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Milady
Rivendell
Oct 7 2008, 7:48pm
Post #1 of 13
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Battle of the Pelennor fields part 2
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Now the Nazgul gloats a little to Dernhelm, saying “He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.” He, apparently, being the Witch-king talking in the third person. Dernhelm claims ‘he’ will hinder him if at all possible, to which the Nazgul responds with the oft-misquoted line:
“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”
General thoughts, comments, speculations on the line, how it’s been changed to ‘kill,’ why it may have been remembered wrong?
Incidentally, does this imply that undead beings can hinder him?
Merry hears what seems to be the strangest noise for the current situation: Dernhelm is laughing, and announces that she isn’t a man—she is in fact Eowyn, and if he tries to hurt Theoden, she will smite him.
Who saw this coming?
The creature screams at her, but the Witch-king does nothing, “as if in sudden doubt.” Merry opens his eyes, and sees the following: “There some paces from him sat the great beast, and all seemed dark about it, and above it loomed the Nazgul Lord like a shadow of despair. A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy’s eyes.”
Rather compelling image, isn’t it? A lot of Middle-earth comes from Norse mythology, so do you think maybe Eowyn here is inspired by the valkyries?
‘Helm of her secrecy’ is interesting, especially coming right after the name Dernhelm. If anyone can figure out what meaning to name may have and if it relates to her disguise at all, please share.
Merry suddenly remembers seeing her face at Dunharrow. He resolves to help her if he can. He moves ever so slowly, and the Ringwraith doesn’t see him. The beast rises into the air, and is promptly beheaded by Eowyn. With its death, some darkness is lifted. The Nazgul swings his mace and breaks Eowyn’s arm quite thoroughly, she falls, and he stands over her. Suddenly, he screams: Merry has just stabbed him behind the knee.
Is this in any way reminiscent of the legend of Achilles, and the Achilles heel?
Eowyn, exhausted, manages to get up and shoves her sword where the Nazgul’s head should be. The sword shatters, and the Witch-king’s cloak and armor are suddenly empty. A wailing voice rises up and is gone.
Really, what are the chances that it would be that literal, and a woman could kill him? Was Eowyn even thinking rationally at this point? Or is it that ‘hinder’ is not the same as ‘kill’ and no man had ever tried?
Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.
(This post was edited by Milady on Oct 7 2008, 7:48pm)
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Elros
Rivendell
Oct 7 2008, 9:28pm
Post #2 of 13
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Thanks for the questions Milady. All I know about Norse mythology is the Viking beat the Saints last night, so I'll just stick to the last set of questions for now.
Really, what are the chances that it would be that literal, and a woman could kill him? I think one has to consider the background story to answer these questions. The whole "No living man may hinder me" isn't some sort of physical law of Middle Earth, such as gravity or something similar. Glorfindel uttered, "'Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" to stop the Gondorian general Earnur from chasing after the Witch-king on a suicide mission after the Battle of Fornost. I don't think Glorfindel ever intended to be a Miss Cleo with that line, just settle down Stormin' Norman. I'm sure he did indeed have the foresight to envision Eowyn actually slaying the Witch-king, but it was pointless going into anymore details at the time.
One thing I notice about the actual text of the Witch-king's quote is the lack of capitalization in the word 'man'. I'm sure there are exceptions, but typically, it seems Tolkien capitalized the 'm' in the word Man when referring to men as a race. Here he does not.
Was Eowyn even thinking rationally at this point? She just witnessed her King and uncle receive a fatal wound, plus she's spent every moment she's appeared in the book verbaly penning her own suicide note, so I'd say no. Besides, I wonder if Eowyn even knew of Glorfindel's words, much less had time to stop and consider them before she acted. The Battle of Fornost occurred over 1,000 years prior to ROTK, far to the north of Rohan. Considering hobbits are on the same plane as the boogeyman in Rohan, it raises doubts about how much knowledge Rohan has of the history of Arnor and the destruction of its subsequent realms.
