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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 25 2008, 6:58pm
Post #1 of 35
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The Siege of Gondor IV -- “Will no one go out to him?”
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I apologize for the delay with the rest of this week’s discussion.
This post covers the chapter’s fourth section.
A Nazgûl cry alerts Beregond and Pippin to trouble on the fields near the city: Faramir and three others are being attacked from above. Gandalf appears to drive off the Nazgûl, and rides with Faramir to the Citadel entrace, where Faramir is stunned to see a hobbit in the array of Gondor.
Questions
1. When Pippin and Beregond hear the Nazgûl, they are “frozen as it were to listening stones”. What does that mean?
2. The text says that Pippin recognized the Nazgûl call because “it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish”. But what about three chapters ago –which was just yesterday in the chronology– when “Almost beyond hearing he thought he caught, high and far up in the heavens, a cry: faint, but heart-quelling, cruel and cold. He blanched and cowered against the wall.” Pippin identified it then as “the shadow of doom, a Fell Rider of the air”. Who forgot that moment from “Minas Tirith”: Pippin or Tolkien?
3. I think the chapter’s low point comes in the two paragraphs in which Pippin and Beregond narrate the events on the field below – as Darkstone wrote earlier this week, these sound like the speech of a “play-by-play sports announcer”, and I agree that the passages are artificial. Do you? Tolkien shows in the paragraphs immediately preceding and following these that he can describe the distantly-seen action effectively without this device. So why resort to it at all?
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here? (Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?) And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor?
5. The flying Nazgûl are described as “cruel as death”. Is death “cruel” in Middle-earth? Beregond refers to them as “hell-hawks”; what is “hell” in Middle-earth?
6. Beregond cries “Will no one go out to him?” and runs from the citadel to help. But he’d have to descend six levels of winding road just to leave the city. Others are surely closer to Faramir – why don’t they help?
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he? Why does he come riding from the North?
8. Pippin, crying out on seeing Gandalf, is “like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragment”. I find that simile to be unwieldy and don’t think it adds anything useful. Do you agree?
9. Do Hobbits have races? What kinds of sports are there in Middle-earth?
10. We read that Faramir’s face is that “of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet”. Is that description too explicit, telling rather than showing? And Pippin’s reaction, that here “was one with an air of high nobility .. that he could follow” – is Tolkien telling us how to feel about Faramir, rather that letting us feel it for ourselves based on a presentation of his words and deeds? Or, since we have already met Faramir and presumably formed an opinion of him, do we need any such description of his character here?
11. It says here that Pippin “had liked [Boromir] from the first, admiring the great man’s lordly but kindly manner”. Is there any earlier indication of that in the text?
12. Pippin thinks he could follow Faramir “even under the shadow of the black wings”. Pippin’s very helmet has black wings on it – a coincidence?
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Join us Sep. 22-28 for "The Siege of Gondor".
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 25 2008, 8:33pm
Post #2 of 35
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I'll see what I can do in the limited time I have:
1. When Pippin and Beregond hear the Nazgûl, they are “frozen as it were to listening stones”. What does that mean?
They absorb without reacting.
2. The text says that Pippin recognized the Nazgûl call because “it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish”. But what about three chapters ago –which was just yesterday in the chronology– when “Almost beyond hearing he thought he caught, high and far up in the heavens, a cry: faint, but heart-quelling, cruel and cold. He blanched and cowered against the wall.” Pippin identified it then as “the shadow of doom, a Fell Rider of the air”. Who forgot that moment from “Minas Tirith”: Pippin or Tolkien?
Then it was faint, and he felt rather than heard it. Here it's recognition.
3. I think the chapter’s low point comes in the two paragraphs in which Pippin and Beregond narrate the events on the field below – as Darkstone wrote earlier this week, these sound like the speech of a “play-by-play sports announcer”, and I agree that the passages are artificial. Do you? Tolkien shows in the paragraphs immediately preceding and following these that he can describe the distantly-seen action effectively without this device. So why resort to it at all?
To show us how Beregond reacts to Faramir.
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here? (Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?) And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor?
We've seen five Nazgul at Weathertop, but there they had their Fell Captain, and here they do not.
