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orcbane
Gondor
Sep 11 2008, 1:15pm
Post #28 of 64
(665 views)
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You know, I am kind of the oblivious sort, and did not realize you were a Mod, until just recently. I thought 'Whats this ? A Mod I didn't know about ? And one that hasn't 'had a word' with me ?'
So please do not be offended, and realize that it takes time to come up with a silly name. It's on my list of 'Things to do that annoy Mods' list.
But it is a bit of a race. Between me coming up with a name and Draupne seeing the silly name I gave her. Because when she does I may be just history. I know you could give account of yourself, but she is terrifying. She yelled at me once. And it hurt my feelings!
But really just kidding.  I will do anything to try and get a laugh. Even set myself on fire if that is what it takes.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
Sep 11 2008, 1:32pm
Post #29 of 64
(651 views)
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*waits for someone with a match*
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Just kidding, orcbane.  You're funny enough without the flames!
And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.
SFTH Archive
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silneldor
Half-elven
Sep 11 2008, 1:33pm
Post #30 of 64
(694 views)
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yes, it is very annoying, those that think
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they know everything.
Especially to those that do .
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
After Sunset
I have an understanding with the hills
At evening, when slanted radiance fills
Their hollows, and the great winds let them be,
And they are quiet and look down at me.
Oh, then I see the patience in their eyes
Out of the centuries that made them wise.
They lend me hoarded memory, and I learn
Their thoughts of granite and their whims of fern,
And why a dream of forests must endure
Though every tree be slain; and how the pure,
Invisible beauty has a word so brief
A flower can say it, or a shaken leaf,
But few may ever snare it in a song,
Though for the quest a life is not too long.
When the blue hills grow tender, when they pull
The twilight close with gesture beautiful,
And shadows are their garments, and the air
Deepens, and the wild veery is at prayer,
Their arms are strong around me; and I know
That somehow I shall follow where you go
To the still land beyond the evening star,
Where everlasting hills and valleys are,
And silence may not hurt us any more,
And terror shall be past, and grief and war.
Grace Hazard Conkling (conclusion of a song recital from the book Lake Minnewaska by W Doughty where he says ''this is not the end of songs which we are certain will continue to rise from gifted minds and hearts in this enchanted realm where sometimes 'great mists lie' but always where 'great dreams rise' ''.) ...Reminds me particularly of the elves and the ents
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu
From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 3:16pm
Post #31 of 64
(662 views)
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Darkstone annoying at all 
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 11 2008, 3:29pm
Post #32 of 64
(638 views)
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...this Mod has some skill with a sword!
(Yes, in RL he's a fencer...en guard!)
But don't worry about Droopers. Her bark is worse than her bite. Sometimes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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orcbane
Gondor
Sep 11 2008, 3:51pm
Post #34 of 64
(637 views)
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Bonfire of the vanity...TORn sends for marshmellows!
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
Sep 11 2008, 3:52pm
Post #35 of 64
(624 views)
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I'm out of marshmallows...
And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.
SFTH Archive
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 4:09pm
Post #36 of 64
(624 views)
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Just push here.
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea
Sep 11 2008, 4:17pm
Post #38 of 64
(646 views)
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1. Give people the benefit of the doubt.
2. Remember the limitations of online communication.
3. Don't post under the influence of mind-altering substances. (This includes outrage. Wait until you've cooled down a bit.)
4. Be civil and polite, even if the person you're arguing with isn't. You'll retain the moral high ground.
5. Try not to take things personally.
6. When in doubt, just walk away.
When I've neglected to follow these guidelines is when I've gotten bogged down in pointless flame wars.
We're discussing the BBC Lord of the Rings Radio Play on the Movie Discussion - LOTR board.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea
Sep 11 2008, 4:20pm
Post #39 of 64
(631 views)
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The bullhorn and guns incident sounds pretty scary. I'm amazed that your relationship with your N-I-L survived it.
We're discussing the BBC Lord of the Rings Radio Play on the Movie Discussion - LOTR board.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
Sep 11 2008, 4:25pm
Post #40 of 64
(616 views)
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And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.
SFTH Archive
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silneldor
Half-elven
Sep 11 2008, 4:39pm
Post #41 of 64
(633 views)
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now if he would only get the lead out and show up.
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
After Sunset
I have an understanding with the hills
At evening, when slanted radiance fills
Their hollows, and the great winds let them be,
And they are quiet and look down at me.
Oh, then I see the patience in their eyes
Out of the centuries that made them wise.
They lend me hoarded memory, and I learn
Their thoughts of granite and their whims of fern,
And why a dream of forests must endure
Though every tree be slain; and how the pure,
Invisible beauty has a word so brief
A flower can say it, or a shaken leaf,
But few may ever snare it in a song,
Though for the quest a life is not too long.
