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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: SgniR eht fo Drol eht: Noissucsid Eivom:
Scenes not included in the EEs.
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Evernight
Llednevir


Oct 27 2008, 1:13am

Post #1 of 51 (926 views)
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Scenes not included in the EEs. Can't Post

Is there a list of scenes filmed but not included in the Extended Editions? I've read something about those scenes in Wikipedia, but I don't know whether to trust it or not.
I apologize if there already is a thread about this, I've looked around but couldn't find one.

P.S.: I remember watching two short fragments at YouTube, one with Legolas walking through the woods of Ithilien and one of Gimli examining a stone of some kind.

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...

(This post was edited by Evernight on Oct 27 2008, 1:14am)


Arwen's daughter
Nevle-flah


Oct 27 2008, 1:40am

Post #2 of 51 (680 views)
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I tried to put together a list a while ago [In reply to] Can't Post

But I don't know that we have everything. You can find the thread with everything we came up with HERE.



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TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
Screencap of the Day Schedule for October


Evernight
Llednevir


Oct 27 2008, 2:48am

Post #3 of 51 (571 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Great thread, thank you very much for your help! Smile

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...


_V_
Neirol


Oct 27 2008, 3:52pm

Post #4 of 51 (581 views)
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I'm "in the process" of compiling one [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm in the process of compiling one, that is, "eventually" (however long that takes)

but we run into several problems:

You see there are things like "scenes we considered doing but realized were a mistake so we didn't" (interesting to note, but not important) then "scenes we wanted to do but never filmed" (i.e. the Sarn Gebir scene; the set was destroyed in a flood)

But in terms of "finished scenes that were actually filmed, then edited out" (and maybe some post-CGI special effects shots weren't added in, etc.)...we run into a bigger problem:

"Deleted for time" vs "Deleted because we realized it shouldn't have been made"

That is to say, there are dozens of scenes which conflict *directly* with other scenes, and both cannot exist; alternate ways of conveying the same information.

Then of course we have what every movie has; alternate takes of the same scene and dialogue but delivered differently (there are 2 dozen alternate takes of the "Frodo Lives" scene at the Edoras celebration at the beginning of ROTK) but lets ignore those

Or we have condensations of scenes: the original Prologue was much longer and included ALL of the names, but then they decided "telling people who Gil-Galadi is now and what Narsil is is dumping lots of names on them and will confuse them right at the beginning of the story".....or the Gandalf and Saruman scenes; in the gardens and in Isengard; these were A LOT longer and dumped a LOT of exposition and backstory, but they realized this would slow the movie's pace to a grinding halt, and unfortunately many of these scenes between the most destinguished actors on the film, McKellan and Lee, had to be cut down to size. Or when Gandalf is in Bag End explaining what the Ring is; one of their alternate ideas was to put the "Prologue" flashback in there, or have more of Gandalf talking; lots of extra exposition they chose to cut, which I agree with from a pacing standpoint.

But then we have things that are "we realized this shouldn't exist": things like Arwen at Helm's Deep would be an obvious example; the scenes "exist" and were filmed but they "didn't happen" anymore, clearly. Or how originally at the end of FOTR, they ended with Frodo killing an Uruk-hai that jumps out of the water.....this is back when Hollywood kept demanding that they "follow format" and make a generic movie where the hero is in an action movie, kills bad guys in direct confrontation, etc. If you check, Frodo never kills *anything* in the books or films; and this is important because it shows how he's not a warrior but he saves the world (Christ-like figure). Or how they ultimately *didn't* have a direct confrontation between the head Good Guy (Aragorn) and Bad Guy (Sauron) or Sauron vs Frodo for that matter; that's not normal movie format, but its more realistic. Anyway this scene was cut with Frodo killing an Uruk because they realized it was totally cheap, and thus it obviously "no longer exists"

But then even in the EE we have the murky area of "was this purely cut for time, or because you weren't happy with it?" i.e. the Fellowship arriving in Lorien scene in FOTR EE where the costumes are the early version they didn't like. does this mean Legolas has two costumes and Gimli looks two separate ways? Probably not. I just take it with a grain of salt and focus on the story being conveyed, which still "fits well"

but then we have stuff like: "Is Eowyn acting "in character" when she tries to make stew for Aragorn, or is this making her too domestic? You cut it out but how does this reflect the character now?" I myself don't really mind, and just see it as setup for the conversation where Aragorn explains that he's 87 years old and rode with Eowyn's grandfather, as he is one of the Dunedain, blessed with long life 3 times that of regular Men.