I assume they pursued Faramir from the crossing of the River, and got 'carried' by the chase. Or Sauron might have identified Denethor strength was ebbing, and felt he should strike at Faramir as the last bastion of Gondor, before Aragorn arrives.
5. The flying Nazgûl are described as “cruel as death”. Is death “cruel” in Middle-earth? Beregond refers to them as “hell-hawks”; what is “hell” in Middle-earth?
Later, Denethor speaks of 'the Heathen Kings'. Gondor is not as un-Christian as the rest of Middle-Earth.
Otherwise, I might think of Utumno.
6. Beregond cries “Will no one go out to him?” and runs from the citadel to help. But he’d have to descend six levels of winding road just to leave the city. Others are surely closer to Faramir – why don’t they help?
Beregond is released from being frozen, and runs without thinking. Others might be running as well - but only Gandalf can reach him on time.
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he? Why does he come riding from the North?
The night before, Faramir lay at Cair Andros. So he also came from the North. It could be that Gandalf was reconnoitring there, and possibly towards Anorien as well - visiting Ingold, and looking for aid coming from Rohan. Waiting for Hirgon? Perhaps even raising Ghan-buri-Ghan?
8. Pippin, crying out on seeing Gandalf, is “like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragment”. I find that simile to be unwieldy and don’t think it adds anything useful. Do you agree?
How did the audience react to Arwen's race to the Ford? Or how do we react to sports?
9. Do Hobbits have races? What kinds of sports are there in Middle-earth?
Well, Frodo says Pippin is the slowest of the three (including Sam), and should be last for the bath...
Also, Bilbo is described (in 'Flies and Spiders') as proficient in quoits, and a few other games. That passage even inspired the sentence about stones in the prologue.
10. We read that Faramir’s face is that “of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet”. Is that description too explicit, telling rather than showing? And Pippin’s reaction, that here “was one with an air of high nobility .. that he could follow” – is Tolkien telling us how to feel about Faramir, rather that letting us feel it for ourselves based on a presentation of his words and deeds? Or, since we have already met Faramir and presumably formed an opinion of him, do we need any such description of his character here?
It tells us about Pippin, and his ability to recognise Faramir's quality. He is faster than Sam in some respects.
11. It says here that Pippin “had liked [Boromir] from the first, admiring the great man’s lordly but kindly manner”. Is there any earlier indication of that in the text?
Pippin is shown admiring him in 'The Ring Goes South'. And when Gandalf says that it was not in vain that Pippin and Merry came on the quest, because of Boromir - I think he m,eans something deeper than only the fact they gave him an opportunity to redeem himself.
12. Pippin thinks he could follow Faramir “even under the shadow of the black wings”. Pippin’s very helmet has black wings on it – a coincidence?
Not mirk-black, but sable - as I've poimted out in my reply to the previous thread.
"Your father is old but not yet dotard" - Denethor
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 25 2008, 9:07pm
Post #4 of 35
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"And soothing voice the listening stones inspire.”
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1. When Pippin and Beregond hear the Nazgûl, they are “frozen as it were to listening stones”. What does that mean?
Perhaps an ironic reference to Horace:
“Thus rose the Theban wall: Amphion’s lyre
And soothing voice the listening stones inspire.”
But of course the horrible cries of the Nazgul are not the soothing voice of Amphion, and instead of raising the walls of Thebes they are meant to throw down the walls of Minas Tirith. Interestingly one is led to contemplate the parallels between gentle Amphion and his rather thick muscle-bound brother Zethus with Faramir and Boromir. (Whoa! And that would connect Gandalf with Hermes!)
There’s also Thoreau’s meditation on how the maker, the sound, and the listener become one, sort of like the observed-observer paradox of the Heisenberg Uncertainy Principle:
“What is the relation between a bird and the ear that appreciates its melody, to whom, perchance, it is more charming and significant than any else? Certainly they are intimately related, and the one was made for the other. It is a natural fact. If I were to discover that a certain kind of stone by the pond-shore was affected, say partially disintegrated, by a particular sound, as of a bird or insect, I see that one could not be completely described without describing the other. I am that rock by the pondside.”
2. The text says that Pippin recognized the Nazgûl call because “it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish”. But what about three chapters ago –which was just yesterday in the chronology– when “Almost beyond hearing he thought he caught, high and far up in the heavens, a cry: faint, but heart-quelling, cruel and cold. He blanched and cowered against the wall.” Pippin identified it then as “the shadow of doom, a Fell Rider of the air”. Who forgot that moment from “Minas Tirith”: Pippin or Tolkien?
