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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Necromancer (Sauron) unaware Bilbo had the ring in Mirkwood?
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 4 2008, 10:40pm

Post #1 of 43 (485 views)
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Necromancer (Sauron) unaware Bilbo had the ring in Mirkwood? Can't Post

The Necromancer dwells in Mirkwood, and when Frodo put the ring on even though he wasn't even near Mordor Sauron became aware of it. Bilboís extensive use of the ring in Mirkwood would have been very dangerous so then Gandalf looks foolish regarding his delay in identifying Bilboís ring as the one ring, (although this could be attributed to his love of the halflings leaf as Saurman told him) Gandalf has known of Sauronís rise in Dol Guldur and gathering of the rings of power for a hundred years. I'm sure they will write around this in the movie being that Tolkien thought it was a stand-alone book when he wrote it.



(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Oct 4 2008, 10:42pm)


Evernight
Rivendell


Oct 4 2008, 11:50pm

Post #2 of 43 (373 views)
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IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron didn't "feel" that the ring was close when Bilbo and the Dwarves were in Mirkwood because he was busy running away from the White Council.

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 4 2008, 11:54pm

Post #3 of 43 (328 views)
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quick question [In reply to] Can't Post

how did the necromancer know about the White Council meeting?



Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 4 2008, 11:58pm

Post #4 of 43 (347 views)
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At the time that Bilbo had the ring...... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron was not looking for the ring. That didn't happen, until Sauron captured, then tortured Gollum for the information. So no wraith world for Bilbo if GdT goes by the book.

May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!


Evernight
Rivendell


Oct 5 2008, 12:07am

Post #5 of 43 (322 views)
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Because... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
how did the necromancer know about the White Council meeting?



Because he had them knocking at his door, trying to kick him out of Dol Guldur.Tongue

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 5 2008, 12:35am

Post #6 of 43 (351 views)
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I've wondered about this myself. [In reply to] Can't Post

It would make sense to me that Bilbo's close proximity to Sauron in Mirkwood would cause Sauron's senses to tingle when Bilbo puts on the Ring - but it doesn't.

What we do have is a comment in LOTR that once Sauron hears of 'Shire' and 'Baggins' he bends all his will and thought upon finding the Ring. So, it seems that Sauron has to be actively searching for the Ring to be sensitive to its whereabouts - and as he wasn't doing that while in Dol Guldur, he didn't feel anything amiss when Bilbo wore it in the forest.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 5 2008, 12:43am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 12:36am

Post #7 of 43 (349 views)
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I got Dol Guldur and Barad-dur confused [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo would be in close proximity with sauron/necromancer because Gandalf would be meeting with the White Council at that time. I stand corrected about the ring though, the necromancer/sauron wouldn't have the ring vision until later and he didn't capture gollum until after Mirkwood. By the way how did they know gollum had the ring to begin with?



(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Oct 5 2008, 12:42am)


Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 5 2008, 12:42am

Post #8 of 43 (310 views)
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This also explains why Sauron didn't know when Gollum wore the ring. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 12:43am

Post #9 of 43 (304 views)
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BUT... [In reply to] Can't Post

How did Sauron know gollum came into contact with the ring in the first place? the orcs captured gollum as we all know.



Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 5 2008, 12:44am

Post #10 of 43 (306 views)
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Who do you mean by "They". [In reply to] Can't Post

 

May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!


Evernight
Rivendell


Oct 5 2008, 12:46am

Post #11 of 43 (307 views)
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No offense MouthofSauron, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you should re-read both The Hobbit and LOTR.

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 12:50am

Post #12 of 43 (296 views)
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even though I've read The Hobbit fifty times? [In reply to] Can't Post

only read LOTR's once but most of this doesn't even happen during The Hobbit or LOTR's like gollum getting captured. Plus this is a good source
http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/default.asp



simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 1:04am

Post #13 of 43 (281 views)
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Fifty times is serious [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're having lots of fun Cool Sauron didn't feel the ring then because he didn't think of the ring then. It's like a thought/feeling that you ignore just because you can't recognize it. It happens often when you find the thought/feeling impossible. So, Sauron knew the ring was lost. He may have felt something but he didn't pay attention to it first because he didn't make the connection with the ring (lost long ago) and second, because he had serious concerns at this moment.

As about the Gollum story - well, lots of spies were walking the land these days. Don't forget the Gollum hid under goblin's caves and goblins weren't on the good side. Not only he hid there but he killed them when he could. They didn't have good feeling for him. And if we recall the Hobbit, in these caves and long corridors lots was heard. Why then not hear the Gollum speaking and singing which he mostly did to celebrate his precious?

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Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 5 2008, 1:13am

Post #14 of 43 (304 views)
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From the book FOTR. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Shadow of the Past

"And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear."

