held the Ithil valley, left behind (or had the barrier broken), and were repaired when Sauron returned, as a part of the Silent Watchers system.
The is even worse than a UUT, as it contradicts Tolkien's statement about the purpose of the Tower; but I can only say that Sauron must have built some system of forts and towers against invasion that way! And so, the re-installment of the Watchers in Cirith Ungol would be like the replacing of the old king's head at the crossroads, which Morothorn asked about last week.
And that would also explain why they didn't sense the Ring - they were an old model. (no, that wasn't meant to be a joke)
What are three other times Elbereth has been invoked in order to counter a servant of Darkness? The third (first, actually) is when Gildor's song chased the Black Rider away in Woody End.
Note that against Shelob it was singularly unsuccessful.
And this time, the bell and the wails are answered by a speeding Nazgūl. Was it pure luck that there was no such reponse earlier?
See my earlier post. Someone had to find out why Gorbag failed to report.
Feel free to add any observations or questions which have not yet been brought up.
Next week. 
Thanks!
"I wonder if they think of us at all" - Sam
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 16 2008, 11:30am
Post #8 of 15
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Now, on the matter of the Watchers at the gate of Cirith Ungol, do they withstand inspection?
Yes, within the parameters of Tolkien's subcreation, I believe they do.
Or are they - like most of Tolkien's other monsters - highly improbable in the world of dark and light as he draws it?
I'm not sure why you think most of Tolkien's monsters are highly improbable in the world of dark and light as he draws it.
In other words, what are the Watchers guarding against?
They are guarding the entrance to the fortress. The fortress is guarding the east end of the two passes into Mordor. It is primarily guarding against escape from Mordor, but also is part of the guard against armies or spies attempting to enter Mordor, in the unlikely event that anyone got through Morgul Vale or got past Shelob.
When was the last time anything hostile to Sauron attempted to pass through the front gate of Cirith Ungol?
You mean other than the rebellious orcs who just staged a pitched battle within the fortress? Maybe when Gollum escaped? Maybe when other rebellious orcs or humans attempted to escape? Or maybe Sauron is thinking long term, and for some reason wants the gates to his fortress guarded by someone other than orcs prone to rebellion.
Why set up an incredibly elaborate (and spiritually expensive) device that will - in all likelihood - never be needed?
What's so elaborate or expensive about it? Sauron is, after all, the Necromancer. And as I have noted above, I think the Watchers are there more to guard against escape than against intruders. But why not guard against intruders too? After all, someone could claim the Ring and attempt to attack Mordor.
The fact that these things were originally intended for Minas Morgul - an entire city - is very telling. There they perhaps made sense - here they don't
It's clear that there are Silent Watchers in Minas Morgul as well. Why couldn't a couple of Watchers be spared for the Tower of Cirith Ungol?
One of the big points of LotR is that Sauron is incapable of suspecting that his enemies will try to destroy the Ring, and so he will not defend his realm from such an incursion even though he knows they have his Ring.
It's a little more complicated than that. It's true that Sauron does not suspect anyone will attempt to destroy the Ring. But he does suspect that someone will claim the Ring, and will use it against him. He has also launched a war. So he has every reason to defend his realm, even if he does not suspect anyone will attempt to destroy the Ring. Furthermore, as I have noted, Sauron also has enslaved and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of subjects, and must prevent such slaves and prisoners from escaping Mordor.
Yet - as the Watchers show - the story is unsustainable unless there is some kind of guard or watchfulness in Mordor, for Frodo and Sam to overcome or sneak past. But then why is Cirith Ungol - a minor tower in a minor pass - guarded by such formidable magic, yet Orodruin is not?
It's not Cirith Ungol, it's the Tower of Cirith Ungol, which is also guarding the east end of Morgul Pass, a major pass. Even Cirith Ungol is not such a minor pass -- after all, it is one of three known passes into Mordor, and I don't think there are any minor passes into or out of Mordor.
Why isn't Orodruin guarded? Because Sauron does worry about escapees and intruders, but does not suspect that anyone would be interested in unmaking the Ring. Orodruin is only of interest to someone who wants to unmake the Ring. It doesn't guard an entrance into or exit from Mordor.
It seems inconceivable that anyone or anything in Mordor has challenged Sauron's omnipotence since his return, yet the story constantly implies that the orcs, or other slaves, are always trying to escape or avoid his dominion and his wars, as Tolkien tries desperately to square this circle. Is Sauron an Evil Overlord, or is he not?