Or maybe Pippin is now experienced enough to tell the difference between Khamul and WiKi.
3. I think the chapter’s low point comes in the two paragraphs in which Pippin and Beregond narrate the events on the field below – as Darkstone wrote earlier this week, these sound like the speech of a “play-by-play sports announcer”, and I agree that the passages are artificial. Do you?
I always take what Darkstone says with a grain of salt.
Tolkien shows in the paragraphs immediately preceding and following these that he can describe the distantly-seen action effectively without this device. So why resort to it at all?
It’s to illustrate the fact that Pippin is cowering behind the wall. He can’t see it so it has to be described to him.
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here?
Dayshift. Khamul and the others get stuck with the graveyard shift.
(Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?)
Lesseee…. We last saw them in something soft and flowing…. Ah yes, the Bruinen.
And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor?
Air superiority.
5. The flying Nazgûl are described as “cruel as death”. Is death “cruel” in Middle-earth?
It has its bad days.
Beregond refers to them as “hell-hawks”; what is “hell” in Middle-earth?
Who knew Hel was one of the Valar? I guess Beregond has some knowledge of Anglo-Saxon, er, that is, Rohirrim culture.
6. Beregond cries “Will no one go out to him?” and runs from the citadel to help. But he’d have to descend six levels of winding road just to leave the city. Others are surely closer to Faramir – why don’t they help?
Apparently distance lessens the Nazguls’ paralyzing fear.
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he?
Perhaps he stopped for tea.
Why does he come riding from the North?
Probably hobnobbing with some Elves. (And Tolkien had the nerve to criticize Lewis for throwing in Father Christmas!)
8. Pippin, crying out on seeing Gandalf, is “like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragment”. I find that simile to be unwieldy and don’t think it adds anything useful. Do you agree?
It’s interesting because one way to take “far beyond encouragement” is distance, like a fan way in the back yelling unheard at a rock concert.
9. Do Hobbits have races?
Dunno. But Istari, Rohirrim, and Gondorians do:
“`Now for the last race! ' said Gandalf. 'If the sun is shining outside we may still escape. After me!’”
“Théoden smiled. 'Rather than that I would bear you with me on Snowmane,' he said. 'But at the least you shall ride with me to Edoras and look on Meduseld; for that way I shall go. So far Stybba can bear you: the great race will not begin till we reach the plains.'”
“Shadowfax tossed his head and stamped. But he allowed Beregond to handle his head gently and stroke his great flanks.
'He looks as if he were spoiling for a race, and not newly come from a great journey,' said Beregond.”
What kinds of sports are there in Middle-earth?
Killing things and general sadism:
“Though slow to quarrel, and for sport killing nothing that lived, they were doughty at bay, and at
need could still handle arms.”
“No one answered him; but he saw their faces grey with fear and the horror in their eyes, and he laughed again, for it seemed to him that his sport went well.”
10. We read that Faramir’s face is that “of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet”. Is that description too explicit, telling rather than showing?
Yep.
And Pippin’s reaction, that here “was one with an air of high nobility .. that he could follow” – is Tolkien telling us how to feel about Faramir, rather that letting us feel it for ourselves based on a presentation of his words and deeds?
Exactly.
Or, since we have already met Faramir and presumably formed an opinion of him, do we need any such description of his character here?
It’s called “writer on board.” Like Boromir to Denethor, Faramir is Tolkien’s favorite child. The writer is beating us over the head with how wonderful his kid is. It’s like being bombarded with emails of cute baby pictures.
11. It says here that Pippin “had liked [Boromir] from the first, admiring the great man’s lordly but kindly manner”. Is there any earlier indication of that in the text?
Nope.
12. Pippin thinks he could follow Faramir “even under the shadow of the black wings”.
An interesting parallel to how Legolas and Gimli followed Aragorn into the Paths of the Dead.
Pippin’s very helmet has black wings on it – a coincidence?
Probably not.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 25 2008, 9:12pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 3:28am
Post #5 of 35
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Ah what the heck, I can't avoid this forum forever.
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Please be gentle...
