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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 12 2008, 3:59pm
Post #1 of 25
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SCOD -- 12/11/08 "Why do the fools fly?"
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Hello everyone! It is a fateful moment for Minas Tirith as the gate is broken by Grond and Faramir is borne to Rath Dínen. Two of the leaders are showing their emotions.
Denethor: "Why do the fools fly?"
Gandalf (at the broken gate): "You are soldiers of Gondor!"
Bigger caps and surrounding ones can be found here and here
Questions:
1. How do you feel watching these two faces?
2. The darkness surrounding Denethor and the light surrounding Gandalf - symbolical or not?
3. Can you answer Denethor's question? Why do the fools fly? Who is he talking about?
As usual, any additional comments and suggestions are welcome!
Thank you for participating!
simplyaven
Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Nov 12 2008, 5:35pm
Post #2 of 25
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"But for the madness of Denethor..."
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Even though I have little patience for Denethor, I suffer for his fall. His sons and his people believed in him so much... more apparent in the book. But here he is swallowed up in the darkness while Gandalf's sheer will holds the Army together... in the thick of the battle giving them heart and guidance. What a glorious leader and a stunning image of unwavering determination! Never give up! Never lose hope!
*twitch* Fantastic!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Nov 12 2008, 5:42pm
Post #3 of 25
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I wonder if Denethor's madness (mental hilarity?) is a similar effect to what happened to Theoden? Either way, Noble nailed the role: As much as Viggo is Aragorn, John Noble is Denethor. Just look at his expression; the weight of his office is gone, the inevitable is happening and he is mildly amused.
1. How do you feel watching these two faces?
As for Gandalf, I was keeping my eye on his good friend Shadowfax. Such a fine friend bolting around carrying the wizard "here and there."
2. The darkness surrounding Denethor and the light surrounding Gandalf - symbolical or not?
It is an interesting thought. How did they find such a dark background where Denethor was at this point? I like the glow of the fires that are constantly on their faces (from the same direction at that!)
3. Can you answer Denethor's question? Why do the fools fly? Who is he talking about?
I think this comes from the book... Denethor believes the end is nigh so there is no point fleeing. This is why he decides to burn himself alive; like the kings of old he was choosing the time of his own death rather than dieing at the hand of his enemies.
Thank you Aven for your excellent work here (I especially like the intro and the multiple links)!
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 12 2008, 5:43pm)
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weaver
Half-elven
Nov 12 2008, 7:55pm
Post #4 of 25
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Denethor looks kind of relieved, doesn't he?
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I agree with others that Movie Denethor here looks kind of glad to "give up".
In RL, I've met and worked with a few folks like this, who after struggling to keep a place afloat, ultimately welcomed the place falling down around them as this got them out of a situation that was clearly painful to them. It also helped them to avoid something even more painful -- the idea of turning leadership over to someone else who could actually fix things.
In these kinds of cases, it was easier for them to see the place shut down than to admit they had mismanaged things, or that the situation was just more than they could handle. Also, they could see themselves as tragic figures if the place failed, rather than failures if the place was saved. Denethor certainly fits this pattern in the films.
I also think the film makers intentionally mirror and contrast images of Gandalf and Denethor throughout ROTK -- it fits with the whole black and white treatment of the throne room, and the book sense of the struggle between them that Pippin observes:
"He turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame."
Along these lines, I remembered that I had posted similar, contrasting images of these two characters back in a September SCOD. Here's the link, for those interested, as it supports the "symbolic" interpretation of these kinds of scenes, as you hit on here in your second question:
http://newboards.theonering.net/...?post=136085;#136085
Weaver
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Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven
Nov 12 2008, 10:21pm
Post #5 of 25
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I helped lead a discussion of this scene
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back on the old boards. I can't now find my notes on it -- they must have been lost in a computer crash of about three years ago.
The one thing I remember is comparing and contrasting Denethor's "Why do the fools fly?" with Gandalf's "Fly, you fools!" in Moria, just before he falls. Both these lines are from the book, although movie-Denethor's is in a different context. I agree that Tolkien was contrasting the failed steward with the ultimately successful one, and despair with hope.
John Noble is an excellent actor and did a great job with the part, but even after all this time I'm still uncomfortable with his appearance. Noble's face (not something you can blame him for!) seems saggy and dissipated, whereas I always saw Denethor as much more austere. Sharper brow ridges, cheekbones, and jawline, hollow cheeks. This is the way he's described in the book.
I realize that book-Faramir is described as dark-haired and sharp-featured, and yet David Wenham's appearance doesn't bother me at all. Go figure.
Denethor's story is surely one of the great fictional tragedies.
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!
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Elven
Valinor
Nov 12 2008, 11:03pm
Post #6 of 25
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Thanks simplyaven 
I really think this is a brilliant SCOD of Denethor - the look says he is already departed.
