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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 6:06am
Post #102 of 141
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"1. It's just not reasonable to me that Gandalf would go running back into an enemy stronghold he barely escaped to retrieve his staff"
The only threat to Gandalf in that entire tower was Saruman, who obviously was on top of it, and not inside it. Besides, it wouldn't take more than 3 seconds to grab a staff.
"2. The staff changes only after Gandalf escapes Isengard. If they were simply two different staves used in production, why doesn't the staff change throughout the movie?"
My theory is that they did that to make us speculate such as we are now. I'm sure if they intended on it actually being a brand new staff in the Story, they would have made it far more noticeable. Besides, that would seem like a far more likely coincidence than Saruman not using Gandalf's staff throughout the entire rest of the Trilogy, not to mention the fact that we never see it again.
"3. While the differences are indeed subtle, I don't believe they are too subtle for the crew to pay attention to. Why create two different staves when they went to such trouble to make sure that everything else was exactly the same, unless you mean for them to actually be two different staves in the movie?"
See above.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 6:10am
Post #103 of 141
(2227 views)
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"Gandalf could have told the eagle to break into Orthanc to get the staff back or done it by himself, with all the Orcs there *snort* Best way to get imprisoned again at once."
First off, when did it ever show Orcs inside Orthanc without Saruman in there to give them orders?
Secondly, I highly doubt Gandalf considers a few Orcs to be a serious threat, especially considering it would only take seconds to retrieve the staff. Gawhir could kill 10 Orcs by himself, let alone with Gandalf on him.
"Well, why didn't use Saruman Gandalf's staff to get his might back? That would make it necessary that the power of an Istar is in his staff, not in himself. I always saw the breaking of Saruman's staff only as a symbol for his disempowerment, nothing more. They might have used their staff to channel their power, but this power had to come from themselves.And if it was the staff only, then it would not make sense that Gandalf ever got a new one - would the Elves have been able to make one that holds the power of a Maia? I honestly doubt that."
That actually works more for my point than it does yours. The fact that the power is within the Wizards would make it even stranger if Saruman never used Gandalf's staff throughout the rest of the Trilogy, or at least keep it handy. Saruman would just use Gandalf's staff to channel his power through.
(This post was edited by Legolas123 on Sep 12 2008, 6:13am)
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Sep 12 2008, 6:11am
Post #104 of 141
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I am never sure of anything in the filmmaker's minds until I hear it from them, especially when it concerns the detail and care that they put into every piece they created.
I'm sure if they intended on it actually being a brand new staff in the Story, they would have made it far more noticeable.
My theory is that they did that to make us speculate such as we are now.
I believe you're right there. I've checked both the Art of books and Weapons and Warfare and I searched the commentary transcripts all to no avail. Unfortunately, my third disc of the FOTR EE is elsewhere at the moment or I'd run through the costume documentary again to see if it's addressed. My feeling, though, is that it wasn't.
My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
Screencap of the Day Schedule for September
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 6:12am
Post #105 of 141
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"Casual viewers will probably never even think about what happened to the staff, especially if the film makers don't draw too much attention to that point. So, the film makers give Gandalf another staff but make it look enough like the one he lost that if you don't look too closely you'll just not even wonder about such things.
On the other hand, they knew that many fans would watch the films over and over again and obsess about stuff like this. So they made the staff different enough that some of us could feel very happy that they did not neglect to consider this point, and that yes indeed the staff he has in Rivendell is different enough to be able to pass for a new staff, therefore we could not say "wait a minute, they showed Gandalf losing his staff in Isengard, how come he has it again here in Rivendell?""
You missed the part where I let it be known that I am FAR more than a casual viewer. I have seen the Movie a billion times, have 20/20 vision, pay attention to detail, and yet never noticed these very slight differences until they were pointed out with close ups.
And no, the differences aren't even close to being enough for it to be obvious that they were intending on him having a new staff in the Story itself.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 6:15am
Post #107 of 141
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"By that logic, Gandalf's staff would add nothing to his own power. He could use it, but it wouldn't increase his ability."
I already knew that though lol.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 12 2008, 6:36am
Post #108 of 141
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First off, when did it ever show Orcs inside Orthanc without Saruman in there to give them orders?
What do you want to say with that? Do you think the Orcs camped in front of the tower and didn't live in the depths below it? Seems unlikely to me. And Saruman would tell them to take Gandalf.
Secondly, I highly doubt Gandalf considers a few Orcs to be a serious threat, especially considering it would only take seconds to retrieve the staff. Gawhir could kill 10 Orcs by himself, let alone with Gandalf on him.