1. When Pippin and Beregond hear the Nazgûl, they are “frozen as it were to listening stones”. What does that mean?
My sense is it is a poetic way to say they were as still as stones while they listened to the noise.
2. The text says that Pippin recognized the Nazgûl call because “it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish”. But what about three chapters ago –which was just yesterday in the chronology– when “Almost beyond hearing he thought he caught, high and far up in the heavens, a cry: faint, but heart-quelling, cruel and cold. He blanched and cowered against the wall.” Pippin identified it then as “the shadow of doom, a Fell Rider of the air”. Who forgot that moment from “Minas Tirith”: Pippin or Tolkien?
Perhaps neither... perhaps the cry was so far away that it sounded like something different than what he heard relatively close in the Marsh.
3. I think the chapter’s low point comes in the two paragraphs in which Pippin and Beregond narrate the events on the field below – as Darkstone wrote earlier this week, these sound like the speech of a “play-by-play sports announcer”, and I agree that the passages are artificial. Do you?
Just one of the difficulties describing a non-linear event in a linear fashion.
Tolkien shows in the paragraphs immediately preceding and following these that he can describe the distantly-seen action effectively without this device. So why resort to it at all?
Maybe he does it this way to impart the feeling that adrenalin produces as a terrifying scene unfolds... kind of incremental, vivid, slow motion?
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here?
Perhaps the riders were still recovering, or they did not want to reveal their full strength.
(Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?)
Were their 5 at Weathertop? Not Nazgul though but their Riders.
And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor?
Thery were out of range of the stronghold and their prey were routing.
5. The flying Nazgûl are described as “cruel as death”. Is death “cruel” in Middle-earth?
Sometimes. Despite Gandalf's speech about death being a nice part of the journey (was this only in the film?), not an end at all, he was definately not a fan of taking a life. This was revealed when he chided Frodo about death and judgement. Perhaps it mattered if death was visited upon someone who was not at peace?
Beregond refers to them as “hell-hawks”; what is “hell” in Middle-earth?
I wonder about this myself.
6. Beregond cries “Will no one go out to him?” and runs from the citadel to help. But he’d have to descend six levels of winding road just to leave the city. Others are surely closer to Faramir – why don’t they help?
Some units are for charging and running the enemy down while others are charged with standing and guarding. Maybe there was no one to give the order.
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he?
Was he in the stacks, or trying to shore up support against Denethor?
Why does he come riding from the North?
Ah, perhaps he was watching for signs of the Rohiram.
8. Pippin, crying out on seeing Gandalf, is “like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragment”. I find that simile to be unwieldy and don’t think it adds anything useful. Do you agree?
I like Darkstone's concert analogy.
9. Do Hobbits have races?
Barrel races and the three-legged variety.
What kinds of sports are there in Middle-earth?
Hunting, riding, shooting, and swordplay.
10. We read that Faramir’s face is that “of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet”. Is that description too explicit, telling rather than showing?
It's better than the sparse "Grim-faced" he describes Bard with. However, if you were on your first time through the book, the description of Faramir's face is vividly descriptive... one can have a face like that even without having been assailed by great fear or anguish.
And Pippin’s reaction, that here “was one with an air of high nobility .. that he could follow” – is Tolkien telling us how to feel about Faramir, rather that letting us feel it for ourselves based on a presentation of his words and deeds?
I think he is telling us a little more about Pippin here, or reinforcing what we already know of Pip. I don't feel he is telling us anything about Faramir since it is Pippin's reaction he is describing.
Or, since we have already met Faramir and presumably formed an opinion of him, do we need any such description of his character here?
Again, he is describing Pippin, not Faramir.
11. It says here that Pippin “had liked [Boromir] from the first, admiring the great man’s lordly but kindly manner”. Is there any earlier indication of that in the text?
Don't recall. But this too reveals the sort of impressions that Pippin forms and what motivates him to follow someone or not.
12. Pippin thinks he could follow Faramir “even under the shadow of the black wings”.
Further information about Pippin.
Pippin’s very helmet has black wings on it – a coincidence?
No. Maybe this is a reference to what service to Gondor was really like, even for the young prince (steward's heir... thing)
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Sep 26 2008, 3:32am)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 3:41am
Post #6 of 35
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*Sharpens knives for response*
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No! Just kidding! Welcome to the Reading Room, and thanks for posting here!