I also like the fact that he is unshaven here - the stuble tells you the full decline started some days ago - he let go - no pride in being Denthor anymore - Steward of Gondor. He waits for his own fall before the fall of Gondor.
Brilliant!
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 12:30am
Post #7 of 25
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I'm with you, gramma! I have little patience for Denethor too. The comparison with gandalf fighting for denethor's city, for Denethor's people sometimes drives me mad. Because I think Denethor, as a steward, had a duty - his duty was to defend even if it seemed hopeless. Alas, thank you, Gandalf! And thank you, gramma for a wonderful input!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 12:34am
Post #8 of 25
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I know it's a burden, I know his sons he believes were spent, I know he doesn't see hope but I can't find an excuse in my heart for him. His duty was to fight and defend the people in the city. Even if he had to fight at the front line. Like Theoden did - he paid for his madness a dear price but he gained his honour back, didn't he? Thanks for this parallel, really thoughtful! I'm glad you like this SCOD
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Nuradar
Rohan
Nov 13 2008, 12:38am
Post #9 of 25
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That was my initial reaction. (glad to be back after a very long absence - I miss this place!)
1. How do you feel watching these two faces?
Among the best acting in the entire trilogy. I forget who wrote this in another response, but "Noble is Denethor" - can't agree more. Although you can dislike the character, it's hard, I think, to deny the quality of John Noble's acting. His face here tells me that he's utterly given up, and seems to feel some relief from it. It's like he's welcoming his impending doom, just to put himself out of his misery. Gandalf's expression is fitting for the scene - bravery in the face great evil.
2. The darkness surrounding Denethor and the light surrounding Gandalf - symbolical or not?
I would guess it is. PJ and the crew were far too detail-oriented to overlook something like that.
3. Can you answer Denethor's question? Why do the fools fly? Who is he talking about?
I assume he's talking about the residents - fleeing from the attack. I think he's thinking, "I'm facing my death, why can't you guys?"
Thanks Simplyaven! Great shots.
Nuradar
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 12:50am
Post #11 of 25
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Thank you for participating, Lily Fairbairn ! It's great to hear from someone who did the same scene before I must admit I share your opinion on John Noble's Denethor. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate his acting - it's great but... I find his Denethor too soft for my taste. I had another impression from the books.
Your comparison with gandalf's words is so thoughtful! Thanks for sharing this. Now, as I think about it, Gandalf meant theFellowship to be fools if they stay there any longer. While Denethor meant exactly the opposite - the residents being fools if they fly. Which is why I dislike his character so much - he didn't think how to save the people in the city. 
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 12:53am
Post #12 of 25
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Thank you,. Elven, for pointing even the looks of Denethor - unshaven. I hadn't thought about it but you're right! Yeah, I can see it now. The noble steward is gone and the shabby old man is come. It would have been nice if he had lost a little of his pride before - I always think Denethor had too much pride 
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 12:59am
Post #13 of 25
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I'm glad you chose to participate, Nuradar! Hm, I'm among those who dislike the character and I also don't find Noble's face sharp enough but I admit he is a great actor and as much as I was mad watching Denethor's actions, I couldn't help it but being impressed by Noble's attention to detail. He acted with all his features. As about the darkness/light, I was impressed how PJ and the team succeeded in making the space around gandalf so delicately light. It can be seen on the other caps in the gallery - all is dark, only Gandalf and Shadofax are in a circle of light. It's a great job!
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weaver
Half-elven
Nov 13 2008, 1:06am
Post #14 of 25
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yeah, he's a hard guy to like in the films...
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In one interview, John Noble comments about that final moment of Denethor's, where you get that one glimmer of "redemption" for him when he acknowledges Faramir right before he burns up. His comment was "it's not much", but since it was the "only" moment he had, he gave it his all (IIRC!).
That scene goes a long way for me having some sympathy for movie Denethor, as it helps me to see him as a victim of mental illness/depression; it's tragic that the fog only lifts for him right at the end, and when it's too late for him, but surely that moment would bring some comfort to Faramir, and some closure to his relationship with his father. I agree with John Noble, it's not much, but when it's all you've got, it's something.
Weaver
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batik
Tol Eressea
Nov 13 2008, 4:55am
Post #15 of 25
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1. How do you feel watching these two faces?
Sad for Denethor-he quit. Rooting for Gandalf. Kind of stressed, too.
2. The darkness surrounding Denethor and the light surrounding Gandalf - symbolical or not? Probably.
3. Can you answer Denethor's question? Why do the fools fly? Who is he talking about?
I think he's referring to the men who are assigned to man the walls who are fleeing from the oncoming waves of the enemies. I would guess he's inferring there's no point, no escape.
As usual, any additional comments and suggestions are welcome! Ah-an opportunity (and if this is one of those *glug* issues well...here's to ya  ) Why is Denethor not bearded like the rest of the Men?
