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squire
Half-elven
Sep 13 2008, 2:03pm
Post #1 of 7
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**The Passing of the Grey Company** - And she answered as one that likes not what is said
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Aragorn and his Rangers take the direct route to Edoras and reach it by the next day afternoon. They ride directly from there, up the valley of the Snowbourn, and come to Dunharrow by nightfall. There they meet Eowyn, who leads the people of Edoras and the surrounding districts as they hole up in this stronghold, by order of Theoden before he rode off to Helm’s Deep.
Eowyn is glad to see them, but especially glad to see Aragorn. She listens to their tales of the battle of Helm’s Deep with shining eyes.
A. Since Gandalf said for everyone to ride by night and under cover, why did Aragorn go straight across the plain by daylight?
Eowyn thanks them for the news, and promises them better accommodations in the morning. Aragorn disillusions her, saying he has not come to give her news, but to accomplish an “errand most urgent”. Eowyn cautiously offers that Aragorn was generous to take a detour up to Dunharrow, since no road leads from it except back to Edoras. Aragorn corrects her, saying that he learned this land “ere you were born to grace it.” He reveals that tomorrow he intends to ride the Paths of the Dead. (da-Dum!)
B. Does Aragorn get Eowyn’s attraction yet? If so, why does he say things like “ere you were born to grace [the land]?” and “no man would count such a journey wasted” (i.e., a journey to reassure Eowyn)? But if not, why not?
C. Is Eowyn a grown-up – a princess of the royal house and experienced in the ways of war? If so, why does she pretend to herself or to her guests that Aragorn and his company must have come all the way to Dunharrow “to speak with her in her exile”?
Eowyn looks about to faint (“as one that is stricken”), and protests to Aragorn that he is seeking death: “They do not suffer the living to pass”. Aragorn disagrees, rather shortly. Eowyn calls his decision “madness”, and urges him to take his men to the war, where they will perform valuable service. She asks him to wait for Eomer (“my brother”), and ride with him to boosts the hopes and hearts of Rohan. Aragorn contradicts her again, saying his path is “appointed”, and repeats what he has said before: that all who follow him are not under command, but volunteers. He again publically invites anyone in his company to stay and ride with the Rohirrim if they wish. But he repeats his determination to take “alone, if needs be”, the Paths of the Dead. (da-Dum!)
D. It’s easy to forget that this exchange is not private, but spoken in front of a large number of people. How does that affect what Aragorn and Eowyn say?
E. Why does Aragorn not explain to Eowyn (and the Rohirrim in general, eh?) about the prophecy, to reassure them that he has reason to believe he has the right to take the Paths of the Dead and still live?
F. In pointing out the madness and waste of talent that his suicide mission represents, is Eowyn speaking for the Rohirrim in general? Or is all this just about her?
G. How many scenes in war movies have the commander telling his men it’s a dangerous volunteer mission, so anyone who doesn’t want to do it can leave now without shame – and not a man does? Is that what Aragorn is doing here? If so, isn’t it a bit of a cliché?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 13 2008, 5:38pm
Post #2 of 7
(768 views)
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A. Since Gandalf said for everyone to ride by night and under cover, why did Aragorn go straight across the plain by daylight?
He's already blown his cover, and he's in a frightful hurry. Also, he's come a long way from the unwilling leader who initially fell apart when there was no Gandalf handy to tell him what to do. He's learned to rely on his own counsel. And I still think that Gandalf was daft to recommend that people hide from Creatures of the Night in, uh, night.
B. Does Aragorn get Eowyn’s attraction yet? If so, why does he say things like “ere you were born to grace [the land]?” and “no man would count such a journey wasted” (i.e., a journey to reassure Eowyn)? But if not, why not?