What does ("listening stones") mean?
My sense is it is a poetic way to say they were as still s stone while they listened to the noise.
Very probably you are right, though it occurs to me that there may actually be stones that can listen in Middle-earth.
Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?
Were there five at Weathertop?
Yes, that's what I was thinking of: five Nazgûl were there, on foot but with horses nearby; and five are here on winged beasts. But I'm not sure what it means, and just wanted to see if anyone could make something of it.
Despite Gandalf's speech abot death being a nice part of the journey (was this only in the film?)...
Yes, that was the film. In the book, the "far green country" that movie-Gandalf mentions is instead described by the narrator, twice: in Frodo's second dream at Tom Bombadil's house, and then again as he nears the end of his journey overseas from the Grey Havens. In neither case does the book say that this is the image of death, and in fact it is not.
...he was definitely not a fan of taking a life. This was revealed when he chided Frodo about death and judgement.
Good point!
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Join us Sep. 22-28 for "The Siege of Gondor".
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 26 2008, 3:54am
Post #7 of 35
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Questions
1. When Pippin and Beregond hear the Nazgûl, they are “frozen as it were to listening stones”. What does that mean? Awkward sentence for me, with the "as it were" phrase. I connect that with something like "the way things stand" so...I don't really get this. Is Tolkien saying they were speechless and just standing there?
2. The text says that Pippin recognized the Nazgûl call because “it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish”. But what about three chapters ago –which was just yesterday in the chronology– when “Almost beyond hearing he thought he caught, high and far up in the heavens, a cry: faint, but heart-quelling, cruel and cold. He blanched and cowered against the wall.” Pippin identified it then as “the shadow of doom, a Fell Rider of the air”. Who forgot that moment from “Minas Tirith”: Pippin or Tolkien? Did Pippin hear or *feel* a cry yesterday? Beregond seems not to have heard a sound, but felt *something*. Maybe Tolkien was creating just the threat of the shadow in Ch. 1 and now confirms that it is here.
3. I think the chapter’s low point comes in the two paragraphs in which Pippin and Beregond narrate the events on the field below – as Darkstone wrote earlier this week, these sound like the speech of a “play-by-play sports announcer”, and I agree that the passages are artificial. Do you? Tolkien shows in the paragraphs immediately preceding and following these that he can describe the distantly-seen action effectively without this device. So why resort to it at all?
Well, Tolkien is having Beregrond describe this to Pippin, right? Does kind of take on a Shakespearen-like tone (Hamlet) with Beregond speaking over the action to deliver his interpretation of the events. So yes-the play-by-play announcer handle does fit in a way.
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here? (Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?) And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor? Why not be bold? They don't expect any women warriors do they?
5. The flying Nazgûl are described as “cruel as death”. Is death “cruel” in Middle-earth? Beregond refers to them as “hell-hawks”; what is “hell” in Middle-earth?
To those who have lost children in Middle-Earth, death seems to be especially cruel. Theoden and Denethor certainly mourn their losses. For those who have lived a full live, death seems better accepted by those left behind. Hell=Mordor?
6. Beregond cries “Will no one go out to him?” and runs from the citadel to help. But he’d have to descend six levels of winding road just to leave the city. Others are surely closer to Faramir – why don’t they help?
Perhaps those closer are aware, being able to see from a different vantage point, that help is on the way.
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he? Why does he come riding from the North?
No idea.
8. Pippin, crying out on seeing Gandalf, is “like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragment”. I find that simile to be unwieldy and don’t think it adds anything useful. Do you agree?
It just adds to the character of Pippin for me. Maybe nobody can hear him but he's going to show his enthusiasm anyhow!
9. Do Hobbits have races? What kinds of sports are there in Middle-earth?
Do drinking games count as a sport? Body counts? That's two. 10. We read that Faramir’s face is that “of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet”. Is that description too explicit, telling rather than showing? And Pippin’s reaction, that here “was one with an air of high nobility .. that he could follow” – is Tolkien telling us how to feel about Faramir, rather that letting us feel it for ourselves based on a presentation of his words and deeds? Or, since we have already met Faramir and presumably formed an opinion of him, do we need any such description of his character here? Again, adding to Pippin's character by describing his responses to/thoughts of others.