Or is it that ‘hinder’ is not the same as ‘kill’ and no man had ever tried? Well, going back to the Battle of Fornost and the previous battles of Arnor, there were many Elves and Men trying to both hinder and kill the With-king. Even though Glorfindel succeeded in convincing Earnur to let the Witch-King flee in defeat after the Battle of Fornost, he wasn't around to stop him when Earnur rode to Minas Morgal to face the Witch-King and was never heard from again, making him the last King of Gondor before the Stewards took over.
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Cyberia
The Shire
Oct 8 2008, 2:45am
Post #3 of 13
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Now the Nazgul gloats a little to Dernhelm, saying “He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.” He, apparently, being the Witch-king talking in the third person. Dernhelm claims ‘he’ will hinder him if at all possible, to which the Nazgul responds with the oft-misquoted line:
“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”
It's creepy that he said "get out of my way or I WON'T kill you, I will bear thee away..." And what was the threat? To take her before Sauron. Nice foreboding of Sauron.
Incidentally, does this imply that undead beings can hinder him?
Well, only something that exists in the spiritual realm could possibly hurt him. When he says "no living man" he really means "mankind". It was Merry's sword (which glowed red in the spirit realm) that broke the protections on him, then Eowyn could kill him.
Who saw this coming?
Eru. This scene has Eru written all over it, and THIS is why the Valar aren't interfering this time. They don't know what Eru has specifically planned, but that this is his stage, and that the "Rise of Mankind" is the title of the play. Not even Gandalf can get to the battlefield...and he wanted to face the Witchking.
Grey eyes. Neumenor blood. A throwback like Aragorn. The little, beautiful human princess alone on the battlefield with a demon-lord and his beast. She is beyond scared, nearly frozen with fear. The demon is confident. The wind changes, sunlight falls on Eowyn. She removes her disguise. (and yes, this IS reminniscient of Gandalf's "You Shall Not Pass!", because that's what it means when she de-helms)
He challenges her, she stands her ground, not for supremacy on the field, not good vs. evil, but just a daughter defending her father. She kill his beast with one stroke. Then Eru taps Merry on the shoulder, and the fear of the Nazgul is lifted. Merry looks up at the scene: "so brave, so fair....she should not die. At least, she should not die alone."
Somehow a sword forged thousand of years ago, on the other side of the continent, finds it's target finally. A target it had been specifically forged to defeat. "Glad would he have been to know..." And with the last of her strength she strikes the demon down.
Eru is weaving a story, most clearly.
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Milady
Rivendell
Oct 8 2008, 2:59am
Post #4 of 13
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I never really thought of it that way--that Merry might have broken something, allowing a human to kill the Nazgul.
Cool. That is a rather extraordinary chain of events, when you put it that way.
Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.
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Cyberia
The Shire
Oct 8 2008, 3:06am
Post #5 of 13
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I think so, very much.
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad
would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the
North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the
dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though
mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter,
cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to
his will.
It was specifically made to break the protections of the Witchking (not just Nazgul, but him specifically)
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Pukel-man
The Shire
Oct 8 2008, 7:09am
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His father's peril Lausus view'd with grief;
He sigh'd, he wept, he ran to his relief.
And here, heroic youth, 't is here I must
To thy immortal memory be just,
And sing an act so noble and so new,
Posterity will scarce believe 't is true.
Pain'd with his wound, and useless for the fight,
The father sought to save himself by flight:
Incumber'd, slow he dragg'd the spear along,
Which pierc'd his thigh, and in his buckler hung.
The pious youth, resolv'd on death, below
The lifted sword springs forth to face the foe;
Protects his parent, and prevents the blow.
Aeneas thus, o'erwhelmed on ev'ry side,
The storm of darts, undaunted, did abide;
And thus to Lausus loud with friendly threat'ning cried:
"Why wilt thou rush to certain death, and rage
In rash attempts, beyond thy tender age,
Betray'd by pious love?" Nor, thus forborne,
The youth desists, but with insulting scorn
Provokes the ling'ring prince, whose patience, tir'd,
Gave place; and all his breast with fury fir'd.
For now the Fates prepar'd their sharpen'd shears;
And lifted high the flaming sword appears,
Which, full descending with a frightful sway,
Thro' shield and corslet forc'd th' impetuous way,
And buried deep in his fair bosom lay.
