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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 10 2008, 10:29am
Post #26 of 141
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are indeed for discussion, we expect message board members to act respectfully towards each other - and telling another member, particularly one as long-standing and well-read as Silverlode, that they don't know what they're talking about isn't respectful. Keep in mind that we are here to debate the topic and not the quality of the poster who is being responded to.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Ataahua's stories
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 10 2008, 2:51pm
Post #28 of 141
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If you click on my link in the comparison post
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there's a breakdown and closeup of each of those staves. :) In that same post, there are 2 pictures of his staff used between Rivendell and Moria... the one that holds the crystal to light their way.
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 10 2008, 2:56pm
Post #29 of 141
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One used between the Shire and Isengard; one used between Rivendell and Moria; one used from Fangorn to when the Witch-king destroys it (which only appears in the extended version); and then a duplicate of that one which shows up at the Grey Havens. Good point :) I guess if you only saw the theatrical version, there would be 3 staves. During the actual filming, that Grey Havens scene was filmed before the Witch-king episode. Just a bit of trivia :)
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 10 2008, 3:08pm
Post #30 of 141
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Actually, we do see the old one broken
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at the Bridge of Kahaz-dum:
'You cannot pass!' he said. With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed. 'He cannot stand alone!' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf!' 'Gondor!' cried Boromir and leaped after him. At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness. and it's the same staff he had at Isengard, if we can rely on Frodo's dream
In the dead night, Frodo lay in a dream without light. Then he saw the young moon rising; under its thin light there loomed before him a black wall of rock, pierced by a dark arch like a great gate. It seemed to Frodo that he was lifted up, and passing over he saw that the rock-wall was a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man. The moon as it rose seemed to hang for a moment above his head and glistened in his white hair as the wind stirred it. Up from the dark plain below came the crying of fell voices, and the howling of many wolves. Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away. The voices wailed and the wolves yammered. Gandalf reappears in Fangorn with his new staff. The film shows this too, but the descriptions don't match.
'But we did not wish to come to Fangorn,' said Gimli. 'Yet here we are—and nicely caught in the net,' said Legolas. 'Look!' 'Look at what?' said Gimli. 'There in the trees.' 'Where? I have not elf-eyes.' 'Hush! Speak more softly! Look!' said Legolas pointing. 'Down in the wood, back in the way that we have just come. It is he. Cannot you see him, passing from tree to tree?' 'I see, I see now!' hissed Gimli. 'Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.' Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed, and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power—or menace. So, in the book, I can find only 2 staves used. Hmmmm.... this is fascinating!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 10 2008, 4:26pm
Post #31 of 141
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Oh! Saruman kept it, I'll betcha.
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Ask a simple question, get a BUNCH of answers! I love this place!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 10 2008, 4:44pm
Post #32 of 141
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Gandalf making his own staff. With the aid of Treebeard (?), or at least the blessing of the woods, walking through the forest until he finds a spent sapling no older than about 8 years. A specific tree (mallorn? rowan?) that can hold/carry/absorb those special attributes Gandalf alone would pass to it... able to become a conduit. I've always assumed he used small trees with the root system as the top. I love how Jackson/Weta had his first staff very personalized. Carries his pipe, has his mark carved into it, etc. Did he whittle on it during those lonely nights by a campfire? Fashioning a way to hold his pipe so it wasn't jabbing him in his pocket or getting broken in a pack/pouch/bag? He did travel very light most times. I worry about things like that. And yes... I DO have a life :D A bit cluttered, but functional.
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 10 2008, 5:52pm
Post #33 of 141
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... that a wizard's staff is powerful in itself. But I'd say that the staff is just a tool for channeling the wizard's own power, so it's really not that important when or where Gandalf gets a new staff. If you want to imagine that Gandalf somehow gets his staff back after escaping from Orthanc, and just changes the shape of it, sure, why not? It really doesn't matter. It's not the staff that provides Gandalf's power, it's Gandalf himself, using the staff to focus and channel it. wouldn't Saruman have stockpiled them just incase his staff was broken? Having a stockpile would do you no good, if the staffs have no power of their own. Saruman having his staff broken by Gandalf was symbolic - like a military officer having his stripes ripped off when he's demoted. Gandalf had taken away Saruman's power, and no matter how many staffs he had lying around afterwards, he couldn't have made them do very much. That's how I read it anyway. Sauron may have made the foolish error of placing his power in an external object, but I don't think that's the case with the wizards.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
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weaver
Half-elven
Sep 10 2008, 6:16pm
Post #34 of 141
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"a tool for channeling the wizard's own power..."
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I like the way you put that, about how a wizard's staff works... I always liked the part of the wizard duel where Saruman succeeds in getting Gandalf's staff from him, and then marches toward him wielding the two staffs at him... Seems kind of like some forms of martial arts,which teach techniques for using an enemy's strength against him/her. It's only when Saruman has "both" staffs that he can overpower Gandalf... So, it's not the staff that has the power, but the staff which allows the wizard to channel what power they have. Who knew there was so much to talk about on this subject???
Weaver
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 10 2008, 6:22pm
Post #35 of 141
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Sounds fab to me. :)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Ataahua's stories
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 10 2008, 6:30pm
Post #36 of 141
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That's a great shot of Gandalf's pipe
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inside the staff! I hadn't spotted it before.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Ataahua's stories
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weaver
Half-elven
Sep 10 2008, 6:49pm
Post #37 of 141
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So, he not only gets a new staff when he flies out of there, he gets a new pipe, too! No wonder he looks so miserable up there on that tower -- not only is he a prisoner, it's raining, and he can't even smoke to pass the time!
