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Discussion: The Last Debate - Battle!

Ataahua
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Oct 29 2008, 5:27am

Post #1 of 10 (1108 views)
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Discussion: The Last Debate - Battle! Can't Post

1. As they make their way to the Pelargir, why did the Army of the Dead "grow stronger and more terrible to look upon" when the darkness of Mordor strengthened?


The Men of Lamedon fought alongside 'fell folk' of Umbar and Harad to hold a bridge against Aragorn - but fled before the Dead. Aragorn then bade Angbor, the Lord of Lamedon, to gather his people and join him on the ride to the Pelargir.

2. Did Angbor fight alongside his men, and this is Aragorn's mercy in granting pardon if Angbor helps him now? Or was Angbor never party to the attempt by his men to hold the bridge against Aragorn?



"...the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them."
"Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. With its own weapons was it worsted!"

3. How different are the Dead from the Nazgul?

4. How likely is it that people scared and threatened into serving the Dark Lord would find a bunch of dead guys even scarier?


"They comforted the captives that were aboard, and bade them put aside fear and be free."

5. Is this just about calming the slaves' fear of the Dead and unfastening their chains? Or are the Dunedain also talking about the tools of Sauron?


"And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down."

6. What is the significance of breaking his spear? Is it just about not fighting anymore, or is there more to it?


"Thus we crossed over Gilrain, driving the allies of Mordor in rout before us; and then we rested a while. But soon Aragorn arose, saying: "Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed."

(When on the ships): "It is forty leagues and two from Pelargir to the landings at the Harlond," (Aragorn) said. "Yet to the Harlond we must come tomorrow or fail utterly."

7. No light of blazing fires or sounds of battle have reached Aragorn yet, so how does he know what is happening at Minas Tirith?

8. Have you ever 'just known' that something wrong is happening? What clued you in?


Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2008, 6:01am

Post #2 of 10 (857 views)
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*Is confused* [In reply to] Can't Post

*Reads book, becomes argumentative* :-)

The Men of Lamedon fought alongside 'fell folk' of Umbar and Harad to hold a bridge against Aragorn

I read this differently: "men of Lamedon contested the fords with fell folk of Umbar and Harad" means the men of Lamedon were fighting against the folk of Umbar and Harad. One of the dictionary definitions of "to contest" is "to contend, struggle, or fight for".

4. How likely is it that people scared and threatened into serving the Dark Lord would find a bunch of dead guys even scarier?
Scarier the spook one sees than the Dark Lord one only hears about.


"Thus we crossed over Gilrain, driving the allies of Mordor in rout before us; and then we rested a while. But soon Aragorn arose, saying: "Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed."
(When on the ships): "It is forty leagues and two from Pelargir to the landings at the Harlond," (Aragorn) said. "Yet to the Harlond we must come tomorrow or fail utterly."

7. No light of blazing fires or sounds of battle have reached Aragorn yet, so how does he know what is happening at Minas Tirith?

Palantir-vision.

8. Have you ever 'just known' that something wrong is happening? What clued you in?

Yes. I don't know.


My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


a.s.
Valinor


Oct 29 2008, 10:13am

Post #3 of 10 (855 views)
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I think that's right... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The Men of Lamedon fought alongside 'fell folk' of Umbar and Harad to hold a bridge against Aragorn

I read this differently: "men of Lamedon contested the fords with fell folk of Umbar and Harad" means the men of Lamedon were fighting against the folk of Umbar and Harad. One of the dictionary definitions of "to contest" is "to contend, struggle, or fight for".





The text further reads: "And there men of Lamedon contested the fords....But defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled when we came..."

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"

From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672


"You only see the outside of me"


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 29 2008, 1:58pm

Post #4 of 10 (839 views)
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The Last Temptation of Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

1. As they make their way to the Pelargir, why did the Army of the Dead "grow stronger and more terrible to look upon" when the darkness of Mordor strengthened?