It's my (no doubt contentious) belief that Tolkien is essentially correcting the Aeneid here. His wounded old king (Mezentius in the Aeneid) is saved by a beautiful, youthful relative (Lauses in the Aeneid). But, unlike Lausus who dies, Eowyn survives and triumphs. And while Mezentius who, enraged by grief, charges to his death at the hands of his son's killer, Tolkien's own version of this outcome (Eomer's fey charge to ruin) ends in victory and salvation. This whole scene, from the scornful killer with flaming sword down to the old king trapped beneath his fallen horse, echoes the Aeneid. If only Curious were here to pour cold water on my theory . , ,
On to other thoughts. I think the Witch-King's elaborate threat serves primarily as a contrast to Eowyn's directness and courage. The name 'Dernhelm' means secret helmet in Old English so Tolkien is having a bit of a philologist's joke here. It's probably my favourite passage in the whole book.
I think this scene would have worked a lot better in the movie if shown as it was written: from the loving, terrified POV of Merry.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 8 2008, 4:58pm
Post #7 of 13
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“Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”
General thoughts, comments, speculations on the line, how it’s been changed to ‘kill,’ why it may have been remembered wrong?
Eowyn is acknowledging that she is only going to be a speed bump at best, but is still going to try. In my mind that makes her all the more heroic.
BTW, I like the irony of Eomer’s own statement during the earlier conversation with Ghân-buri-Ghân:
“Things unforeseen may hinder us.” Yes indeed.
Incidentally, does this imply that undead beings can hinder him?
Undead women, maybe, but only if they are real babes.
Merry hears what seems to be the strangest noise for the current situation: Dernhelm is laughing, and announces that she isn’t a man—she is in fact Eowyn, and if he tries to hurt Theoden, she will smite him.
Who saw this coming?
Me! Me!
Rather compelling image, isn’t it? A lot of Middle-earth comes from Norse mythology, so do you think maybe Eowyn here is inspired by the valkyries?
I’m thinking of the Hervarar saga, where the maiden Hervor dressed up as a man to confront the dead:
“Hervard, Hjorvard,
Hrani, Angantyr,
may you all be racked
in your ribs rotten,
decay as though dwindling
deep in an anthill,
if you don't hand over
Dvalin's sword;
it does not suit
dead men to grip
a good weapon.
…
“I say you aren't, girl,
like other mortals,
to walk among howes
up here by night,
with graven spear,
and with Gothic steel,
helm and fine mail
before my hall door.”
BTW, like Eowyn Hervor also eventually decided to be a shieldmaiden no more, settled down, started weaving like a good girl, and cleaned up so well she married a nice handsome prince.
‘Helm of her secrecy’ is interesting, especially coming right after the name Dernhelm. If anyone can figure out what meaning to name may have and if it relates to her disguise at all, please share.
“Helm of her secrecy, obscuring enough for a man, but made for a woman.”
“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”
-Ephesians 6:17
And perhaps “Dernhelm” is related to “katakaluptos”, so the act of uncovering her head in defiance of 1 Corinthians 11:5 is Eowyn’s ultimate act of rebellion against the Rohirrim patriarchy which has oppressed her. You go, girl!
Merry suddenly remembers seeing her face at Dunharrow. He resolves to help her if he can. He moves ever so slowly, and the Ringwraith doesn’t see him. The beast rises into the air, and is promptly beheaded by Eowyn. With its death, some darkness is lifted. The Nazgul swings his mace and breaks Eowyn’s arm quite thoroughly, she falls, and he stands over her. Suddenly, he screams: Merry has just stabbed him behind the knee.
Is this in any way reminiscent of the legend of Achilles, and the Achilles heel?
The calf muscle (gastrocnemius) attaches behind the knee, and at the ankle at the Achilles tendon.
Getting whacked behind the knee is extremely painful, and can be quite incapacitating, as I personally found out when I was mugged in the middle of a busy street in broad daylight in Bangkok.
Really, what are the chances that it would be that literal, and a woman could kill him?
