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Chapter 3: "The Muster of Rohan"- The Encampment

Child of Manwe
Rivendell


Sep 16 2008, 5:43pm

Post #1 of 8 (1085 views)
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Chapter 3: "The Muster of Rohan"- The Encampment Can't Post

So now that Dunhere was done here (sorry...read to many replies on the trouble between Orcs and Ents in Main) telling Theoden how things stood, the King's company rides in to the valley proper and continues to the Hold.

I have always wondered about the Pukel men. Who were they? Were they "the giants from the sea that 'made' Helm's Deep?

At last they make it to the Firienfeld. I really like how PJ made the movie version of the Hold to look almost exactly like the book.


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Dividing the upland into two there marched a double line of unshaped standing stones that dwindled into the dusk and vanished in the trees.


I know that the Hold made a good defense position, but why did Rohirrim make it into a fortress if they were so afraid of the Dwimorberg and what lay beyond? Doesn't make much sense to me that they would do that.

The meeting of Merry and Eowyn (is it for the first time?) is interesting. She seems very capable to order things about, and had everything prepared.

Why is Merry able to see Eowyn's emotional state when no one else can? Has Eomer and Theoden been around Eowyn so much that it just seems to them to be her normal countenance?

The fact that Eomer is so disheartened at Aragorn's passing down the Dimholt is a little funny.

Did he not know that Aragorn was Isildur's heir and able to command the Army of Dead?

Then we leave Merry all by himself, just like Pippin, shoved out of the way by the Big Folk usually do. We also leave him hungry, just like Pippin, and in search of food.

"Fear, Fire, Foes...Awake! Awake!
Fire, Foes! Awake! Awake!"

ringwraiths27

"Do you think we look mean enough, Sauron?"


batik
Tol Eressea


Sep 17 2008, 1:31am

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"...our hope dwindles." [In reply to] Can't Post

I've no idea about the Pukel-Men but the description (huge, clumsy-limbed, stumpy arms, fat bellies) is as unflattering as that of the trolls (ugly, stupid).

I suppose having the Haunted Mountain at one's back may have made some sense. An attack from behind would have been unlikely since the route was, assumedly, unused by other (living) folk.

Merry and Eowyn: both odd- (non)-Men out in this situation. Theoden does recognize Eowyn's grief and is not completely in the dark as to the reason for it.

I believe Eomer is aware of Aragorn's lineage but is very disappointed that his brother-in-arms has taken a different path-especially a path that, according the Rohirrim legend, is impassable.


(This post was edited by batik on Sep 17 2008, 1:32am)


Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea


Sep 17 2008, 3:36am

Post #3 of 8 (736 views)
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thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always wondered about the Pukel men. Who were they? Were they "the giants from the sea that 'made' Helm's Deep?
I've always thought they were modeled after the wild men -- you know, Ghan-buri-ghan and his people (can't think of the proper name for that tribe).

The fact that Eomer is so disheartened at Aragorn's passing down the Dimholt is a little funny.
Did he not know that Aragorn was Isildur's heir and able to command the Army of Dead?

Knowing the facts and fully absorbing the implications are two different things. It makes me think of the stories of the apostles hiding locked in the upper room in fear and despair after Jesus' death on the cross. They "knew" he was the son of God. He told them that "the temple would be destroyed and then rebuilt in three days." (not exact quote but close enough). Well, that's a bit obscure. They still freaked out, and understandably so. Eomer knows Aragorn's lineage and must be aware of the legend that Isildur's heir would be able to summon the Dead to fulfill their oath, but it's hard to keep that in mind when Aragorn rides into the haunted mountain toward certain death.

Where's Frodo?


FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 18 2008, 7:46am

Post #4 of 8 (682 views)
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What does Eomer know? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did he not know that Aragorn was Isildur's heir and able to command the Army of Dead?

Even Aragorn doesn't know that he can command the Army of the Dead. He's finally been convinced by the messages from Rivendell that he has to try. But he doesn't have a free pass - being Isildur's heir only means he has some chance, instead of no chance, of making it through and raising the Dead.

As for Eomer, and Eowyn, they have grown up "knowing" that this path leads only to a fearful death. It takes a long time to get your head around a new idea that fundamentally changes a belief you've held all your life. Look how difficult it was for people to accept that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, for example, after Galileo made his observations.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Ufthak
Rivendell


Sep 18 2008, 12:52pm

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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

a) I think the Pukel-men are the forerunners of the Woses. The 'Giants From The Sea' seems a euphemism for the tall men of Numenor, to me.

b) Two reasons: first, as already mentioned, if your fortress is in a scary place it's less likely that others will attack. Secondly, a lot of people like to keep an eye on something scary. If the Dwimorberg is scary it can be seen as a threat. Best thing to do to reassure people that nothing nasty's coming out of it is having a few armed men nearby.

c) Merry is not a warrior, not someone whose entire life revolves around hardening the heart for battle and so on. He's a hobbit from the Shire where life is peaceful, and he's a kindly soul as well.

d) Eomer's just worried. The tale of Isildur's heir is a tale, but Eomer knows that no-one comes out of there alive. It's an old tale vs what he knows to be fact, which means he won't believe the tale's truth until he sees the proof.