Or further, all of the many alternate takes they did on "how do we explain why the Elves aren't fighting too?". Frankly, I have no idea why they complicated this so much as the books were pretty clear; they are under attack themselves. But they didn't have the budget to show this, and more importantly, the TIME to show this.

So they kept trying to think up various scenes to...frankly, INVENT tension where none existed, such as having the Elves actually DEBATE whether to help the Men or not, when in the books they're helping as best they can, and indeed in the final film they're pretty much on their side all the time (even the Elrond/Galadriel interlude in TTT....this does not go nearly as far as some of the "debate" scenes they thought up)

They went so far as to have scenes of Elrond AND Arwen visiting Lothlorien to debate this, and Arwen and her grandmother Galadriel debating what to do.

But that was the whole point of the scenes: they didn't have enough time to explain that the Elves aren't fighting because they cannot, but their answer was to develop inventented scenes of a "debate"....which ultimately grew to such length that it would actually have been shorter to just put in the original explanation! The result was that they just cut almost all of this out.

And there are more scenes of say, Arwen reading books explaining what the Paths of the Dead are in ROTK to give us exposition we didn't really need (the infamous "Lost Rivendell Library scene") and Treebeard and Legolas talking at Isengard about the passage of the Elves and Ents.

Ultimately, I really need to sit down and watch all 3 extended movies, ALL FOUR COMMENTARY TRACKS and make a detailed list of everything we know.

I've watched the Cast commentary most, and I've watched the Director Commentaries through a few times, but to be honest I only got through the Design commentary (with John Howe and Richard Taylor) up to about TTT, and never got through the Production commentary.

Yeah, so anyway the debate raised is: "are these scenes that should have existed but were deleted for time, or because they don't quite fit but are good ENOUGH that you thought we'd like to see them in the Extended Edition?"

Of course I speak of FOTR and TTT: for ROTK, the Saruman's final showdown scene is a special case unto itself, as it was blatantly part of the film and really should never have been cut. When I saw that in theaters I just grit my teeth and moved on, knowing full well after 2 previous EE's that it would be in the EE of ROTK and that everyone considers those the definitive edition anyway.

But things like.....did we REALLY need MORE Gimli comic relief on the Paths of the Dead? Or a drinking contest scene with Legolas? No, and they seem a little odd; but I think they threw them in the EE not so much "because they were good" but because "we thought you the fans might want to see these"


Basically any Extended Edition scene I take with a grain of salt and realize it might not mesh perfectly with the rest of the film, but its in this odd limbo state that I consider it still "part of the film"...in the same sense that when the boom microphone is visible on-camera, I just disregard it as a goof but it doesn't affect the scene.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game"

Formerly known on TORN as "Draug the Unspeakably Violent"


SirDennisC
Nevle-flah


Oct 27 2008, 4:06pm

Post #5 of 51 (558 views)
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A labour of love [In reply to] Can't Post

I appreciate your efforts on this and look forward to seeing more.

As for the set destroyed by flood, was it a leaky studio or a flood along a river? If the latter, and the set was washed away, there yet may be some artifacts to be found in said river, no?


Elwen
Neirol


Oct 27 2008, 4:29pm

Post #6 of 51 (550 views)
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Speaking of "inventing tension" [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that way of putting it by the way, it sums up so many aspects of the film's execution so well.

There's one "scene that doesn't exist" that haunts me that also reeks of this invented tension. In the Rivendell farewell scene, there are images (not very good) of Arwen and Legolas bidding each other farewell. (Placing their hands to each other's cheek.) I wonder what happened to this scene. Those images, coupled with how Orlando plays his giving back of the Evenstar to Aragorn at Helm's Deep leads me to think there was a planned Legolas-Arwen-Aragorn triangle. (He's not just surrendering the necklace, he's bowing out of the picture.) Now I understand the argument that two relatively young, good looking, royal bloodline elves could well have hooked up, but it didn't happen in this case, at least so far as the Professor told us. It would just have been another way to make the movie more familiar and mainstream by creating obstacles.

Was this Rivendell farewell ever filmed? If it was, I think it was cut very early on, because there was no mention of it. (Although I remember an extremely early interview with Dom, Billy, Elijah, Sean, Liv and Orlando in which Orlando mentioned that his character had a crush on the elf princess.)