It’s like the prophecies of Nostradamus. Something big happens and people twist and worry various passages until they get something to fit. And in retrospect the prophecy suddenly makes perfect sense! It’s known variously as “retroactive clairvoyance” and “hindsight bias”.
Was Eowyn even thinking rationally at this point?
A warrior doesn’t think, they reflexively act. That’s what all the repetitive training is about. So indeed Eowyn has had training, probably from Elfhelm. I bet she’s even ridden with his eored before.
Or is it that ‘hinder’ is not the same as ‘kill’ and no man had ever tried?
Ginger Rogers not only did everything Fred Astaire did, she did it backwards and in high heels.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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batik
Tol Eressea
Oct 9 2008, 2:42am
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and was never heard again in that age of this world. Yeah!
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Incidentally, does this imply that undead beings can hinder him?
"Not by the hand of man will he fall."/"No living man may hinder me!"
I, too, find Merry's role in this interesting.
Hobbits are not "men" are they? (but then again neither are Ents, Eagles, Elves, Dwarves, and so on) Then there's the use of Men vs men. I'm going to take this at face value-- no man/Man (alive or not) was a serious threat.
Really, what are the chances that it would be that literal, and a woman could kill him? Was Eowyn even thinking rationally at this point? Or is it that ‘hinder’ is not the same as ‘kill’ and no man had ever tried?
Could Tolkien have been giving a nod to Kipling's (1911) "The Female of the Species"? Just a few lines here:
When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man,
He will sometimes wiggle sideways and avoid it as he can;
But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail,
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 9 2008, 7:23am
Post #9 of 13
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Éowyn gets the kill, Merry the assist.
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Éowyn couldn't have done it alone. Whether you count him as a Man is irrelevant; his sword had the power to cripple Wiki, which made Éowyn's kill possible.
Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
All this week in the Reading Room!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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a.s.
Valinor
Oct 9 2008, 10:43am
Post #10 of 13
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The comparison to Macbeth has been noted before, specifically the prophecy that "none of woman born" shall harm Macbeth. Macduff, who kills Macbeth, is noted to have been "from his mother's womb untimely ripped" (a Caesarian section) and thus fulfills the deceptively worded prophecy that he was not "of woman born".
There is a great essay by Michael Drout (which Curious and NEB referred to the last time we discussed this chapter) tracing the whole Shakespearian feel of this passage, and to King Lear, or to the themes explicit and implicit in King Lear. One can't fail to notice the similarity, for example, between WiKi's "come not between the Nazgul and his prey" and Lear's "Come not between the dragon and his wrath" (which may be why subconsciously some of us think "the Nazgul" refers to the Fell Beast instead of the WiKi?). Drout says:
in this paper I hope to make a start at a criticism of some of the passages most obviously unlike traditional Modernist literature: the battle of Éowyn against the Lord of the Nazgûl and Denethor's self-immolation. The style of these passages is not, contra some of Tolkien's most perceptive critics, over-wrought or archaic. Rather, Tolkien produces a tight interweaving of literary references—specifically, links to Shakespeare's King Lear in both style and thematic substance—with grammatical, syntactic, lexical, and even aural effects. His writing thus achieves a stylistic consistency and communicative economy that rivals his Modernist contemporaries. At the same time his treatment of Lear shows his engagement with ideas (in this case, the problem of pride and despair among the powerful) that have long been considered among the great themes of English literature
and the entire essay is online here.
As to "who killed the Witch King", again Hammond & Scull weigh in on the issue (boy, aren't you all glad I bought this book so I can refer to it constantly like a broken record!!):
H&S note (referring to an essay by Nancy Martsch) that "the larger credit for the Witch-king's death is best summed up in Gandalf's words in the fair copy manuscript: 'Not by the hand of man was the Lord of the Nazgul doomed to fall, and in that doom placed his trust. But he was killed by a woman and with the aid of a halfling' " (The War of the Ring, p. 390).
So I'd agree with those that say Eowyn got the kill, Merry assisted in making the WiKi vulnerable to Eowyn's strike.