I can't get positive
Just get it over with
Today is hate the world day

~The Wildhearts


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a.s.
Valinor


Sep 20 2008, 3:50pm

Post #6 of 8 (672 views)
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Pukel-men [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always wondered about the Pukel men. Who were they? Were they "the giants from the sea that 'made' Helm's Deep?




Well, I don't know, but I have Hammond & Scull's LOTR Companion and can at least quote!

Cool

Here's what they have to say (minus all accent marks for lack of time):



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Pukel-men is 'a Rohan name for the effigies of men of a vanished race. It represents Old English pucel (still surviving as puckle), one of the forms of the puk-stem (widespread in England, Wales, Ireland, Norway and Iceland) referring to a devil, or to a minor sprite, e.g. Puck, and often applied to ugly misshapen persons' (Nomenclature). When Merry sees the Wose, Ghan-buri-Ghan, in book V, Chapter 5, he thinks that he is like one of the Pukel-men brought to life. Tolkien later wrote that the Pukel-men, or Druedain, ancestors of the Woses,

' occupied the White Mountains (on both sides) in the First Age. When the occupation of the coastlands by the Numenoreans began in the Second Age they survived in the mountains of the promontory [of Andrast], which was never occupied by the Numenoreans. Another remnant [Ghan-buri-Ghan's people] survived at the eastern end of the range [in Anorien]. At the end of the Third Age the latter, much reduced in numbers, were believed to be the only survivors, hence the other region was called "the Old Pukel-wilderness' (Druwaith Iaur). [The Druedain in Unfinished Tales] '



Later in H&S comment on "The Ride of the Rohirrim" chapter:



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In Beleriand during the First Age the Druedain 'showed great talent for carving in wood or stone...they delighted in carving figures of men and beasts, whether toys and ornaments or large images, to which the most skilled among them could give vivid semblance of life....They made also images of themselves and placed them at the entrances to tracks or at turning of woodland paths. These they called "watch-stones" ' (Unfinished Tales)



And further in their commentary:



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In a late scrap of writing Tolkien says that

' in Rohan the identity of the statues of Dunharrow called "Pukel-men" with the "Wild Men" of the Druadan Forest was not recognized, neither was their "humanity": hence the reference by Ghan-buri-Ghan to persecution of the "Wild Men" by the Rohirrim in the past....Since Ghan-buri-Ghan was attempting to use the Common Speech he called his people "Wild Men" (not without irony); but this was not of course their own name for themselves. (Unfinished Tales)




a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

Call Her Emily


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 22 2008, 8:59pm

Post #7 of 8 (652 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always wondered about the Pukel men. Who were they? Were they "the giants from the sea that 'made' Helm's Deep?

Probably Druedain returning to Middle-earth from Valinor, though they might have been “petty dwarves”.


I know that the Hold made a good defense position, but why did Rohirrim make it into a fortress if they were so afraid of the Dwimorberg and what lay beyond? Doesn't make much sense to me that they would do that.

Like Ufthak said, the fort is probably there to guard against the unknown horrors of the Dwimorberg just as much as against threats from anywhere else.


Why is Merry able to see Eowyn's emotional state when no one else can?

He's not as blind drunk on testosterone as everyone else is.


Has Eomer and Theoden been around Eowyn so much that it just seems to them to be her normal countenance?

That’s what Gandalf says later.


Did he not know that Aragorn was Isildur's heir and able to command the Army of Dead?

Blood is no guarantee. Baldor was Brego’s heir and look what happened to him. Same with Denethor’s heir Boromir and Theoden’s heir Theodred. Looking at it that way, the mission of Bilbo’s heir Frodo is also not a sure thing.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 22 2008, 9:57pm

Post #8 of 8 (696 views)
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But... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Did he not know that Aragorn was Isildur's heir and able to command the Army of Dead?

Blood is no guarantee. Baldor was Brego’s heir and look what happened to him. Same with Denethor’s heir Boromir and Theoden’s heir Theodred. Looking at it that way, the mission of Bilbo’s heir Frodo is also not a sure thing.


There were no major commitments made to heirs of Brego, Denethor, Théoden, or Bilbo. There *was* a specific and relevant relationship between the Dead and heirs of Isildur. Of course, there's no reason to believe the Rohirrim knew anything about that, since it was long before their time.





Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

 
 

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