Turambar
Eerb


Oct 27 2008, 5:05pm

Post #7 of 51 (564 views)
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Arwen-Legolas Farewell [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard about this scene too, and I'm sure I've seen it somewhere other than in still photos. I think I might have seen this somewhere througout the appendicies for FOTR: EE.


(This post was edited by Turambar on Oct 27 2008, 5:05pm)


grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 27 2008, 5:17pm

Post #8 of 51 (573 views)
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Here are a few more [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Billy said he had a scene with Gandalf at the Havens when he asked Gandalf if he really had to leave, and Gandalf says his work is done.

Dom talked to a group about his favourite scene when he was coming into Minas Tirith after the Battle stumbling, hurt and lost until Pippin found him (like in the book).

Frodo and Sam had an expanded version of the fight at the bottom of the stairs in Osgiliath.

You can tell there were a scenes done that the players had done ADR when they talk about anticipating the upcoming scene, or when Post Production/Director, etc. commentaries mention them.

Christian River and Peter storyboarded a scene after Gandalf and the Balrog fall into the water at the foundation of the Mountain. It's a long shot with Gandalf climbing out of the water onto a rocky shore when 3 or 4 Watchers crawl out on either side of him to escape the Slime Balrog who jumps out of the water.

It always strikes me that Frodo and Sam must have been having an argument/disagreement just before Gollum shows up with the conies. Frodo's asleep, but it looks like he faded off with tears in his eyes and Sam is standing and looking out... seemingly still very aggravated when he turns to see Gollum there

There's a scene during Bilbo's party when Frodo is playing a drum with the band.

The scene when Frodo and Arwen look at each other in Rivendell, and I'm wondering if that's the scene where Frodo and Sam are standing at a globe-type statue in the gardens. There's also a scene there where all 4 hobbits are visiting in that same spot.

There's an expanded version of when Hobbiton is being torched and the Shirelings beaten and then led away in chains (as seen in the Mirror).


I'll be back with some more... I should work some today ;)




sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


Peredhil lover
Ronilav

Oct 27 2008, 8:15pm

Post #9 of 51 (526 views)
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It was a river flood [In reply to] Can't Post

IIRC, they had to evacuate the set and went to the next town. Thanks to heavy rain, the river rose quite a bit and washed the set away. Such a pity Frown

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


SirDennisC
Nevle-flah


Oct 28 2008, 4:07am

Post #10 of 51 (513 views)
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Did they recover everything? [In reply to] Can't Post

if not, treasure hunters ho!


Peredhil lover
Ronilav

Oct 28 2008, 5:58am

Post #11 of 51 (505 views)
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I doubt it [In reply to] Can't Post

That was not mentioned, but I sincerely doubt it. From what I got from the short remarks, it seems as if the river rose a few meters in very short time and swept everything at the shore away. I'd guess it was carried many miles and probably crashed to little pieces. So I'm not sure it would still be recognisable as a piece of the set, particularly as there had to be a lot of other debris, too. But that is only IMO, of course - I'd not be surprised if some treasure hunters have been looking out for the pieces Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Loresilme
Ronilav


Oct 28 2008, 4:16pm

Post #12 of 51 (494 views)
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I'd like to see that list [In reply to] Can't Post

I found myself entertained just reading your post - I'm sure if you really put something together it would be very interesting no matter what criteria or labels you use Sly.


Magpie
Latrommi


Oct 28 2008, 6:03pm

Post #13 of 51 (519 views)
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I can't believe I'm saying this [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been thinking that there needs to be a comprehensive list like has been discussed in this thread (and past ones) along with a comprehensive effort to gather and compile images from these scenes.

This could even be a LOTR movie board project. The problem is, even though I am highly tempted, I know better than to let myself get sucked into any kind of organizing or formatting of this information (into say... a website!). I would, however, be willing to pass on information I find, take a turn at searching through some DVD extra material or magazine info or something, or preparing/resizing images we gather. I would also be willing to host images on my server.

In fact, I wonder if we couldn't get TORn to host something like this. A lot of this stuff is in The Scrapbook but not in any organized fashion. I suspect though, that the focus is on the new (Hobbit) not the old (LOTR).


LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Arwen's daughter
Nevle-flah


Oct 28 2008, 6:21pm

Post #14 of 51 (494 views)
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I've been thinking the same thing, lately [In reply to] Can't Post

But don't have the time to do such an archive justice (nor the sanity). I'd be more than happy to contribute images and details that I've accrued, though. Maybe after the holidays I'll be ready for a new project...