Weaver
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 10 2008, 7:02pm
Post #38 of 141
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He was on withdrawal, after all Sometimes I wonder - all of them ran out of pipeweed sooner or later. Did that have no effect at all? I have a few friends who gave up smoking, and it didn't improve on their mood at all.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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weaver
Half-elven
Sep 10 2008, 7:03pm
Post #39 of 141
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oh, right, yes, that was your question...
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Hmm...what "did" Saruman do with Gandalf's staff? Coat tree? Pipe rack? Perhaps he had it mounted and hung it over his fireplace? My take is that Saruman would not have destroyed it, as he likes to hedge his bets, so to speak. As long as there was a chance Gandalf would come out on the winning side, Saruman would like to have something to work with to get back in his good graces again. Gandalf's staff might be valuable to him as a form of leverage. I can't see him getting rid of it, at least not right away. I have no source to back this up, though!
Weaver
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weaver
Half-elven
Sep 10 2008, 7:06pm
Post #40 of 141
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and no caffeine or wine either!
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I don't smoke, but I know if you put me on a tower without coffee or wine, I would be REALLY cranky... Poor Gandalf!
Weaver
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 10 2008, 7:10pm
Post #41 of 141
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(and I don't smoke, too) but for me it would be coffee and chocolate!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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weaver
Half-elven
Sep 10 2008, 7:53pm
Post #43 of 141
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well, probably not a good idea to drink wine up there anyway!
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C h e e r s SPLAT.
Weaver
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 10 2008, 7:54pm
Post #44 of 141
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what he had got soaked!!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..." I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world. TORn's Observations Lists
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Sep 10 2008, 7:58pm
Post #45 of 141
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See what you did? How could you forget the security rail around your tower?
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 10 2008, 10:15pm
Post #46 of 141
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gramma, I actually went back to watch The Fellowship Of The Ring last night, and the staff that you see before he visits Isenguard, is the same one it shows him carrying in Rivendell. So, my original point that he simply could have changed the look of his staff still stands. Gandalf never got a new one at that time in the book, and it was never suggested that he did in the Movies.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 10 2008, 10:20pm
Post #47 of 141
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"... that a wizard's staff is powerful in itself. But I'd say that the staff is just a tool for channeling the wizard's own power, so it's really not that important when or where Gandalf gets a new staff. If you want to imagine that Gandalf somehow gets his staff back after escaping from Orthanc, and just changes the shape of it, sure, why not? It really doesn't matter. It's not the staff that provides Gandalf's power, it's Gandalf himself, using the staff to focus and channel it." That's actually true, and that's why I believe he very easily could have changed the shape of it. I wasn't necessarily assuming that the staff held the power, though we are talking about the Movies here, and not the books, since posters here claim that we aren't allowed to tie the book in with the Movies, because they are totally seperate things, according to them.
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Legolas123
The Shire
Sep 10 2008, 10:31pm
Post #48 of 141
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"are indeed for discussion, we expect message board members to act respectfully towards each other - and telling another member, particularly one as long-standing and well-read as Silverlode, that they don't know what they're talking about isn't respectful. Keep in mind that we are here to debate the topic and not the quality of the poster who is being responded to." First off, if there's one thing I've learned as a long time message board veteran, including many Lord Of The Rings Forums, and a couple of them as moderators, it's that the amount of time one has been on a particular board shouldn't matter as it pertains to who gets those "specially" perks, so to speak. I am a life long fan of the books, I own every Movie (both VHS and extended DVD's) and Book of The Lord Of The Rings, including ones that are merely related to it (i.e The Hobbit), and every Game aside from the ones on the PC. I am not trying to "show off" what I own, I'm sure there are those who own even more than I do, my point is just because he has been on this particular board for a long time, and I haven't, does not mean anything as it pertains to either of our knowledge. I don't know him enough to say I know more than him, and so I won't assume that I do. On my side, I feel 100% positive in my beliefs on this topic, but I realize that he may feel the same way on his beliefs on this topic. With that said, I also didn't mean it the way I said it. I didn't mean to tell him he has no idea what he's talking about, I'm sure you guys don't pick moderators that don't know what they are talking about. So I do apologize, to Silverlode, I should and could have put what I said in a better way, and I didn't actually mean it the way I said it.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 10 2008, 11:03pm
Post #50 of 141
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...my point is just because he has been on this particular board for a long time... I don't know him enough to say I know more than him, and so I won't assume that I do... I realize that he may feel the same way on his beliefs... I didn't mean to tell him he has no idea what he's talking about... Emphasis added, of course. Just FYI.
On the contrary, you missed mine. To be blunt, you don't fully know what you are talking about. The Maiar are simply a lesser Valar, which is another term for the Ainur. No that's not true. The Valar and the Maiar are two sub-classes of the Ainur. While all Valar (and Maiar) are Ainur, not all Ainur are Valar. Some Ainur are neither Valar nor Maiar. Check the "Ainulindalë" and the "Valaquenta" again to confirm.
There are only 14 Lords and Queens of the Valar. Quite so.
Other members are considered the lesser Valar. There are lesser Valar, and then there are Maiar. They are not the same. Also, the word "Maiar" is never used in LotR, and the word "Valar" is only explained (sort of) in the Appendices.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Sep. 8-14 for "The Passing of the Grey Company". +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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