When the blue hills grow tender, when they pull
The twilight close with gesture beautiful,
And shadows are their garments, and the air
Deepens, and the wild veery is at prayer,
Their arms are strong around me; and I know
That somehow I shall follow where you go
To the still land beyond the evening star,
Where everlasting hills and valleys are,
And silence may not hurt us any more,
And terror shall be past, and grief and war.
Grace Hazard Conkling (conclusion of a song recital from the book Lake Minnewaska by W Doughty where he says ''this is not the end of songs which we are certain will continue to rise from gifted minds and hearts in this enchanted realm where sometimes 'great mists lie' but always where 'great dreams rise' ''.) ...Reminds me particularly of the elves and the ents
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu
From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 5:20pm
Post #42 of 64
(625 views)
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It stretched it almost to the breaking point.
[In reply to]
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Our church was hosting a meeting of the Million Mom March, and the gun rights folks showed up and were pretty scary. We wrote a letter to Dudley and his wife (my husband's niece) that we had to edit a lot before we sent it. I love my husband's niece dearly; we first met when I was nineteen and she was four, and she's been an important part of my life ever since, so that was a big part of the reason why we tried so hard to keep things together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 6:10pm
Post #43 of 64
(622 views)
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Tolkien is what made our conversation possible.
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If people can find something in common and talk about it first, it may help each of them to see the other person as real instead of as a stereotyped bundle of prejudices.
But there also has to be willingness to see another person that way, which not everyone has.
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 6:15pm
Post #44 of 64
(645 views)
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We are all aware of how discussions on certain subjects tend to become over-heated and end up with hurt feelings.
What happens is that once both sides realize that their impeccable arguments and infallible logic haven’t changed the mind of the other then they start getting personal. The length of time before frustration kicks in is different for everyone. So it’s rather fascinating in a morbid sort of way to watch two people generating a very long thread to see at what point they give up discussing the topic at hand and start discussing each other.
Yet they are also some of the more important (RL affecting) issues and logically you would think they are therefore important to discuss.
Why? How often does anyone change their deep seated beliefs because of argument? And it’s even more rare to change one’s feelings because of logic. Most discussions involve one or two people restating what everyone in the group already believes, only with more eloquence and clarity, while everyone else harrumphs in self-satisfied agreement. More volatile discussions involve trolling those with different beliefs with hackle-raising clichéd codewords and catch phrases while waiting for the other to get hasty and make a misstatement. Then one can seize on the mistake and spend the rest of the thread beating it into the ground. The same thing happens here. One can post a long thoughtful post, only to come back later and find umpteen dozen replies debating one word of one line of one paragraph of the OP. If one wants to see that sort of idiotic process in futility one only has to check the news and read the current topic of discussion between the US presidential candidates.
Some, perhaps most, don't really come to this forum with that in mind, or have that urge satisfied elsewhere.
A lot of self proclaimed “Real Fans” just come onto the forums to rant against the films and vituperate “PJ-worshippers”. The discussions of Jackson’s films, and even of Tolkien’s books themselves, have generated as much hatred and vitriol as one might see on a political forum. And likewise in the end few opinions (if any) have been changed.
But some, myself included, do not have much opportunity to discuss it elsewhere.
Again, why do you wish to discuss it at all?
And perhaps being fans of the same subject, start at least with some similiar viewpoints.
That’s a big assumption. And I believe a fallacious one. And I can see people tending to become outraged precisely because they suddenly find out that someone whose viewpoints on Tolkien they admire has a totally different opinion about capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, gay marriage, or the environment. They’d feel betrayed.
I would like to see the discussions continue.
Why? I mean that as an honest question. What exactly do you want it to accomplish? What do you think that it will accomplish?
However, just in a few weeks, I have seen at least two casualties, and for all I know I may have contributed to the hurt feelings. Or perhaps its your fault! (points finger at you ).
Over the years many posters have left because of hurt feelings over heated discussions about the films. Now the survivors are in a sort of uneasy truce with occasional sniping between the two sides. Adding more cause for division may well split the forums up into ever smaller squabbling factions. A “Balkanization of the boards” as NEB once put it. The board is going to be in tumult enough with The Hobbit coming up. One can only imagine what would happen with religion and politics thrown into the mix.
it is about that I ask the next question.
How can we better talk about sensitive subjects without arrousing personnal conflicts ?
You can’t. Sensitive subjects are personal. It’s like discussing feelings:
“I feel sad.”
“Well, you shouldn’t feel sad.”
“But I do feel sad.”
“It’s not logical. You have no reason to feel sad.”
“But I still feel sad.”
“Maybe you don’t really feel sad. Maybe you only think you feel sad.”
“I think I know how I feel.”
“But you’re wrong for feeling sad.”