11. It says here that Pippin “had liked [Boromir] from the first, admiring the great man’s lordly but kindly manner”. Is there any earlier indication of that in the text?
Maybe Boromir's blowing his horn as the Company left Rivendell, then having Elrond chew on him a little for that gave Pippin the impression that they had something in common!
12. Pippin thinks he could follow Faramir “even under the shadow of the black wings”. Pippin’s very helmet has black wings on it – a coincidence? Are the wings actually black or just shaped like raven wings. He was dressed in black and silver, we read. Black hauberk, black surcoat, ???-colored helm. What was silver other than the broidered token of the Tree and the silver star?
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 26 2008, 4:02am
Post #8 of 35
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Do you think this chapter pretty much shines a light a Pippin--at least so far? A couple of your responses seemed to imply that--as did mine. Guess I should read then reply, eh?
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 26 2008, 4:05am
Post #9 of 35
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the stones that listen...I wondered about that too because of the Seeing Stones, Amon Hen (sight) and Amon Lhaw (hearing). Hmmm hearing...listening. Gotta be some connection.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 4:13am
Post #10 of 35
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It's a little harsh to see Faramir merely as a device for revealing Pippin... the Hobbocentric world view, eh? No really Pippin and Faramir (but moreso Pippin in this chapter -- which I must reread) are revealed by their feelings towards each other. I wonder if Faramir's thoughts about Frodo and Gollum is where Tolkien gives us a better description of Faramir?
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Sep 26 2008, 4:13am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 4:19am
Post #11 of 35
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of course! I got hung up on seeing and had not considered hearing. I doubt there's tasting stones though ;) Sorry friends.
Thank you NEB for finally helping me clear up a long standing issue (and so delicately at that). I often forget that Ringwraiths -- not their mounts -- are the Nazgul.
As for 5? Wasn't that the squad size from JRR's British Infantry days?
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Sep 26 2008, 4:20am)
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 26 2008, 4:25am
Post #12 of 35
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"Window on the West" or "The Forbidden Pool" has been the "wow!-Faramir" chapter for me (not going to re-read that tonight to figure out which) That's funny because not too long along the issue of Tolkien presenting each character as the absolute-"ta-da" best was brought up (by someone somewhere in a recent RR discussion) and I am so finding that to be true--in the nicest of ways. Just got "wowed" about Theoden in this book-somewhere. (probably will re-read for that piece of info...)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 4:35am
Post #13 of 35
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Why are the Nazgûl so bold as to strike within enemy territory?
Why not be bold? They don't expect any women warriors, do they?
I think only the Witch-king has any assurance of safety from "the hand of man". He apparently is back in Minas Morgul, preparing for Sauron's big kick-off party. And since Legolas' crack shot (upstream, 17 days earlier) the Nazgûl know they can be dismounted even in the air. In fact, the text here is clear that they fly "almost within bowshot of the walls" (my emphasis). So this is a daring venture for them, Sauron's boldest attack yet on Gondor.
Pippin "had liked [Boromir] from the first"...Is there any earlier indication of that?
Maybe Boromir blowing his horn as the Company left Rivendell, then Elrond chewing on him ... gave Pippin the impression that they had something in common!
Fun! And your comment makes me remember that Boromir and Pippin both threw stones that disturbed the creatures of (or near) Moria.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 26 2008, 7:42am
Post #15 of 35
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1. When Pippin and Beregond hear the Nazgûl, they are “frozen as it were to listening stones”. What does that mean?
I don't know but it reminds me of this from the Stairs of Cirith Ungol:
[Frodo] laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth. To Sam suddenly it seemed as if all the stones were listening...
It's as if "inanimate" objects (assuming anything is inanimate in Middle-earth) are forced to listen against their will.
2. The text says that Pippin recognized the Nazgûl call because “it was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish”. But what about three chapters ago –which was just yesterday in the chronology– when “Almost beyond hearing he thought he caught, high and far up in the heavens, a cry: faint, but heart-quelling, cruel and cold. He blanched and cowered against the wall.” Pippin identified it then as “the shadow of doom, a Fell Rider of the air”. Who forgot that moment from “Minas Tirith”: Pippin or Tolkien?