By what he says later, about few things being more painful than seeing the affection of a great lady and not being able to return it, he does get it. Yet he also tries to be gallant, tries not to crush a hint of thawing in someone too long frozen, etc. In effect, he tries to behave like a movie star dealing with a fan crush. He hopes that she's just practicing on him; his later words also imply that Eowyn isn't actually in love with him, but rather with his reputation and image, all of the things that he symbolizes for her--typical fan stuff. Unfortunately, he did not reckon in how many of her other issues intertangled with her crush, leaving her to suicidal depression upon his departure.
C. Is Eowyn a grown-up – a princess of the royal house and experienced in the ways of war? If so, why does she pretend to herself or to her guests that Aragorn and his company must have come all the way to Dunharrow “to speak with her in her exile”?
Oh, I've seen women a lot older than Eowyn delude themselves worse than this when it comes to romance! She at least has the justification of knowing no other reason for him to be there.
D. It’s easy to forget that this exchange is not private, but spoken in front of a large number of people. How does that affect what Aragorn and Eowyn say?
E. Why does Aragorn not explain to Eowyn (and the Rohirrim in general, eh?) about the prophecy, to reassure them that he has reason to believe he has the right to take the Paths of the Dead and still live?
E answers D. Aragorn cannot hide where he is about to go; the best he can hope for is that spies won't understand why he's going that way or what hope he has of making it through. And after Grima, anyone who doesn't suspect that more spies riddle the Riddermark would have to be a fool.
F. In pointing out the madness and waste of talent that his suicide mission represents, is Eowyn speaking for the Rohirrim in general? Or is all this just about her?
First and foremost she does speak of her concerns for Rohan--and even broader than that, concerns for the entire battle against Evil. But yes, part of it is also about her. Remember, this is a maiden who loves songs of battle more than songs of love. (Which goes a long way to explain her coltish naivete about matters of the heart--she cannot help but be a bit immature about such unexplored territory.)
G. How many scenes in war movies have the commander telling his men it’s a dangerous volunteer mission, so anyone who doesn’t want to do it can leave now without shame – and not a man does? Is that what Aragorn is doing here? If so, isn’t it a bit of a cliché?
He already knows that everyone with him has gone through considerable trouble to volunteer already, and is not likely to back out. But he has to make the offer for form's sake. It's only fair, since he just upped the ante.
Far from sticking to cliches, Tolkien later has Aragorn make a similar offer on the way to the Black Gate, and a fair contingent of men actually take him up on it! They guard his back flank at a ford, grateful to find an honorable way out of a battle that's too much for them.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Sep 13 2008, 5:40pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 14 2008, 1:43pm
Post #3 of 7
(771 views)
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A. Since Gandalf said for everyone to ride by night and under cover, why did Aragorn go straight across the plain by daylight?
He's broken cover by using the palantir. Sauron now knows he's coming, so there's no point hiding.
B. Does Aragorn get Eowyn’s attraction yet? If so, why does he say things like “ere you were born to grace [the land]?” and “no man would count such a journey wasted” (i.e., a journey to reassure Eowyn)? But if not, why not?
I think he's trying to be courteous with these formal compliments, as a way of lessening the apparent insult of making it clear that he isn't actually interested in Eowyn in the way she thinks. The "ere you were born to grace it" is his way of telling her she's way too young and naive for him. I suppose if you're in love with a 3000-year-old Elf, most women would seem a little... immature in comparison!
C. Is Eowyn a grown-up – a princess of the royal house and experienced in the ways of war? If so, why does she pretend to herself or to her guests that Aragorn and his company must have come all the way to Dunharrow “to speak with her in her exile”?
Quite simply because Dunharrow doesn't lead anywhere. If Aragorn didn't come to visit Eowyn and her charges, what other reason could there be? The Paths of the Dead don't even enter her darkest dreams.
D. It’s easy to forget that this exchange is not private, but spoken in front of a large number of people. How does that affect what Aragorn and Eowyn say?