(Discussion goes downhill from there.)
The main problem I see is that these subjects have already been fought over so much, that the ground is strewn with barricades, trenches, barbed wire, etc.
That’s pretty much clear evidence of the futility of discussion.
Also just about every 'group' you might associate yourself with has already dug in somewhere & has established defensive lines.
That’s where people get most of their information. Environmentalists get their information from environmentalist groups. Pro-lifers get their information from pro-life groups. Etc, etc. And the information isn’t meant to inform, but to confirm the feelings of the faithful. The unfaithful can usually easily pick the information apart, and then you’re back to discussing feelings. See above.
Lastly, bones are everywhere, and you may be angry over past losses.
That’s called experience. And one should learn from it.
I think one possible solution is to come at such things as if its the first time you heard it and only bring your own thoughts.
And bring one’s own feelings. But frankly I think the best way is to argue the opposite of what you believe, so you can perhaps see the other viewpoint. However, most people can’t put their feelings aside to do that.
Do not mention any group (ie party, religion, generation, race) or use exsisting slogans associated with them. I think bringing such up triggers pre-exsisting animosities and people can assume you are only repeating what you heard or something someone has drilled into you.
Then a lot of people aren’t going to have much to say.
Further, when it comes to idealogy, or beliefs there is no criteria to rate it.
And there is no criteria to dispute it. For example, if I believe in the Bible, then I believe in the Bible, and my faith is more convincing to me than any argument of logic. Same with feelings.
All must be considered equally valid sources, whether it is based on logic, a book, or fortune cookies. But such I think are better left in the backround
So Aristotle's Organon is out the window?
To put it another way, I think people are interested in what you think more then what 'such & such group' thinks.
But usually people end up more interested in discussing my lack of intelligence, the illegitimacy of my ancestry, and the funny way my mother dresses me.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 6:20pm
Post #45 of 64
(641 views)
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oh, I don't find Darkstone annoying at all
And I try so hard.
*pulls Annael's pigtails*
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 6:28pm
Post #46 of 64
(632 views)
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So it’s rather fascinating in a morbid sort of way to watch two people generating a very long thread to see at what point they give up discussing the topic at hand and start discussing each other.
Thank you. I am going to be more aware of that in future!
I am reminded of a Pratchett quote that Tehanu had as her footer for a long time: That's where people get it wrong. Individuals aren't naturally paid-up members of the human race, except biologically. They need to be bounced around by the Brownian motion of society, which is a mechanism by which human beings constantly remind one another that they are . . . well . . . human beings.
I'd find it very interesting to discuss what has changed people's minds, sometime. Not on specific issues perhaps, but just what it took for them to switch out of their old rut.
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 11 2008, 6:42pm
Post #47 of 64
(630 views)
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my mom always told me that when a boy did that, it meant he liked me!
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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orcbane
Gondor
Sep 11 2008, 7:16pm
Post #48 of 64
(624 views)
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my mom always told me that when a boy did that, it meant he liked me!
When I was a kid, I used to throw rocks at the girls I liked.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 11 2008, 7:47pm
Post #49 of 64
(600 views)
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3. Don't post under the influence of mind-altering substances. (This includes outrage. Wait until you've cooled down a bit.)
How simply and perfectly true, Idril.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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orcbane
Gondor
Sep 11 2008, 8:29pm
Post #50 of 64
(631 views)
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How many times have you seen RotK ?
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I would like to see the discussions continue.
Why? I mean that as an honest question. What exactly do you want it to accomplish? What do you think that it will accomplish? I certainly can't answer all your questions, or at least not quickly. But in general I think it has to do with discussions on Tolkien alone, not being enough for me. I am continually drawn to the more intriguing or troubling subjects of our RL. But as far as what I think you are stating: that no one ever changes there mind as a result of these discussions, I can say it isn't true for me. If anything I change too often. I also think others do change, probably not as drastically, in varying ways and times. Some have even mentioned in this thread that they have gotten some new insights. Sometimes you pick a piece up here, another there, and over time you come to new conclusions. I also had a feeling that we, in our society may have to a large degree lost the art of discussing issues. But this is just a supposition...Issue after issue is in a sense banned. Are we left with only being able to discuss Hobbit cast rumors and weather ? (but not global warming!). It was kind of a spin-off thought from the original "Are we dumbing down our society'. Anyway Darkstone, I do not mind your questions, especially when down & to the real point. That is what a Darkstone does. But can you maybe combine them into just 2-3 next time. As far as whether or how this type of thread should continue, well that is what I am asking. If I got a resounding, or even just a few objections I would cease them. And then there are the Mods. Did I mention what a perfectly charming group of Mods we have ? Oh, and Hengist! Have you two met ? I think he builds fences or something.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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, though we do have fluffy on our side.