Challenging Sauron's omnipotence is not the same as trying to escape. Why wouldn't a slave or prisoner want to escape? Why wouldn't the unreliable orcs be prone to desertion? It seems to me perfectly consistent with his tyranny that Sauron's subjects will try to escape if the opportunity arises.
Long before Sam and Frodo reach the Mountain, Sauron knows that one or two "spies" have penetrated his defenses. When was the last time this happened? This is a realm where "travellers" avoid even the valley of Minas Morgul(as Gollum tells us), and no one goes to Mordor who does not have to. Wouldn't this news pique Sauron's curiosity - or at least that of his supposedly highly intelligent lieutenant, the Mouth of Sauron? What are they "spying" to find out that could possibly help Denethor or Gandalf? When have "spies" ever before been sent into Mordor by the forces of the West?
There are hints that Aragorn penetrated Sauron's defenses in the past. Faramir has been conducting active guerilla warfare in Ithilien. Gollum has a relationship with Shelob, and may have returned to Mordor. And this is not an ordinary time. The Ring has been discovered. Aragorn has revealed himself. It's not unlikely that this new king would send spies into Mordor. Sauron does suspect that he has a rival -- he does not suspect, and has no reason to suspect, that the spies would be carrying the Ring.
"Sire - perhaps - forgive me - perhaps we should put out an all points bulletin for these spies instead of small teams of incompetent trackers? And - how could it hurt? - set a guard in the Sammath Naur - just in case?"
Once the spies are discovered and trapped within Mordor, Sauron might not be too worried about them. The key is to guard the exits so they don't escape. Scouring Mordor for them is a big job, and seemingly unnecessary. If it had crossed his mind that they had the Ring with them, he would have done so, but it didn't. And there was the matter of this attack on his northern entrance, by someone who did successfully challenge him and might have the Ring -- that seemed far more important.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 16 2008, 12:32pm
Post #9 of 15
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But then why is Cirith Ungol - a minor tower in a minor pass - guarded by such formidable magic, yet Orodruin is not?
Sauron's thinking reminds me of standard airline security thinking before 9/11 - there was formidable and expensive technology to prevent passengers hijacking planes, or putting bombs in unaccompanied luggage to try to blow up planes. But somehow it never entered anyone's darkest dreams that people might want to take down a plane with themselves on board. Once the deed was done, it was suddenly obvious. But by then the towers had fallen.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ships beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 16 2008, 5:37pm
Post #10 of 15
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may have been influenced by the Maginot Line, and its spectacular failure in WWII.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Nov 17 2008, 6:13pm
Post #11 of 15
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I would assume that numerous spies have attempted to worm their way into Mordor over the years. As the defenses got tighter and tighter, they became less and less successful. Finally Denethor had to give up that approach altogether and take the risky step of using the Palantir for his intelligence. If you were Denethor, would you do otherwise?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Nov 17 2008, 6:21pm
Post #12 of 15
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Why set up an incredibly elaborate (and spiritually expensive) device that will - in all likelihood - never be needed?
What's so elaborate or expensive about it? Sauron is, after all, the Necromancer.
Excellent point, Curious! Here we have yet another answer for what the Nazgul do with all of those that they turn into wraiths with their Morgul-blades. They can surely spare a few to bind into statuary here and there.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 4:46am
Post #13 of 15
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Two questions that I don't think were raised:
What did Frodo tell his questioners? If he believed the Ring had been taken, why not confess all?
And the forces who turn up shortly after the beginning of the next chapter: were they alerted by Shagrat?
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Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 7:23am
Post #14 of 15
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What did Frodo tell his questioners? If he believed the Ring had been taken, why not confess all?
Very interesting question!
I might suggest two speculative answers: either that the orcs were monre concerned with the mithril coat, or that the questioning was more about the great warrior outside (which Frodo probably didn't even realise meant Sam).
In either case, I suspect it was Gorbag who led the questioning, with Shagrat present only to see he didn't overstep the orders - Shagrat was expected only to report faithfully to Lugburz, while Gorbag was eager to show his chief in Minas Morgul he did any good.
Apart of that - could Frodo have been hoping he wil outrage the orcs to the extent that they will kill him?
And the forces who turn up shortly after the beginning of the next chapter: were they alerted by Shagrat?
I did raise it, in the following week's discussion! Curious thought it might have been as you say, or that they was called by the Nazgul; Darkstone suggested it was simply a flying patrol.
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Mar 22 2009, 1:02pm
Post #15 of 15
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I think sador has answered your questions well; I concur.
And an extra thank-you to you, for engaging in such a massive "round-up" as the LotR discussion concludes!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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