Well, there will be a private conversation later, when the subject turns a little more personal. But still neither fully speaks their mind. I think that Aragorn's comment reiterating that those who follow him are not obligated to do so is a response to Eowyn's public criticism of his actions, accusing him of taking men of "renown and prowess" out of the war. Aragorn makes it clear that he isn't "taking" them - they have made the choice for themselves.
E. Why does Aragorn not explain to Eowyn (and the Rohirrim in general, eh?) about the prophecy, to reassure them that he has reason to believe he has the right to take the Paths of the Dead and still live?
He does say, ""They may suffer me to pass," and "I go on a path appointed." He doesn't go into details about his kingship, but then he hasn't proved his right to the kingship yet, so really it wouldn't add much weight to his argument anyway.
F. In pointing out the madness and waste of talent that his suicide mission represents, is Eowyn speaking for the Rohirrim in general? Or is all this just about her?
Yes. (Sorry Darkstone.)
G. How many scenes in war movies have the commander telling his men it’s a dangerous volunteer mission, so anyone who doesn’t want to do it can leave now without shame – and not a man does? Is that what Aragorn is doing here? If so, isn’t it a bit of a cliché?
Yes, it's a cliché. LotR is full of clichés - reusing old themes and ideas in new combinations is what heroic romance is all about, isn't it? Choosing to go on when offered the chance of turning back is what makes a hero, according to Sam: "But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been forgotten." This idea of freely choosing to do your duty is an important one, which of course is why it's become a cliché in the first place.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 16 2008, 2:48am
Post #4 of 7
(740 views)
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well...I'm not exactly here to see you!
[In reply to]
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A. Since Gandalf said for everyone to ride by night and under cover, why did Aragorn go straight across the plain by daylight?
Speed over stealth.
B. Does Aragorn get Eowyn’s attraction yet?
Yes.
If so, why does he say things like “ere you were born to grace [the land]?” and “no man would count such a journey wasted” (i.e., a journey to reassure Eowyn)? But if not, why not?
He gets it, but does not fully get her.
C. Is Eowyn a grown-up – a princess of the royal house and experienced in the ways of war?
Yes
If so, why does she pretend to herself or to her guests that Aragorn and his company must have come all the way to Dunharrow “to speak with her in her exile”?
Well...she gets derailed from that train of thought pretty hastily, huh?
D. It’s easy to forget that this exchange is not private, but spoken in front of a large number of people. How does that affect what Aragorn and Eowyn say?
They are formal here using "lord" and "lady" in contrast to her later use of "Aragorn".
E. Why does Aragorn not explain to Eowyn (and the Rohirrim in general, eh?) about the prophecy, to reassure them that he has reason to believe he has the right to take the Paths of the Dead and still live? He did say he was going "on a path appointed". Enough said.
F. In pointing out the madness and waste of talent that his suicide mission represents, is Eowyn speaking for the Rohirrim in general? Or is all this just about her?
Maybe a little of both since she certainly is concerned for her people, but keeping Aragorn nearby would be a side benefit--for her.
G. How many scenes in war movies have the commander telling his men it’s a dangerous volunteer mission, so anyone who doesn’t want to do it can leave now without shame – and not a man does? Is that what Aragorn is doing here? If so, isn’t it a bit of a cliché?
Is it "cliche" when it is heartfelt? I use the old "live and learn" quite a bit--meaning live and (while you're at it) learn-two separate actions.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 18 2008, 12:01am
Post #5 of 7
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He could have said a bit more.
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E. Why does Aragorn not explain to Eowyn (and the Rohirrim in general, eh?) about the prophecy, to reassure them that he has reason to believe he has the right to take the Paths of the Dead and still live?
He does say, ""They may suffer me to pass," and "I go on a path appointed." He doesn't go into details about his kingship, but then he hasn't proved his right to the kingship yet, so really it wouldn't add much weight to his argument anyway.
