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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Chapter 3: "The Muster of Rohan"- The Ride to Edoras and to War

Child of Manwe
Rivendell


Sep 21 2008, 5:08pm

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Chapter 3: "The Muster of Rohan"- The Ride to Edoras and to War Can't Post

Here is the last installment of the third chapter.

The next day the Riders make ready and start for Edoras. I like the little "preview" of Dernhelm.


Quote
But when they had almost come to the end of the line one looked up glancing keenly at the hobbit. A young man, Merry thought as he returned the glance, less in height and girth than most. He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.


Whoa, Tolkien, why so morbid now? Why do you think that Tolkien put in that snippet?

Then there is this sweet Beowulf-esque poem about the riding of the Rohirrim. I would put it here but it is rather long.

What does the poem say about Tolkien and his literary genius? I know that he was professor at Oxford on the Norse and that kind of thing. What do you 'sibs think about the poem?

So they get to Edoras and Merry is still pleading to go. Then a Rider comes up unnoticed and offers to take Merry on his horse. Turns out to be the hopeless Rider he saw at the Hold. His name is Dernhelm.

Not meaning to cross sub-boards here, but why do you think the movie and the book are so different at this point? I think it would have been more dramatic to have Merry picked up by a mysterious rider, and keep the audience in suspense until Eowyn/Dernhelm kills the Witch King. What do you think?

Any other thoughts on this chapter?

Thanks all for listening to me for my first critical chapter discussion. Hope you all enjoyed it!

"Fear, Fire, Foes...Awake! Awake!
Fire, Foes! Awake! Awake!"

ringwraiths27

"Do you think we look mean enough, Sauron?"


(This post was edited by Child of Manwe on Sep 21 2008, 5:10pm)


batik
Tol Eressea


Sep 22 2008, 12:39am

Post #2 of 16 (1342 views)
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call me dernhelm [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Whoa, Tolkien, why so morbid now? Why do you think that Tolkien put in that snippet?


If Tolkien is informing us that Merry sees "the face without hope who goes in search of death", what does this say to us about Merry's decision to ride with this person later? Both have reached the point of desperation?


Quote

What does the poem say about Tolkien and his literary genius? I know that he was professor at Oxford on the Norse and that kind of thing. What do you 'sibs think about the poem?


For me- the poem provides a quick description of Theoden's journey to/from Edoras. Fairly easy to follow these parts of his journey without loads of detail. Good move on Tolkien's part to get the reader from *A* to *B* to *C* in a less time consuming manner.

Anyone know what Dernhelm means?



Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 22 2008, 2:42am

Post #3 of 16 (1328 views)
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About the poem... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm eternally grateful to NZ Strider, who was a regular here a few years ago, for his outstanding discussions of Tolkien's poetry, as in this post (from an earlier discussion).

This particular verse is an example of Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse, which is fitting, since the Rohirrim are patterned on Anglo-Saxon culture in many respects.

Some highlights:

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The core metrical features of traditional Germanic alliterative verse are as follows:

* A long-line is divided into two half-lines. Half-lines are also known as verses or hemistichs; the first is called the a-verse (or on-verse), the second the b-verse (or off-verse).
* A heavy pause, or cæsura, separates the verses.
* Each verse usually has two strongly stressed syllables, or "lifts".
* The first lift in the b-verse nearly always alliterated with either or both lifts in the a-verse.
* The second lift in the b-verse does not alliterate with the first lifts.


Thus we have:

From dark Dunharrow / in the dim morning
with thane and captain / rode Thengel’s son:
to Edoras he came, / the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens / mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers / were in gloom mantled.

...etc.





Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 22 2008, 4:45am

Post #4 of 16 (1278 views)
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It's not as dark in the movie. [In reply to] Can't Post


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Why do you think the movie and the book are so different at this point?



In the book, it's dark for the entire journey from Dunharrow to Minas Tirith, and so it would be easier to mistake Éowyn for a male rider. The filmmakers, apparently doubtful that they could make a long period of darkness visually interesting, opted to omit that book-element from their adaptation. In full light, it is all the more unbelievable that Éowyn could pass unnoticed as "Dernhelm".

Thanks for leading this chapter, Child of Manwe! I'm sorry not to have been able to reply, but I hope to get back to some of your questions once my own week (about to start) is under way.

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Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 22 2008, 4:52pm

Post #5 of 16 (1308 views)
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Homicidal (1961) ***huge ending spoiler!!*** [In reply to] Can't Post

Whoa, Tolkien, why so morbid now?

He’s merely continuing Eowyn’s mood.


Why do you think that Tolkien put in that snippet?

To say “Here’s Eowyn!”


What does the poem say about Tolkien and his literary genius?

He is.


I know that he was professor at Oxford on the Norse and that kind of thing. What do you 'sibs think about the poem?