I think someone has already noted here (sorry if I am repeating) that "Dernhelm" literally means "helm of secrecy", so when Tolkien writes "...she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her..." he is being redundant so that we will notice.
Is this in any way reminiscent of the legend of Achilles, and the Achilles heel?
Well, it is and it isn't. An Achilles heel could be allegorically applied here, certainly, since the WiKi has a fatal weakness; he has overlooked the blade of Westernesse forged long ago and bound with a spell that enabled the blade to break the spell that kept the WiKi's undead flesh knit together.
Too bad, WiKi. Bwah-hah-hah!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
"You only see the outside of me"
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 10 2008, 2:45am
Post #11 of 13
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Darkstone, I think we're all hoping
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that one of these days you write an autobiography...
Excellent catch, that earlier "hinder" statement! HoME sheds no light on whether the wording was intended to deliberately tie in. It's more likely that the Witch-king was simply repeating from Éowyn's "I will hinder it, if I may"; but still, it's enough to make one nod and mumble "uh-huh" upon rereads!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Oct 10 2008, 2:58am
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Good point! The blade being "wrought slowly" implies that many enchantments and "runes" were laid on it during its making, ensuring that it would be capable of causing some harm to a creature of Sauron's. Like Frodo's blade, which glowed red when seen in the Wraith-world, this blade must also dwell in "both worlds".
And notice the similarity between this blade and the blade that wounded Frodo: both were blades with spells cast in them, both belonged to one "world" but were designed to be used in the other (Frodo would have been stabbed even if he had not put on the Ring, it would have just taken the Witch-king more time to "find" him), both blades wither and vanish once their missions are accomplished.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Half-elven
Oct 10 2008, 8:12am
Post #13 of 13
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A few thoughts, some to the point
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General thoughts, comments, speculations on the line, how it’s been changed to ‘kill,’ why it may have been remembered wrong?
Where was it changed? In the movie? I haven't noticed that; but it does distract. But see below.
Incidentally, does this imply that undead beings can hinder him?
I wonder. But I think not. In fact, I think that the Army of the Dead wouldn't have followed Aragorn against the Nazgul, which might be a reason for Aragorn to disband it at Pelargir (although it's possible that their original oath was only to march to the South). It might also be a reason (in the movie-context) not to march with them on Mordor, and makes Eowyn's heroics even more important.
One might only wonder what would have happened had a Ringwraith been commanding at Pelargir; and if my idea is correct - then Aragorn's looking at the stone in the Hornburg had a very important consequence: we saw two weeks ago that no less than six (the five who attacked Faramir, and the Wiki) of them were comcentrated at Minas Tirith.
Back then, I suggested the attack by the Morgul-host was not made earlier because of Aragorn (I've argued that no less than five attacks were coordinated, and I think that Tolkien's words in 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol' about the time which has struck, and about this being only one host and not the largest - confirm my idea). But, what probably did change, was the positioning of the Nazgul, as the most powerful (and mobile) of the Dark Lord's armies. And it could easily be that the one who commanded at Pelargir was shifted (I'm sure those attacking Lorien from Dol Guldur where still there, untill the Captains of the West's assault on the Black Gate) - thus enabling the Return of the King.
But why am I posting this here?
Who saw this coming?
I didn't; but I was under ten on my first reading.
Is this in any way reminiscent of the legend of Achilles, and the Achilles heel?
I don't think so; but Darkstone's post reminded me of a very interesting discussion un Jewish Law, which I won't weary you with (assuming the average sib will find it less interesting than I do).
Really, what are the chances that it would be that literal, and a woman could kill him? Was Eowyn even thinking rationally at this point? Or is it that ‘hinder’ is not the same as ‘kill’ and no man had ever tried?
Prophecies never have good chances.
The difference between 'hinder' and 'kill' might reflect on the question of Merry's role which was discussed last thread; clearly, Merry doesn't kill the Morgul-king, but does hinder him - so I would suggest he is not included in the prophecy (as far as I remember, appendix A says as much).
On the other hand, Aragorn did hinder him on Weathertop - so it appears being a mere obstacle is not covered by the prophecy.
"Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart shall not be denied" - Theoden
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