My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
The Screencap of the Day Schedule for November


weaver
Nevle-flah

Oct 28 2008, 6:22pm

Post #15 of 51 (494 views)
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well, I'm glad you did... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no technical skills to contribute, but it's an intriguing suggestion!

I could bring the cookies, maybe....

And I still have my old TORn cheerleader uniform around here somewhere...

Smile

Weaver



grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 29 2008, 2:37pm

Post #16 of 51 (492 views)
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I'll do it :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I've already gathered lots of pics and pieces ever since I started my geeky observation lists, and already have quite a bit stored up and preparing to add as a new addition to my site (which has been woefully neglected).

I'd be happy to be the gatherer of the info... and I'm still working on the Collectibles stuff as well.

I've accumulated what we've mentioned here and in other posts, so BRING IT ON!

I can't promise to be the mother of all organizational skills or timeliness... but lets just say this has moved high on my priority list along with already updated my geeky lists.

So if there are contributions/ideas anyone would like to share, please make mention of UNUSED SCENES or FOOTAGE or something like that in their subject line to draw my attention. Or feel free to pm me.


Cheers sibbies!




sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


weaver
Nevle-flah

Oct 29 2008, 3:10pm

Post #17 of 51 (510 views)
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*pins merit badge on gramma* [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, if there was ever a job for the Half-Elven this is it!

You are a gem for stepping up like this -- so I will help you bear this burden if I can. Though I am not much of a saver of things like this. Others in this thread, though, look like they can be of major help. But I can certainly carry messages, etc. So let me know what I can do.

Weaver



Arwen's daughter
Nevle-flah


Oct 29 2008, 3:47pm

Post #18 of 51 (492 views)
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*rummages for gold star* [In reply to] Can't Post

Aha! Here it is. Thanks gramma!





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Patty
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 2:44am

Post #19 of 51 (469 views)
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Aha! I see there's a new goal to reach. Gramma, the half-elven! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't wait to see the pics and this list. It's something I've long wondered about. Would it be asking too much to add the pics that Decipher did that weren't in the movie--i.e. the pics of Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Radagast, Erkenbrand, the sons of Elrond, etc.?

Permanent address: Into the West


Magpie
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 2:57am

Post #20 of 51 (480 views)
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I'll do that [In reply to] Can't Post

that is, if I don't forget.

unless gramma's already got them.

If I don't have them already, I'm always looking stuff up on that site so I'm used to it.

If I forget... feel free to prompt.


LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 4:53pm

Post #21 of 51 (451 views)
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I have a lot of pics already [In reply to] Can't Post

and MANY of them are the Decipher shots. They did a fantastic job with those! Gorgeous!

Yeppers, we'll definitely be seeing some Deciphering going on ;)

Thanks, Patty! It's great to see you. NOW COME ON and Half-elven yerself! I'm getting lonely!




sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 4:55pm

Post #22 of 51 (446 views)
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Excellent! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think between the 2 of us, we'll have a glorious collection! It's been a while since I worked on those :D




sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


Patty
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 5:05pm

Post #23 of 51 (447 views)
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In for a penny, in for a pound.... [In reply to] Can't Post

and could you cut off the card part and just post the pic? Boy, I want it all, don't I? Thanks ladies!

Permanent address: Into the West

(This post was edited by Patty on Oct 30 2008, 5:08pm)


Magpie
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 5:12pm

Post #24 of 51 (445 views)
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I do think the decipher images need some annotation [In reply to] Can't Post

for example, the unused people weren't footage from the movie. They were shot specially for Decipher. And at least one character used on a card was given one name for the movie and another for a card. So you can reference Decipher cards to learn more about the movie. But you can't take them as 100% representative of the movie.

Gramma... how will we coordinate what we each have? Would it be easiest for me to just work up what I have (cutting off the bottom per Patty's request) and then you can let me know if I missed something you have?


LOTR soundtrack website : FOTR Lyrics Update, Oct 2008
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 30 2008, 6:54pm

Post #25 of 51 (432 views)
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Sure! Thanks sounds great :D [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want, you can email me at grammaboodawg@hotmail.com OR pm me OR just stick them in a post for everyone to have a chance to slobber as much as I plan to ;)

I'm shaking my head at what you've just volunteered for. You have my bow, my sword AND my axe!




sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists

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