Why did the ring grow stronger and more terrible when the darkness of Mordor strengthened? Just like the ring, the Dead are creatures of Sauron. They worshipped him, made terrible oaths to him, and so now are (mostly) totally his. Yes, Aragorn is leading them, but he is riding the whirlwind. He is using Sauron's own weapons against him. He needs to be very careful here. Indeed, one might wonder that if Aragorn had taken the Dead any closer to Mordor he would have lost control of them, like Frodo lost control of the ring.


2. Did Angbor fight alongside his men, and this is Aragorn's mercy in granting pardon if Angbor helps him now? Or was Angbor never party to the attempt by his men to hold the bridge against Aragorn?

I agree Angbor and his men were defending the bridge against the Corsairs. Like in the movie, Scrubbing Bubbles to the rescue, only it doesn’t seem as silly when told second hand.


"...the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them."
"Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. With its own weapons was it worsted!"

3. How different are the Dead from the Nazgul?


Except for the rings, they’re not. The more pertinent question would be, how are they different from barrow wights? The answer is, they’re not. Again, Aragorn is skating on the edge here, using Evil to defeat Evil. It’s like if he had used the ring to defeat Sauron. It's interesting that Jackson picked up on this moral danger and emphasized it with the suspense of whether movie Aragorn will dismiss the Dead. Nice catch by Jackson.


4. How likely is it that people scared and threatened into serving the Dark Lord would find a bunch of dead guys even scarier?

It’s the wolf at your door, not the one in the forest, that you’re most concerned about. Still, if these bozos change allegiance that quickly, don't trust them at your back.


"They comforted the captives that were aboard, and bade them put aside fear and be free."

5. Is this just about calming the slaves' fear of the Dead and unfastening their chains?


I’ve always been puzzled at how the galley slaves can become a viable army. Being chained to an oar for untold years may produce strong arm muscles, but the legs tend to atrophy. It’s kind of like liberating Buchenwald and expecting the inmates to march to Berlin and fight. Ain't going to happen.


Or are the Dunedain also talking about the tools of Sauron?

Probably. Except any orcs. Orcs are dead meat on sight.


"And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down."

6. What is the significance of breaking his spear? Is it just about not fighting anymore, or is there more to it?


As leader of his people the King of the Dead was doubtless the one who swore the oath of allegiance to Sauron. Aragorn has enabled him to break that allegiance and so free the King. In turn the King’s subjects owe allegiance, or “comitatus”, to the King. Indeed, they probably swore oaths to him upon his spear. By breaking the spear the King is freeing them from their oaths. Aragorn can free the King of the Dead, but the Dead must be freed by the King of the Dead. It’s the Trickle Down Theory in action.


"Thus we crossed over Gilrain, driving the allies of Mordor in rout before us; and then we rested a while. But soon Aragorn arose, saying: "Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed."
(When on the ships): "It is forty leagues and two from Pelargir to the landings at the Harlond," (Aragorn) said. "Yet to the Harlond we must come tomorrow or fail utterly."

7. No light of blazing fires or sounds of battle have reached Aragorn yet, so how does he know what is happening at Minas Tirith?


“The King and the Land are One.”


8. Have you ever 'just known' that something wrong is happening?

Yep.


What clued you in?

Distant mortar fire.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Oct 29 2008, 4:31pm

Post #5 of 10 (825 views)
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Wow. *mods up* [In reply to] Can't Post

"Riding the whirlwind". I never quite thought of this, in all my readings. Thanks for deepening my understanding with your vivid commentary.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2008, 6:15pm

Post #6 of 10 (791 views)
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Ah... *lightbulb* [In reply to] Can't Post

It was the 'with' that threw me. Thanks for clearing that up!

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2008, 6:24pm

Post #7 of 10 (805 views)
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Nice catch! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Indeed, they probably swore oaths to him upon his spear. By breaking the spear the King is freeing them from their oaths. Aragorn can free the King of the Dead, but the Dead must be freed by the King of the Dead. It’s the Trickle Down Theory in action.