I think the reference to the Marish is because Pippin recognizes the kind of call that is a signal, as opposed to just getting the feeling of fear that he associates with the Black Riders generally (and is what happened in the Minas Tirith chapter). Here's what he heard in the Marish: 'A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature ... answered by another cry, fainter and further off... "And what do you think that was?" Pippin asked .... "If it was a bird, it was one that I never heard in the Shire before." "It was not bird or beast," said Frodo. "It was a call, or a signal - there were words in that cry, though I could not catch them."'
Perhaps that's the kind of call Pippin hears again right now - the Nazgul are calling to each other as they coordinate their attack.
3. I think the chapter’s low point comes in the two paragraphs in which Pippin and Beregond narrate the events on the field below – as Darkstone wrote earlier this week, these sound like the speech of a “play-by-play sports announcer”, and I agree that the passages are artificial. Do you? Tolkien shows in the paragraphs immediately preceding and following these that he can describe the distantly-seen action effectively without this device. So why resort to it at all?
I assume Tolkien is actually going for the impression you describe - a feeling of distancing, a sense that we (and Pippin, and Beregond) are helpless spectators at something too far away to see properly (in fact, it's really another way of attenuating the "magic" too - as so many magical effects only "seem" to happen, seeing them at this distance adds yet another veil over Gandalf's powers).
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here? (Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?) And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor?
I've never wondered why there are five Nazgul, or where the other four might be. They don't appear to have been drawn off by Gandalf, as they were last time. They are bold because they know that Minas Tirith's leadership is weak and ready to fall. In fact they probably know that Faramir is the last strength of Gondor, so attacking him while he's exposed is worth the risk.
5. The flying Nazgûl are described as “cruel as death”. Is death “cruel” in Middle-earth? Beregond refers to them as “hell-hawks”; what is “hell” in Middle-earth?
Oh yes, death is bitter and cruel in Middle-earth. The idea of its being a gift seems pretty ironic to those who receive this "gift" I think. Even Arwen understands that in the end. Hell is the "abyss" - the fires under the earth. Which makes a volcano a mouth of "hell", and associates the Nazgul, as defenders of Mount Doom, literally with "hell".
6. Beregond cries “Will no one go out to him?” and runs from the citadel to help. But he’d have to descend six levels of winding road just to leave the city. Others are surely closer to Faramir – why don’t they help?
The closer you are the more likely you are to be overcome by the fear the Nazgul inspire. Maybe Beregond's love for Faramir could overcome it, but no one else in that demoralised city seems able to do so.
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he? Why does he come riding from the North?
Gandalf doesn't believe in giving an account of his movements to just anyone. I really don't know where he might have been. I bet Tolkien knew though!
8. Pippin, crying out on seeing Gandalf, is “like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragment”. I find that simile to be unwieldy and don’t think it adds anything useful. Do you agree?
No, I think it adds a sense of distance and helplessness - and also that sense that an onlooker often has of being emotionally completely bound up in what he sees, despite having no actual involvement at all. Pippin is a mere spectator here, watching a great event unfold below him.
9. Do Hobbits have races? What kinds of sports are there in Middle-earth?
Well, Frodo and Sam talk about being on the "last lap". I think Middle-earth is just our world seen through a particular filter. Just because certain things are filtered out and not spoken of doesn't mean they don't exist at all. Hobbits probably have running races, pony races (steeplechases without the steeples, maybe?), and village races as part of the general fun of fair-days (giving "pig-a-back" rides to the kids and suchlike?)
10. We read that Faramir’s face is that “of one who has been assailed by a great fear or anguish, but has mastered it and now is quiet”. Is that description too explicit, telling rather than showing? And Pippin’s reaction, that here “was one with an air of high nobility .. that he could follow” – is Tolkien telling us how to feel about Faramir, rather that letting us feel it for ourselves based on a presentation of his words and deeds? Or, since we have already met Faramir and presumably formed an opinion of him, do we need any such description of his character here?
I think it's telling us more about Pippin than Faramir, and I think, by extension, since Pippin is our eyes in Gondor, it's telling us what the people of Gondor see when they look at Faramir.
11. It says here that Pippin “had liked [Boromir] from the first, admiring the great man’s lordly but kindly manner”. Is there any earlier indication of that in the text?