Well, if that was so easy, why did he lose the staff in the first place? And why didn't he simply wave his staff and blow away all the Orcs in Moria?
Anyway, Gwaihir is too big to get into Orthanc.
That actually works more for my point than it does yours. The fact that the power is within the Wizards would make it even stranger if Saruman never used Gandalf's staff throughout the rest of the Trilogy, or at least keep it handy. Saruman would just use Gandalf's staff to channel his power through.
No. As I said before, I see the staff as nothing much more than a symbol. First Saruman had no need to use Gandalf's staff, because he had his own, and after Gandalf returned to Isengard after Helm's Deep, he not only broke Saruman's staff, but *stripped him of his power* as well. He's nothing more than a normal man now, so Gandalf's staff is of no use to him.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Sep 12 2008, 6:45am
Post #110 of 141
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Maybe he should check out your costume discussions too
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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There are heaps of details in them that most of us have missed, despite watching the movies umpteen times 
Valinor, O Valinor
Andavë yányë hyarya
Tumna yá nyèna minya fëa
An Valinor, lissë Eldamar
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
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ElanorTX
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2008, 6:58am
Post #111 of 141
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how would you like it to read?
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I'm a Wikipedia editor and would be glad to take a stab, crack, swing, whatever, at fixing the entry
ElanorTX
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 7:15am
Post #112 of 141
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"What do you want to say with that? Do you think the Orcs camped in front of the tower and didn't live in the depths below it? Seems unlikely to me. And Saruman would tell them to take Gandalf."
How many times did it show the inside of Orthanc, and how many times were there Orcs in it, once? Twice if you include Lurtz. Both times it showed them in there, they were receiving orders from Saruman. It never shows any Orcs in there just camping around.
Orcs living in the depths below the Tower actually seems far more likely given that they are Orcs. I doubt Saruman lets filthy Orcs just stay inside his Tower that was specially given to him by Gondor and Rohan, and is actually pretty nice inside.
He can tell them to take Gandalf while he's standing up there, but by the time they get in there Gandalf would have already been out with his staff and on Gwahir flying away.
"Well, if that was so easy, why did he lose the staff in the first place? And why didn't he simply wave his staff and blow away all the Orcs in Moria?
Anyway, Gwaihir is too big to get into Orthanc."
I didn't mean for Gwahir to actually go inside the Tower with him. He could drop him off at the highest step, Gandalf could walk in, grab it in seconds, and be back out and on top of Gwahir to fly away.
Gandalf wouldn't need to use magic to defeat the small size of Orcs he would encounter inside the Tower (assuming that there would be any at all, which is unlikely in of itself). It shows him defeating several Orcs with the physical use of his staff and sword at Gondor.
"No. As I said before, I see the staff as nothing much more than a symbol. First Saruman had no need to use Gandalf's staff, because he had his own, and after Gandalf returned to Isengard after Helm's Deep, he not only broke Saruman's staff, but *stripped him of his power* as well. He's nothing more than a normal man now, so Gandalf's staff is of no use to him."
If Saruman had zero need for Gandalf's staff, what was the point of using it against him right after he took it from him? Also, stripping Saruman of his powers could have meant that he couldn't use them anymore because he no longer had a staff. Just because staffs are a symbol, doesn't mean that they don't need one to use their powers, otherwise there would be no use for them in the first place. The power is within themselves, but as was pointed out earlier in this Thread, they need the staffs to have something to channel their power through.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 7:22am
Post #113 of 141
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"...does not mean that other movie goers didn't notice it. It also doesn't mean that it was not meant to be noticed. Are you familiar with Gramma's Geeky Observation Lists (HERE)? Everyone notices different things, but just because only a few people notice something, does not mean that it isn't significant."
I never said that no one else noticed it. I just said that unless you saw it in a close up, and/or had better than 20/20 vision, 99.9% chances are you didn't notice it.
Of all the Lord Of The Rings fans I have encountered (tens of thousands), only 2 people (both from this Board, obviously) ever pointed it out.
That's not to say that only two people noticed it, but it's very few and far between for the most part.
My point is the differences are not noticeable at all from a somewhat below average to long (in terms of how far away you are from the screen/picture) look. I'm sure if they had intentions more than just to make us speculate, and actually intended on this being a new staff for the Story itself, they would have made the changes a lot more noticeable, to the point where it would be obvious on first glance.