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 3:43pm
Post #16 of 25
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Yes, it is a meeaningful moment for Denethor! And as Faramir opened his eyes then, I hope he finally knew his father realised what he missed. Thanks for sharing Noble`s thoughts on this, weaver!
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weaver
Half-elven
Nov 13 2008, 4:15pm
Post #17 of 25
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a beard would cover up that great scowl, and nine other possibilities...
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Not in the glug category yet, but has been asked at least once or twice!
Why is Denethor not bearded like the rest of the Men?
1. Well, he does scowl very well -- why hide it?
2. He can't grow a beard. So, the lack of one is symbolic of his "impotency."
3. He's vain. Wants to stand out in a crowd.
4. John Noble was allergic to the stuff they use to glue those things on.
5. Would have caught fire too fast and ruined his final closeup.
6. Continuity error -- they forgot that they had set a precedent of men wizards, and dwarves having beards, and elves, uruks/orcs and hobbits not having them.
7. He's really an elf. Or a hobbit. Or an uruk/orc. The last one explains the behavior problems.
8. Would not have worked at all in the eating scene -- it's easier to see tomato juice on a chin than a beard.
9. To make himself look younger, as his beard was coming in with a lot of gray.
10. Because Sauron told him to, in one of their midnight palantir sessions.
Weaver
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 13 2008, 6:23pm
Post #18 of 25
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Oh, didn't you see his eating manners?! Can you imagine how his beard would have looked at the end of a dinner?  Thanks for posting, batik!
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Nuradar
Rohan
Nov 14 2008, 1:32am
Post #19 of 25
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Thanks simplyaven. My personal motto on villains is the more you dislike them, the more effective the actor is. Denethor is pathetic, mean, and selfish. I feel this way when I watch the movie (even after all these times), so I think John Noble was successful in his acting for that reason alone. But also because despite his flaws, I still feel sorry for him in the end, and I find it sad when he has that hallucination of Boromir while talking to Faramir. The fact that I can still feel sorry for him despite his cruelty makes contributes to my opinion that Noble did an excellent job.
Others will disagree, of course, and I can totally respect that. I can see how it's hard to find anything redeeming in Denethor. My two cents. Thanks,
Nuradar
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OhioHobbit
Gondor
Nov 14 2008, 1:36pm
Post #20 of 25
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Does anyone think that the reason for Denethor’s madness should have been more clear in the movie? Should Denethor’s Palantir and Sauron’s hold over him have been shown? Would it have been possible to do this quickly and efficiently? It seems to me that I read or heard, somewhere, that they were afraid that two Palantirs would confuse the audience and the audience would think it was the same one. For movie Denethor, did all this happen in the background and we were just never shown or is it not even part of movie Denethor’s story?
Movie Technical Discussion -- Index
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frederica bolger
Lorien
Nov 14 2008, 2:42pm
Post #21 of 25
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This is a good cap of Noble's Denethor! What I see in his acting at this moment is self-pity. He has held on so long to preserving his shell, and now he has finally given in and is wallowing in emotion. Given that he himself caused his son's near-death, this causes pity and revulsion in equal measure. Unlike in the book 'why do the fools fly' is not a direct response to leaderless soldiers abandoning their posts (well he himself has told them to... has he had amnesia from that whack on the head?) and feels like he is hallucinating. As pointed out by Lily Fairbairn, this is in contrast with Gandalf's Fly, you fools! and I think this is that Gandalf orders the Fellowship to run and preserve their lives because he has hope that they will succeed without him; no point in all of them making the bridge crash and falling to their deaths. Here, there is nowhere else to run to as they are under siege. Interestingly, there never was a moment when evacuation was an option (and book-Denethor shipped the non-combatants out when he was still compos mentis).
As to the vexed Palantir question: it was alluded to when Denethor says 'do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind'. I still think that they could have left it in rather than the ridiculous leap from the outcrop of rock. If they can't film it in the suicide scene, he could have triumphantly flung it at Gandalf's feet; I'm sure Gandalf could have said a line to explain why there is another Palantir out there.
Rain may fall and wind may blow
And many miles be still to go
But under a tall tree I will lie
And watch the clouds go sailing by.
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 14 2008, 3:42pm
Post #22 of 25
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 14 2008, 3:44pm
Post #23 of 25
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I didn't know they were afraid of confusing the viewers. I thought they didn't have time... I still think it could be a relatively short scene but may be they are right.
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Nov 14 2008, 3:51pm
Post #24 of 25
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Thanks, frederica bolger! You said it so nicely. Yes, I also see his self-pitiness, I also see bitterness, may be kind of "I'm feeeling sorry for you, fools"... Very complex emotion on Noble's face! I've also thought about evacuation and why in the movie he didn't send the women and children away. It would have improved his image Or may be he did. I remember seeing women and children in the first shots of Minas Tirith and the siege, after that I haven't seen any.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Nov 17 2008, 11:28am
Post #25 of 25
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LOL!!! Gluggable questions do yield great fun!...
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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