I don't believe there's much sympathy for Boromir until after he dies. But that's typical of how people remember - their memories are coloured by later events. Boromir died to save Pippin, so his opinions have changed in retrospect.
12. Pippin thinks he could follow Faramir “even under the shadow of the black wings”. Pippin’s very helmet has black wings on it – a coincidence?
I don't think the two are connected, except in the general sense that was discussed earlier - that black can be both good and bad, depending on its context (when associated with silver/stars, it's good; when there's unrelieved blackness, or relieved only by livid colour, it's usually evil). Birds too can be both good or bad (someone mentioned the raven/crow divide earlier). Of course the Nazgul aren't mounted on birds at all, but unnatural winged creatures - definitely evil!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Sep 26 2008, 7:47am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 8:32am
Post #16 of 35
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"They are the Nazgûl, neither living nor dead"
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...said Strider, in the Prancing Pony, long ago, and in both book and movie. So, I don't see any confusion between the Nazgûl/Ringwraiths and the Fell Beasts (as good a name as any) that they're currently using for aerial reconnaissance.
IMO Wiki's line referred to not coming between himself and his prey, Théoden, and allowing his Beast to feed on the still-living King was in keeping with his role as predator here.
Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Sep 26 2008, 8:34am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 8:46am
Post #17 of 35
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...before I get back to work on my assignment for next week!
4. Why are there five Nazgûl here? (Where else have we seen five Nazgûl?) And why are they so bold as to strike within enemy territory, so close the stronghold of Gondor?
As SirDennisC said, there were five at Weathertop. This is a show of force; since the Black Rider expedition, we've only seen them singly (I think... two at most). Right now it's fair to assume that one or two are flying reconnaissance over Rohan and keeping an eye on Isengard, and maybe a couple helping with the war in the North. The show of force here is in the vanguard of the mighty army that's about to strike.
7. It’s about six o’clock in the evening; Pippin noted that Gandalf has been absent since before noon. Where was he? Why does he come riding from the North?
He's checking out what's happening with the invasion: Cair Andros is fallen (as someone else noted, he brings this as news, not knowing that Denethor is using the palantir) and the enemy is blocking the road from Anorien. Because of Shadowfax, he can quickly scout out things like this, whereas Ingold and his colleagues appear to be on foot.
Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 1:59pm
Post #18 of 35
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...Cair Andros is fallen (as someone else noted, he [Gandalf] brings this as news, not knowing that Denethor is using the palantír...
This is the evening of March 10. Gandalf brings the news of the island's fall to Denethor near midday on March 13. (Denethor learned of it on the evening of March 12.) Faramir himself has just ridden from Cair Andros. While Appendix B says that Cair Andros falls today, I argue below that date seems to be a mistake.
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 2:02pm
Post #19 of 35
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(and you of all people might have been expected to catch it!)
The Rangers aren't in sable; they are in dark grey, and Arwen's standard is tied in black.
The only sable-clad host I can remember in the bboks, is the Morgul army Frodo sees. Silly me!
Pippin's hauberk is jet.
But I think there are differeneces between the types of black - I think the black shadow of the Nazgul's wings resembles rather Ungoliant's Unlight.
Compare also the passage in 'Shelob's Lair' which explains why the Torech Ungol darkness was worse than Moria.
"Your father is old but not yet dotard" - Denethor
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 2:25pm
Post #20 of 35
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Hardly! But for the record:
The Dunlendings attacking Helm's Deep have sable shields.
The Morgul-host, as you note, was all in sable.
Aragorn's banner is described as sable at Cormallen.
Pippin is wearing silver and sable at the feast there.
As he is again when he confronts a ruffian in the Shire.
And the sable banner of the kings is mentioned, in contrast to the Stewards' flag, in Appendix A.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 26 2008, 2:38pm
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 6:00pm
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in the thread below, it's really difficult to keep the timeline straight here ;-)
Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 26 2008, 9:09pm
Post #23 of 35
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The image is of listeners frozen into immobility by fear. But the notion of "listening stones" reminds me of two other Tolkien references: the statues made by the drúedain, as seen in LOTR and also in the story "The Faithful Stone" in Unfinished Tales; and the Silent Watchers of the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 26 2008, 9:18pm
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Do the folk of Gondor know that Sauron can see them in the palantír? //
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