So that's my theory/opinion. I'm not saying it's right, but I refuse to say it's wrong, unless Peter Jackson himself tells me himself that it was meant to be a new staff for the Story. You, and others are more than welcome to yalls theories/opinions.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 12 2008, 7:38am
Post #114 of 141
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Considering that the Orcs were working at destroying Fangorn, they didn't stay in their holes, but were outside as well.
Your idea how Gandalf could get his staff back implies that 1) the door to Orthanc is open for everyone to enter and 2) that Saruman conveniently leaned the staff at the wall just inside the door. Very unlikely.
Yes. Gandalf needed his staff *and* his sword to defeat a few Orcs at Minas Tirith - at a time he was already the (more powerful) White, not the Grey. So he didn't need the staff to defeat more Orcs at Orthanc? Sorry, that doesn't sound logical to me.
Saruman using Gandalf's staff against him was a movie invention, wasn't it? I'm not sure it was necessary, not only a nice picture.
Anyway, if the staff is really necessary, then Saruman could make a new one, so I really don't see the point in him having to rely on Gandalf's. And if the creation of a new one makes the power of an Istar necessary, and he couldn't make a new one, then the staff is useless anyway after he was stripped of his power.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 8:15am
Post #115 of 141
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"Considering that the Orcs were working at destroying Fangorn, they didn't stay in their holes, but were outside as well."
Obviously Fangorn isn't far from the Tower, but by the time they got to the front of the Tower after waiting for Saruman's command, Gandalf would already be out the front door and getting back on top of Gwahir.
"Yes. Gandalf needed his staff *and* his sword to defeat a few Orcs at Minas Tirith - at a time he was already the (more powerful) White, not the Grey. So he didn't need the staff to defeat more Orcs at Orthanc? Sorry, that doesn't sound logical to me."
He was only more powerful in the sense of magic. He defeated the Orcs with his staff in a physical manner, not with magic.
More Orcs? It would have been no more than the same amount by the time Gandalf was out of the Tower, assuming there would be any there at all. Were there more Orcs overall in Fangorn than there were that fought Gandalf in that scene? Of course, but not every Orc is going to be able to attack at once. The Orcs were in seperated groups, one tearing down a tree, another group tearing down another. It's not like they were all in a line waiting to rally and charge in battle. There would be not near enough time for enough Orcs to get to the Tower to overwhelm Gandalf by the time he gets out.
"Saruman using Gandalf's staff against him was a movie invention, wasn't it? I'm not sure it was necessary, not only a nice picture."
If it wasn't necessary, then why did he do it? That was clear enough for it to be obvious that it was intended.
"Anyway, if the staff is really necessary, then Saruman could make a new one, so I really don't see the point in him having to rely on Gandalf's."
And who's going to make it, the Elves? Somehow I doubt that. If Saruman could have stocked up on a bunch of staffs, he obviously would have.
"And if the creation of a new one makes the power of an Istar necessary, and he couldn't make a new one, then the staff is useless anyway after he was stripped of his power."
A staff is necessary only in the need of something to channel their power through.
If he could use his power without needing something to channel his power through (like a staff), then I highly doubt Gandalf would just lay down helplessly after the Witch King broke his staff.
(This post was edited by Legolas123 on Sep 12 2008, 8:18am)
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 12 2008, 8:53am
Post #116 of 141
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there have to be Orcs dragging the felled trees back, too. But I don't really care about this part. You missed my point - the question still is why the door should be open for Gandalf to sneak in and why the staff should lie ready to be taken back. If Saruman was *that* stupid, he deserves to be thrown out of the order anyway.
And frankly, I've never believed the Istari were allowed to use much magic. To do a bit of firework, yes, but defeating Orcs by magic is just what they are *not* sent to do - they were sent to teach others to work together against the shadow. To use magic to get his staff back would go against the role of the Istari as I understand it, particularly as it would be of use to Gandalf only.
Not everything showed in a movie has to be a practical necessarity, IMO. Saruman pointing two staffs at Gandalf looked more impressing, but I never took it as enhancing his power. But that is a matter of opinion.
How the scene between Gandalf and the Witch-king would have ended we were never shown, so I doubt he would have been so helpless if they came to blows afterwards. They were interrupted before anything more happened. And btw, if you have ever fallen from a horse on hard ground, you'd know that one doesn't jump up again at the same second, but needs a moment to get his breath back, and that you feel rather stiff and sore and first moves a bit slower to check if something is broken. That was all I've read out of the scene.
