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squire
Half-elven
Sep 15 2008, 10:42pm
Post #1 of 6
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**The Passing of the Grey Company** - ‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’
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Sorry for the lateness of these final posts! I appreciate especially Child of Manwe’s indulgence for my treading on his week.
When Aragorn's weary company finally reaches the Stone of Erech, it is the “dead of night”. Elrohir hands Aragorn a silver horn, and when he blows upon it an apparent echo sounds like many other horns. All present are aware of a large army of ghosts surrounding them in the darkness. Again, we have to go to the audio tape for the next moment:
Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice:
‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’
And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away:
‘To fulfil our oath and have peace.’
A. How can anyone see at this point? Shouldn’t Tolkien make clearer whether there is starlight or moonlight or something?
Here is that prophecy again:
at the Stone of Erech // they shall stand again
and hear there a horn // in the hills ringing.
Remember Halbarad did the horn duty at Helm’s Deep when the company set out.
B. Why now a second horn, and a second horn bearer?
C. Who speaks for the Dead?
Aragorn tells them their hour has come: he orders them to follow him to Pelargir, and help clear “this land” of “the servants of Sauron.” When that is done, Aragorn promises to “hold the oath fulfilled” so that they can “have peace and depart for ever.” He reveals that he is the heir of Isildur, by unfurling the standard – which appears to be pure black. The ghosts fall silent for the rest of the night, but the mortal Men of the company get little sleep for fear of the surrounding Shadows.
D. Obviously, the sanctity of oaths to the medieval mind is at the core of this entire story device. Are there any real life legends that this episode might draw from? Do oaths really hold ghosts captive for three thousand years?
E. Why does Aragorn not say he is Isildur’s heir until after he has summoned the dead from their cavern and given them their marching orders?
F. Is the fear that these Dead inspire in the living a generalized fear of death – or a more specific fear relating to guilt? Is it the same fear that the Nazgul arouse in their victims?
The next morning they set out on a great journey across the length of southern Gondor. Remember they are just south of Edoras. To get to Pelargir, which is many miles SSE of Minas Tirith, they have to go as far or farther by their southern route than Gandalf and Pippin have gone, and Theoden and Eomer are about to go, by the northern route. Thus the emphasis is on the incredible hardihood of Aragorn and his Rangers, and of Legolas and Gimli – “No other mortal Men could have endured it.” They progress through strange districts and places that only the Map can locate for us. We get a sense of impending doom with the blood-red sunset and the dawnless day. Towns are deserted by their fighting men gone to the war and by the other folk who fled the approach of the King of the Dead. The final line of the chapter is:
The Grey Company passed on into the darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were lost to mortal sight; but the Dead followed them.
G. Some have speculated that Aragorn’s passage underground, through Death and back to life, is the real moment when he assumes his inheritance as King of Gondor. What do you think?
Thus ends Chapter 2. As we know (*SPOILER AHEAD*) Aragorn is not mentioned again in the narrative until Chapter 6, when he suddenly appears at the head of a black fleet coming up the river from Pelargir. It is the second Save-The-Day miracle moment of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
And we do not even hear how he did it, until Chapter 9, when Legolas and Gimli tell the hobbits the missing story between Aragorn’s passing into the Storm of Mordor and his reappearance at the Harlond.
H. How well does this chapter work as part of the LotR narrative?
I. As a standalone story – what would be needed to make it a good short ghost story?
J. Does the Eowyn episode in the middle have anything to do with the Paths of the Dead per se?
K. Anything you want to talk about that I missed?
Thanks, everyone, for your patience – I barely had time to put this together, as I’m sure you realized. I love the ghost story aspect, and plenty of Aragorn but never enough of him, and the fear, and the mini-drama of Eowyn smack in the middle of it.
And now I have fulfilled my oath, and can have peace…
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 16 2008, 12:41am
Post #2 of 6
(943 views)
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It is the fear of the damned.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 16 2008, 9:32am
Post #3 of 6
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A. How can anyone see at this point? Shouldn’t Tolkien make clearer whether there is starlight or moonlight or something?
No one can see anything. It's not even clear they can hear anything: "it seemed ... that they heard a sound..." (my italics). And yet they are "aware of a great host", and seem to feel the breath of ghosts on their necks. This is all right on the ambiguous line between imagination and reality. No one ever really sees the Dead.
B. Why now a second horn, and a second horn bearer?
This seems to be a special ritual, to be performed by Isildur's heir himself. I wonder if the "silver horn" is related to the "silver trumpets" as a symbol of Gondor?
C. Who speaks for the Dead?
I suppose it's the King of the Mountains, the leader of the Men of the Mountains who became the oath-breakers, or as the locals call him, the King of the Dead.
D. Obviously, the sanctity of oaths to the medieval mind is at the core of this entire story device. Are there any real life legends that this episode might draw from? Do oaths really hold ghosts captive for three thousand years?