I suppose he's ending his Kingship with the spear-breaking then - which makes sense, because you don't need to be a King when you're Properly Dead. (As opposed to Almost Dead.)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Elros
Rivendell


Oct 29 2008, 10:47pm

Post #8 of 10 (784 views)
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Thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

1. As they make their way to the Pelargir, why did the Army of the Dead "grow stronger and more terrible to look upon" when the darkness of Mordor strengthened? I think Darkstone covered this very well, so I'll just add that the Dead Army is probably growing very excited and eager to fight to fulfill their oaths after so many years of terrorizing the occasional wanderer under the mountain.

3. How different are the Dead from the Nazgul?
As far as spirits are concerned, they are the same. They only differ in the manner in which they became wraiths. The Nazgul became wraiths by taking his rings and effectively swearing oaths to Sauron. The Dead became wraiths by forsaking their oaths to Isildur. Also, I think the Dead have a little more free will than the Nazgul, which are wholly bent to Sauron's will due to the Rings. Despite the fact the Nazgul were once Men, some even of Numenor, the reader never holds out hope that perhaps Aragorn will sway them to his banner. The Dead were once evil Wild Men whom the reader is never totally sure will fight for the West, yet Aragorn is able to attain their help.

4. How likely is it that people scared and threatened into serving the Dark Lord would find a bunch of dead guys even scarier?
Proximity. I'm sure once they saw the Dead Army, they completely forgot What's His Name. If the roles had been reversed, I'm sure they would have fled from Sauron without thinking of possible punishment from the King of the Dead.

5. Is this just about calming the slaves' fear of the Dead and unfastening their chains? Or are the Dunedain also talking about the tools of Sauron? Could be both. Umbar was inhabited first by many Numenoreans corrupted by Sauron, then by the Gondorians of Castamir. I would think Aragorn would know this and wish to reunite as many of the Edain as possible. Even if they don't accept his pardon at the moment, it would be a great political move for after the War. Even without the influence of Sauron, given Gondor's history of superiority complexes, the Corsairs would most likely still been fearful of Gondor's wrath for serving the Dark Lord and remain estranged. Thanks to Aragorn's words, they would be more trusting of the new King and less fearful of retribution.

6. What is the significance of breaking his spear? Is it just about not fighting anymore, or is there more to it? He has fulfilled his oath and needs it no more. His life is finally over and he can be at peace.


sador
Half-elven

Nov 2 2008, 8:43am

Post #9 of 10 (775 views)
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A few thoughts, some to the point [In reply to] Can't Post

1. As they make their way to the Pelargir, why did the Army of the Dead "grow stronger and more terrible to look upon" when the darkness of Mordor strengthened?
In the Dark you can look at them. And their power is in terror.

3. How different are the Dead from the Nazgul?
Weaker. As I've written before, one Nazgul in Pelargir would change the whole outcome. A few weeks ago (when NEB was leading 'The Siege of Gondor'), I suggested that the main effect of Aragorn's using the stone was not making Sauron's assault earlier, but having him concentrate the Nazgul of Minas Tirith. Gandalf being revealed there also helped.

Probably without knowing it, Aragorn made a very useful feint.

4. How likely is it that people scared and threatened into serving the Dark Lord would find a bunch of dead guys even scarier?
They are not scarier than the Nazgul, only than the Umbar sergeants (which were probably running themselves).


5. Is this just about calming the slaves' fear of the Dead and unfastening their chains? Or are the Dunedain also talking about the tools of Sauron?
It's good tactics; if you want these guys to row faster than ever, make them feel they are earning their liberty. They won't be of any use on the Pelennor Fields, but boy, they can row!


6. What is the significance of breaking his spear? Is it just about not fighting anymore, or is there more to it?
Compare this to the Witch-king being 'a Spear of Terror' in Sauron's hand. Aragorn is dismissing his own Undead Army (Darkstone is definitely right here).




"If this be jest, then it is too bitter for laughter" - Aragorn


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 7 2008, 2:05am

Post #10 of 10 (777 views)
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"using Sauron's own weapons" [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for picking up on that little problem with the Dead: that they were/maybe still are Sauron-worshippers. That's an easy point to forget when getting caught up in the narrative.

Aragorn was indeed caught up in a delicate balancing act. And if the Dead might actually become stronger when closer physically to Sauron, then taking them eastward would have been a disastrous move.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915

 
 

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