And really, when they only need such a staff to get their power back, then it would have been absolutely stupid to have done nothing more than breaking Saruman's staff. He could have gone to steal the one of Gandalf or Radagast - and what then? No, I am sure that not only his staff was broken, but his power stripped from him as well in another way - maybe through the Valar themselves.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 12 2008, 3:18pm
Post #117 of 141
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Elanor, I hope you weren't offended by my comments. I did not mean to be disrespectful.
I think that rather than responding to you here, I will start a new thread in the Reading Room to express my thoughts, and open it up to others to comment. Looking at the discussion page for that entry, I see that the person who wrote/edited it appears to pretty strongly wedded to the idea of the Ainur being Valar, so I will need to respond to his or her comments as well as making suggestions for edits.
Look for the new thread some time fairly soon, once I can put enough attention to it.
Edit to add what I should have said first: thank you for your kind offer!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Sep 12 2008, 3:19pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 12 2008, 5:02pm
Post #121 of 141
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I hadn't noticed the carving, either
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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so I'm grateful for this discussion for that reason.
I'm on lunch and can't read every response here but I want to point out/remind people that there is a link to quite a few more images in my post with the inline images. I knew it was important to see the staves from many angles and light so I took as many screen shots as could.
magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 12 2008, 5:05pm
Post #122 of 141
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I had a look at the other pictures, too, and was once again amazed how much work you put into collecting pictures to just *one* detail! (Or four  ) Thank you!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 5:49pm
Post #124 of 141
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"there have to be Orcs dragging the felled trees back, too. But I don't really care about this part. You missed my point - the question still is why the door should be open for Gandalf to sneak in and why the staff should lie ready to be taken back. If Saruman was *that* stupid, he deserves to be thrown out of the order anyway."
Oh please, like Gandalf couldn't break the door down even if it were locked? And again, that's assuming it was locked. He didn't seem to have any problem leaving it unlocked before the Orcs just walked in.
Saruman was under no threat from anyone when he went to the top of the Tower.
"And frankly, I've never believed the Istari were allowed to use much magic. To do a bit of firework, yes, but defeating Orcs by magic is just what they are *not* sent to do - they were sent to teach others to work together against the shadow. To use magic to get his staff back would go against the role of the Istari as I understand it, particularly as it would be of use to Gandalf only."
You keep missing the part where I said he wouldn't need magic to defeat a few Orcs. He used his staff in a physical manner (no magic involved) when he fought the Orcs at Minas Tirith.
"Not everything showed in a movie has to be a practical necessarity, IMO. Saruman pointing two staffs at Gandalf looked more impressing, but I never took it as enhancing his power. But that is a matter of opinion."
Who did Saruman want to impress? Gandalf? Gandalf already knew how powerful he was.
"How the scene between Gandalf and the Witch-king would have ended we were never shown, so I doubt he would have been so helpless if they came to blows afterwards. They were interrupted before anything more happened. And btw, if you have ever fallen from a horse on hard ground, you'd know that one doesn't jump up again at the same second, but needs a moment to get his breath back, and that you feel rather stiff and sore and first moves a bit slower to check if something is broken. That was all I've read out of the scene."
I'm sure Gandalf was just laying there because he knew the Rohirrim would have gotten there just in time. I'm so sure (sarcasm ending now).
Before anything more happened? Yes, except more than a minute of just laying there.
Yeah, because Gandalf was just huffing and puffing trying to catch his breath after the fall, right? No, he was looking directly at the Witch King as if he didn't just fall off a horse. This is a fantasy Movie, not real life. Are you going to say that there are people as old as Gandalf in real life?
"And really, when they only need such a staff to get their power back, then it would have been absolutely stupid to have done nothing more than breaking Saruman's staff. He could have gone to steal the one of Gandalf or Radagast - and what then? No, I am sure that not only his staff was broken, but his power stripped from him as well in another way - maybe through the Valar themselves."
When did they ever do anything more than break Saruman's staff?
The fact that Saruman didn't keep Gandalf's old staff handy, suggests that he never had it in the first place (after Gandalf left the Tower the first time around).
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 5:52pm
Post #125 of 141
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"The easiest way to hold them is parallel to the ground. I'm not convinced Saruman actually turned Gandalf's staff against him, merely that he was holding it lest Gandalf miraculously retrieve it."
It was clearly emphasized in that scene that he was using both staffs against him.
"Maybe Gandalf was just amazed that the WitchKing managed to break his staff against all of Tolkien's rules"
Hahaha.
In all seriousness though, the fact that Gandalf put over the Witch King so much when talking to Pippin earlier on pretty much contradicts him being amazed by his power.
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