I suppose most real-world legends of this type say that the oath still holds, and that the spirit has not departed. Ghosts seem to walk forever, waiting for some specific moment that never actually comes. Only Aragorn takes such a legend and makes it come true.
E. Why does Aragorn not say he is Isildur’s heir until after he has summoned the dead from their cavern and given them their marching orders?
Because he has to prove his strength first, to back up his claim?
F. Is the fear that these Dead inspire in the living a generalized fear of death – or a more specific fear relating to guilt? Is it the same fear that the Nazgul arouse in their victims?
I don't see that guilt would have any particular relevance here (except the guilt of the ghosts themselves, of course). Since the Nazgul are also living dead, you'd think the fear would be similar. These ghosts, though, are full of fear and loathing of themselves, trapped and angry in a way that the Nazgul are not. Maybe that makes a difference to the quality of the fear they inspire.
G. Some have speculated that Aragorn’s passage underground, through Death and back to life, is the real moment when he assumes his inheritance as King of Gondor. What do you think?
If there has to be one "real moment", this one has all the hallmarks of being such a moment. When the rest of this episode is told in flashback, Legolas says, "In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself." Here is the moment when Aragorn reaches the heights of Gandalf and Galadriel, strong enough to wield the Ring but wise enough not to. Whether it's "the" moment or not (I kind of like the idea that it's the healing that really makes him a King), it's certainly a very important moment on Aragorn's journey to the throne.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to lead the discussion, squire! Even when you are rushed, your ideas are always stimulating.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 20 2008, 2:20am
Post #4 of 6
(952 views)
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Would that we could all "cobble together" a series as well as you've done here!
Halbarad giving a blast on a horn as they leave Helm's Deep brings to mind Boromir's horn at Rivendell. That was a "farewell, we're off" gesture. The silver horn at Erech is an entirely different matter: no doubt this particular horn had been saved through the years by Elrond, and most likely was one Isildur had used, and which these Dead had heard before. This is the horn mentioned in the rhyme.
That's an interesting question about the fear of these Dead compared to the fear of the Nazgűl. Both groups are cursed - by oath, or by Rings - and both are "undead" creatures. But the Nazgűl have the added power of Sauron behind them, that "Black Breath", whereas the hill-folk can only frighten.
I think I would have liked to have seen what Tolkien's take would have been, had the King of the Dead been able to encounter the Witch-King!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 12 2008, 3:54pm
Post #5 of 6
(897 views)
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A. How can anyone see at this point? Shouldn’t Tolkien make clearer whether there is starlight or moonlight or something?
Well, they can see a black banner but not the device on it, which implies starlight but not moonlight. But starlight can be pretty bright in Middle-earth, and can even cast shadows.
B. Why now a second horn, and a second horn bearer?
I don't know. Is it really a different horn?
C. Who speaks for the Dead?
I don't know.
D. Obviously, the sanctity of oaths to the medieval mind is at the core of this entire story device. Are there any real life legends that this episode might draw from? Do oaths really hold ghosts captive for three thousand years?
Many ghost stories involve some kind of reason for the ghost to hang around, for eternity if necessary. Hamlet's father, for example, wanted his murder avenged. I can't think of any other stories off hand regarding a broken oath, but it makes sense. On the other hand, oaths seem far more terrible in Middle-earth than in the Primary World.
E. Why does Aragorn not say he is Isildur’s heir until after he has summoned the dead from their cavern and given them their marching orders?
I don't know.
F. Is the fear that these Dead inspire in the living a generalized fear of death – or a more specific fear relating to guilt?
It's not death that they fear, but what comes after death. "To sleep, perchance to dream, aye, there's the rub..." Maybe guilt does have something to do with it -- that seems to be one of the reasons Scrooge feared Marley's ghost. But even the innocent fear these ghosts, as Gimli does. They're just not natural.
Is it the same fear that the Nazgul arouse in their victims?
Similar, but the Nazgul are worse, for they can turn their victims into wraiths. There's no evidence the Shadowhost has that power.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 5:02am
Post #6 of 6
(858 views)
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“I really must insist on your oiling those chains”.
[In reply to]
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Are there any real life legends that this episode might draw from?
In the film version of The Canterville Ghost (1943), cowardly Charles Laughton is walled into an anteroom (as in Poe’s “Cask of Amontillado”) by his father, doomed never to rest until he performs an act of bravery – a rather grim opening for what is mostly a comic film; anyway, he gets his chance during the Blitz. Scanning the original short story by Oscar Wilde, from which my subject line is taken, the plot seems rather different:
The old woman smiled, and answered in the same low, mysterious voice, “It is the blood of Lady Eleanore de Canterville, who was murdered on that very spot by her own husband, Sir Simon de Canterville, in 1575. Sir Simon survived her nine years, and disappeared suddenly under very mysterious circumstances. His body has never been discovered, but his guilty spirit still haunts the Chase. The blood-stain has been much admired by tourists and others, and cannot be removed.”
I wonder where the film’s idea comes from? And did Tolkien see it?
Thanks, squire!
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