Also about Gollum
Some other fear was on him greater than mine. He muttered that he was going to get his own back. People would see if he would stand being kicked, and driven into a hole and then robbed. Gollum had good friends now, good friends and very strong. They would help him. Baggins would pay for it.
<Snip>
A heavy silence fell in the room. Frodo could hear his heart beating. Even outside everything seemed still. No sound of Sam's shears could now be heard.
"Yes, to Mordor," said Gandalf. "Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So from this, I gather Gollum went to Mordor on his own.


May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!

(This post was edited by Woodyend on Oct 5 2008, 1:19am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 1:27am

Post #15 of 43 (291 views)
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not exactly fifty times but a lot! [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot exactly how gollum was captured by Sauron? something where the elves were taking him through a forest and the orcs ambushed them.



(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Oct 5 2008, 1:29am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 1:28am

Post #16 of 43 (293 views)
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It's not a problem in the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

In The Lord of the Rings as written, Sam can wear the Ring right at the edge of Mordor, and Sauron is none the wiser. Thus Bilbo could likewise wear the Ring in Mirkwood.

However, this gets things backwards: presumably it is because Bilbo was in no danger wearing the magic ring in The Hobbit that Tolkien, for consistency, also made that true of Frodo wearing the One Ring in LotR.

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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 1:33am

Post #17 of 43 (295 views)
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Please someone enlighten me. [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot exactly how gollum was captured by Sauron? and then he gave him the info about the ring ect..



(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 5 2008, 1:39am)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 5 2008, 1:58am

Post #18 of 43 (278 views)
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Gollum was drawn to Mordor by Sauron. [In reply to] Can't Post

He left the Misty Mountains a year or two after losing the Ring to Bilbo, and wandered the lands at night. During his wanderings he heard of Bilbo and the great events around the Lonely Mountain, and Gandalf thought Gollum then tried to make his way to the Shire, but turned aside, instead, to Mordor.

"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge!
"Wretched fool! In that land he would learn much, too much for his comfort, And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken - for examination. ... Through him the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again. He knows where Isildur fell. He knows where Gollum found his ring. He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life. He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil. He knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine, for they are accounted for. He knows that it is the One. And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire.
"The Shire - he may be seeking for it now, if he has not already found out where it lies. Indeed Frodo, I fear that he may even think that the long-unnoticed name of Baggins has become important."

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 5 2008, 1:59am)


Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 5 2008, 2:00am

Post #19 of 43 (256 views)
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If you read my post you would see that... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum went to Mordor on his own.

Also from the book.
The Council of Elrond


"Know also, my friends, that I learned more yet from Gollum. He was loth to speak and his tale was unclear, but it is beyond all doubt that he went to Mordor, and there all that he knew was forced from him. Thus the Enemy knows now that the One is found, that it was long in the Shire; and since his servants have pursued it almost to our door, he soon will know, already he may know, even as I speak, that we have it here."

<Snip> Legolas gives this tale of Gollum.

"It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us at unawares. We drove them off after some time; they were many and fierce, but they came from over the mountains, and were unused to the woods. When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone, and his guards were slain or taken. It then seemed plain to us that the attack had been made for his rescue, and that he knew of it beforehand. How that was contrived we cannot guess; but Gollum is cunning, and the spies of the Enemy are many. The dark things that were driven out in the year of the Dragon's fall have returned in greater numbers, and Mirkwood is again an evil place, save where our realm is maintained.



May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 3:03am

Post #20 of 43 (238 views)
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good stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the info!



Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 5 2008, 3:11am

Post #21 of 43 (229 views)
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Anytime. Oh, and welcome to the board. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm currently re-reading LOTR (I have read it every year for more than 30 years) but I must confess, I needed a refresher on how Gollum was first acquainted with Sauron. Thanks for bringing up the subject.

May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!


Elven
Valinor


Oct 5 2008, 3:15am

Post #22 of 43 (243 views)
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This now seems a bit strange .. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear."


I just saw woodyends quote ... and thought ...

If Sauron thought the ring had perished or been destroyed - by whatever means, Sauron would no longer exist - so I find it strange that Sauron thinks the ring no longer exists.
Or did I miss something Wink

I also think that the short scene we see where Gollum is being tortured, makes a great 'flashback scene' that could nicely tie LOTR in with The Hobbit - if they chose to expand on it.

Cheers
Elven x



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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 3:29am

Post #23 of 43 (240 views)
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I'm surprised he thought Elves destroyed it [In reply to] Can't Post

Because as we all know but Sauron obviously forgot, the One ring can be destroyed only in Mount Doom and he certainly would know if it had been destroyed there.

Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board

I believe


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 3:38am

Post #24 of 43 (237 views)
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gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

"It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us at unawares. We drove them off after some time; they were many and fierce, but they came from over the mountains, and were unused to the woods. When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone, and his guards were slain or taken. It then seemed plain to us that the attack had been made for his rescue, and that he knew of it beforehand. How that was contrived we cannot guess; but Gollum is cunning."

Where were they taking gollum?



Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 3:56am

Post #25 of 43 (234 views)
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As I recall [In reply to] Can't Post

They took pity on him and were taking him for periodic walks in the forest.



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