I like to sing it to the tune of “Garryowen”.


Not meaning to cross sub-boards here, but why do you think the movie and the book are so different at this point?

Does anyone really not connect Dernhelm and Eowyn?


I think it would have been more dramatic to have Merry picked up by a mysterious rider, and keep the audience in suspense until Eowyn/Dernhelm kills the Witch King. What do you think?

First we’d lose great dramatic moments like Eowyn’s “Death! Death! Death!” moment, her pre-WiKi fighting, and her reaction to the Fell Beast attack on Theoden. Second, Miranda Otto’s eyes are too distinctive. (IMHO. Though purists have maintained than no one can identify someone else by eyes alone.) Third, her voice is also distinctive so she’d have to either be totally silent, or be distractingly dubbed like “Jean Arless” in William Castle’s similarly laughable gender-disguise film “Homicidal” (1961).




Finally, Merry would come off as incredibly stupid.


Any other thoughts on this chapter?

Nice.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 22 2008, 6:10pm

Post #6 of 16 (1322 views)
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I didn't. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Does anyone really not connect Dernhelm and Éowyn?


But I was twelve years old, and not very quick.

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FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 22 2008, 6:59pm

Post #7 of 16 (1278 views)
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Maybe 12 is a bit young [In reply to] Can't Post

but most older readers, you'd think, would know enough about storytelling conventions to realize that this unknown rider isn't going to be someone completely new to the story. It doesn't take a lot of ingenuity to work out that it must be the one character we already know who is in despair and wanting to ride to war. Females disguised as males are a literary convention too, at least as far back as Shakespeare, which also helps us to connect the dots.

Movie conventions are at least as strong - I don't think many viewers would be fooled by an "unknown" rider suddenly offering Merry a lift. But I also agree with Darkstone's reasoning regarding the dramatic possibilities of allowing us to see Eowyn's reactions as she steels herself for battle, sees Theoden thrown down, and faces up to the Witch King. The book, as usual, tells the story through the eyes of a hobbit, whereas in a film we see the characters with our own eyes, and are able to relate to Eowyn directly.

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 23 2008, 10:29pm

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I wonder what stories Merry had read. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Sep 23 2008, 10:29pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 24 2008, 4:18pm

Post #9 of 16 (1278 views)
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I think he's mostly into non-fiction ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, as Sam realizes in relation to Gollum ("even Gollum might be good in a tale, better than he is to have by you, anyway"), things don't always seem the same in real life as they do in fiction. The convention of the disguised hero that works so well on paper is much harder to pull off in real life, since we recognize people by their movements and voice as much as by their face. In movies, too, whether it's Superman or the Man in the Iron Mask, I think the audience is normally allowed into the secret, probably because otherwise they'd figure it out anyway and feel cheated, whereas once they know, they seem willing to suspend their disbelief regarding other characters' inability to penetrate the disguise.

Shakespeare seems to have got away with the woman-disguised-as-a-man trick, mainly because his "women" were men! But modern stagings of As You Like it or whatever, with a woman actually playing the female character who's disguised as a boy, tend to need a lot of suspension of disbelief.

I'm no movie buff, but perhaps you or someone else who is could tell us of any films you know of that keep the audience in the dark about a character (one we already know) who later appears in disguise.

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song



Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 26 2008, 5:06pm

Post #10 of 16 (1243 views)
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Christopher Reeve [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm no movie buff, but perhaps you or someone else who is could tell us of any films you know of that keep the audience in the dark about a character (one we already know) who later appears in disguise.

There were some people who were convinced that Clark Kent and Superman in "Superman The Movie" (1978) were played by entirely different actors.

Basil Rathbone had some pretty good disquises in the Sherlock Holmes films of the 1930s, though this was helped by his characters skulking in the background.

Most of the time, though, there is usually something distinctive about an actor that gives them away no matter how good the makeup. The only thing that really works is the old "Mission: Impossible" trick, where you substitute a different actor entirely for the "disguise" and then do a cut during the "unmasking" where you resubstitute the original actor. That's really the only way I think it could work for Dernhelm. Though perhaps the very under-rated actress Hudson Leick just might have a chance to pull it off. She's extremely good with body language, so she could have done a Christopher Reeve and convinced us that Eowyn and Dernhelm were two entirely different people. (But I dunno about two entirely different genders.)

Ultimately though we come back to the question how would Eowyn be skilled enough in disguise, body language, and voice to be able to pass herself off as a male? Especially to people who knew her like Merry and Elfhelm?

In the end, yes, it requires a suspension of belief on the audience. For example, no matter how good the makeup is for Mrs. Doubtfire, you can still tell that's Robin Williams, and if you let yourself think you can't help but wonder how the heck his ex-wife can't see it.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 26 2008, 9:05pm

Post #11 of 16 (1251 views)
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And Princess Leia [In reply to] Can't Post

as the Bounty Hunter at the start of Return of the Jedi. I thought of that one after I posted. She certainly had me fooled! But it was dark, and there was that voice distortion thing going on.