That's pretty minimal, particularly in view of the level of concern that everyone is expressing. A few more words about *why* he might pass and the urgency of his errand would have spared not only Eowyn but also the Rohirrim and Merry a lot of anguish and pain. How hard would it have been to say,
"Because of my heritage, I believe I may have the right to use this pass. And I have learned that there is a dire threat to Gondor from the south, so it is of paramount urgency that I get through the mountain with my company, small as it is, to counter it. It's the only way open to me, and I am the only person who might be able to do this. Therefore I will try, despite the danger."
Of course, that would have diminished our tension as well as Eowyn's, which is probably why he didn't say it. And Eowyn would still have wanted to come, and he still wouldn't have let her.
Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Sep 18 2008, 12:03am)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 18 2008, 7:17am
Post #6 of 7
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I get a sense that talking too much about what he's going to attempt might be "tempting Fate" on Aragorn's part. This is not really a logical, strategic plan - it's a leap of faith, and analysing it might strip it of its mystical power. (Maybe talking about Arwen too openly might come under a similar taboo.) The more carefully I read Aragorn's character, the more I find myself thinking that he is concealing a lot of worry and doubt under that stoic exterior. If he doesn't come right out and say he thinks he can make it through the Paths, that may be because he really doesn't know if he will be able to rise to the heights required. Which makes him all the more courageous, in a way, in that he overcomes these human doubts and fears through sheer strength of will, and by mastering his own fears helps his companions to master theirs.
Plus, as you say, it makes for higher tension in the story - and perhaps it makes it easier to understand and forgive Eowyn's apparent recklessness, when she is working so much in the dark.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 11 2008, 11:53pm
Post #7 of 7
(747 views)
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A. Since Gandalf said for everyone to ride by night and under cover, why did Aragorn go straight across the plain by daylight?
I don't think Gandalf was advising Theoden regarding movement of troops, and the muster of Rohan. Messengers and small bands in need of haste might be exempt. Gandalf himself rode in haste on Shadowfax with no apparent attempt to hide his movement. Gandalf did not anticipate Aragorn's need for haste, and Aragorn has already shown that he will ignore Gandalf's advise if he thinks it is necessary.
B. Does Aragorn get Eowyn’s attraction yet?
Yes.
If so, why does he say things like “ere you were born to grace [the land]?” and “no man would count such a journey wasted” (i.e., a journey to reassure Eowyn)?
He's trying to be polite.
But if not, why not?
I don't understand this question.
C. Is Eowyn a grown-up – a princess of the royal house and experienced in the ways of war?
Yes.
If so, why does she pretend to herself or to her guests that Aragorn and his company must have come all the way to Dunharrow “to speak with her in her exile”?
Because she can't think of any other reason for them to come out of their way, but there is a question behind her statement. "Wow, nice of you to come visit" may mean "Why in the heck are you here?"
D. It’s easy to forget that this exchange is not private, but spoken in front of a large number of people. How does that affect what Aragorn and Eowyn say?
I always got the impression that the large number of people politely pretended to check their gear or something. Aragorn, for his part, may want the people there to keep things from getting intimate, while Eowyn in her desperation is willing to say things in front of everyone.
E. Why does Aragorn not explain to Eowyn (and the Rohirrim in general, eh?) about the prophecy, to reassure them that he has reason to believe he has the right to take the Paths of the Dead and still live?
That would spoil the surprise! No, really, Aragorn is counting on surprise, and doesn't want anyone to know the full story.
F. In pointing out the madness and waste of talent that his suicide mission represents, is Eowyn speaking for the Rohirrim in general? Or is all this just about her?
The Rohirrim who fought with Aragorn may care for him, but they are back with Theoden.
G. How many scenes in war movies have the commander telling his men it’s a dangerous volunteer mission, so anyone who doesn’t want to do it can leave now without shame – and not a man does? Is that what Aragorn is doing here? If so, isn’t it a bit of a cliché?
Well, Aragorn makes the same offer on the way to the Black Gates, and thousands of men take him up on it. Just not these men.
Also, I guess I'm not as familiar with war movies as you are.
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