In Reply To

Ultimately though we come back to the question how would Eowyn be skilled enough in disguise, body language, and voice to be able to pass herself off as a male? Especially to people who knew her like Merry and Elfhelm?



In the book, Merry doesn't know Eowyn all that well - nothing like as well as he does in the movie. And Merry's such a nerdy guy - I don't think he's very quick about things like this. I bet Pippin would have figured it out in a heartbeat!

And I've always suspected that Elfhelm knew perfectly well what was going on, not just about Merry the left luggage, but about Eowyn too.


Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 26 2008, 9:16pm

Post #12 of 16 (1236 views)
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"But it was dark" [In reply to] Can't Post

As it is also every time Merry sees Dernhelm.

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FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 27 2008, 12:47pm

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Very true [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see a problem with Merry not recognizing Eowyn in the book - it's a standard literary convention, and easy enough to suspend one's disbelief about (although I find it hard to believe that many adult readers wouldn't have a pretty strong suspicion about who's under that visor, so it's more about suspension of disbelief than actual suspense). Also, in the book Merry is not present for many of the scenes with Eowyn (since Aragorn goes on to Dunharrow ahead of the others), whereas the movements are simplified in the movie, with everyone meeting at Edoras and then travelling on to Dunharrow together, so Merry would know Eowyn quite well (there's a nice little private scene between them too).

Still, I expect Eowyn's identity could have been disguised in the movie quite successfully, if the filmmakers were willing to give up their focus on Eowyn's reaction to what she goes through on her journey to the Pelennor Fields. A lot of the male Riders were played by women, after all, so she'd have blended right in there! But one of the biggest differences between the book and the films, I find, is the films' focus on the interior life of all the characters, compared to the more external, hobbits'-eye view we get in the book.

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 27 2008, 3:37pm

Post #14 of 16 (1228 views)
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Isn't that odd? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But one of the biggest differences between the book and the films, I find, is the films' focus on the interior life of all the characters, compared to the more external, hobbits'-eye view we get in the book.


Since fiction is better equipped than cinema to present characters' inner thoughts, isn't it odd that in this case the book and film took opposite approaches?

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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 27 2008, 7:01pm

Post #15 of 16 (1226 views)
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Not odd at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

The greatest challenge in a realistic medium (film, theatre, opera) is presenting a character's inmost thoughts, and success in doing so is highly valued. Wagner, for example, portrayed his characters' thoughts through the music: often the singer is actually singing an accompaniment to themes being presented orchestrally, so you know what's in their minds. Shakespeare used soliloquies.

In fiction, it's much easier, and authors actually use restraint and subtlety to avoid giving away too much. Think what we'd have lost if we were told what Denethor was thinking here.





Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 27 2008, 8:19pm

Post #16 of 16 (1252 views)
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It does seem odd [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Since fiction is better equipped than cinema to present characters' inner thoughts, isn't it odd that in this case the book and film took opposite approaches?



I think that's because Tolkien doesn't use the storytelling techniques of modern (19th-20th century) realistic fiction, with fully-rounded characters whose thoughts we are privy to via an omniscient narrator. Instead he uses a different technique which I assume was inspired by his knowledge of medieval literature and his desire to create a work that could have been written by the "medieval" characters who inhabit it. So we see into the minds of very few characters, other than the hobbits, and see most of the other characters only through the hobbits' eyes. We are left to draw our own conclusions about everybody else, which gives great scope for every reader to interpret the characters in their own way.

Perhaps another odd thing is that one of Peter Jackson's most basic aims with LotR was to use a "realistic" approach to make a fantasy movie, something that he saw as a departure (I don't know enough about fantasy movies to know how true that is, but I suppose they tend towards the stylized "high-heroic" characterization that Tolkien more-or-less invented). And so Jackson does allow us into the minds of all the characters, and into private meetings that we don't witness in the book (presumably because the hobbit "authors" had no access to them). So, for example, instead of the mystery figure she is in the book, movie-Eowyn at the Pelennor shows us what it's like to be a woman in this quintessentially men's world - horrified at first by the war-cries of the men around her, but finally raising her own voice above theirs as she summons up the blood. I love that moment - I've never been much interested in battle scenes, but the charge of the Rohirrim gets me every time, and I think it's because Eowyn's reactions bring it all home to me.

So perhaps we could say that both Tolkien and Jackson chose a counterintuitive approach to their storytelling. Tolkien chose not to use the typical literary style of his contemporaries. And Jackson chose not to use the typical cinematic style of other fantasy directors. And I have to agree with you. It is odd! But satisfyingly so, I find.



Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song


 
 

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