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Can we relate ? (2) - Fighting on old battlefields
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orcbane
Gondor


Sep 10 2008, 1:27pm

Post #1 of 64 (1664 views)
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Can we relate ? (2) - Fighting on old battlefields Can't Post

We are all aware of how discussions on certain subjects tend to become over-heated and end up with hurt feelings. Yet they are also some of the more important (RL affecting) issues and logically you would think they are therefore important to discuss. Some, perhaps most, don't really come to this forum with that in mind, or have that urge satisfied elsewhere. But some, myself included, do not have much opportunity to discuss it elsewhere. And perhaps being fans of the same subject, start at least with some similiar viewpoints. I would like to see the discussions continue. However, just in a few weeks, I have seen at least two casualties, and for all I know I may have contributed to the hurt feelings. Or perhaps its your fault! (points finger at youWink). it is about that I ask the next question.

How can we better talk about sensitive subjects without arrousing personnal conflicts ?

The main problem I see is that these subjects have already been fought over so much, that the ground is strewn with barricades, trenches, barbed wire, etc. Also just about every 'group' you might associate yourself with has already dug in somewhere & has established defensive lines. Lastly, bones are everywhere, and you may be angry over past losses.

I think one possible solution is to come at such things as if its the first time you heard it and only bring your own thoughts. Do not mention any group (ie party, religion, generation, race) or use exsisting slogans associated with them. I think bringing such up triggers pre-exsisting animosities and people can assume you are only repeating what you heard or something someone has drilled into you. I do not question the validity of such groups. We all have to come up in something and will pick things up along the way. Further, when it comes to idealogy, or beliefs there is no criteria to rate it. All must be considered equally valid sources, whether it is based on logic, a book, or fortune cookies. But such I think are better left in the backround. To put it another way, I think people are interested in what you think more then what 'such & such group' thinks.

And humor. Lots of humor. But please don't be offended by my poor taste in humor. You see, to me the greatest men that ever lived were The Three Stooges.

The funniest fall & accident video I have found. Good song too! Green Day - Holiday

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GoCqvnJFUUA



An Ent juggling spikey things ?


Annael
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 2:29pm

Post #2 of 64 (1291 views)
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something I've been thinking a lot about lately [In reply to] Can't Post

When someone disagrees with us, we usually jump to the conclusion that since they disagree, they believe the opposite. You know - if you're not "green" then you must not care at all about the environment, if you're not "pro-life" then you must think it's okay to kill babies, that kind of thinking. The opposite is usually that absurd. Which makes it awfully easy to then think that if someone disagrees with me - if they think the absurd opposite is true - then they must be either stupid, deluded, messed up, or evil.

And if they are that, why, it's all too easy to despise them. Why bother listening to someone like that? You won't get sense from them.

At one point one of the more conservative folks here (I'll leave it up to them whether or not to identify themselves) and I got into a long e-mail exchange about the very things we disagree on. We managed to keep it respectful and actually listen to what the other person was saying. From that exchange I eventually realized that we don't hold opposite opinions at all. We pretty much agreed on what the problems were. Where we differed was on how to fix those problems. And as we talked about that, I came to see that we were operating from very different assumptions about the world, the nature of evil, and people. Those assumptions had been ingrained in both of us from so early on, they were part of us. We really couldn't see things any other way. We eventually realized we would never get to a point of agreement because of that. All we could do was agree to disagree.

But it helped me to see that this person's opinions, which I had thought were 180 degrees from mine, were more like . . . 90 degrees in some cases, 45 degrees in some, and only 10 degrees at times This person's beliefs weren't opposite, they were different. And I could respect them, even kind of understand them. I still thought I was right, but I was also aware of why I thought I was right, and why this other person thought they were right. And why all the arguments either of us could muster would never work on the other.

The only thing that can change these ingrained assumptions is a life-altering, dramatic event, I suspect.

I know for myself that when I get all heated up and feel I must respond, it's not because I'm trying to change anyone else's mind. It's always because someone has accused me of thinking the opposite (and therefore being stupid, deluded, evil, whatever). And - man, I just can't let that one lie, I have to say "NO, I don't think that way." No one likes being unjustly accused. I wonder if that's where most of the heat others feel comes from?

/ soapbox

The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Tintallë
Gondor

Sep 10 2008, 3:14pm

Post #3 of 64 (1271 views)
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You hit one nail on the head for me, at least. [In reply to] Can't Post

Differences of opinion are interesting to me and I enjoy exchanging ideas with others who are willing to question and be questioned. For me, those discussions break down when assumptions are made about how I think or feel based on my age/generational culture, profession, gender, etc. Assumptions (which are often unjust accusations) can be quite offensive, especially when they are delivered with authority and smugness. Sweeping generalizations bother me, too.

My sister is very apt to make generalizations based on her own perceptions and opinions, never allowing that others may have different and perfectly valid viewpoints that are not "silly" or "nonsense" (her favorite words) but just different. Drives me nuts.


orcbane
Gondor


Sep 10 2008, 3:14pm

Post #4 of 64 (1266 views)
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Monsters of the Id [In reply to] Can't Post

That you went the full course with someone of different views and kept it cool is pretty darn close to the best you can do. It requires a lot of effort by the participants and does not happen often. Its maybe easiest one on one, and progressively harder the more people involved. Even though you may not have altered each others views much, you did much to reduce the all too common demonizing that occurs.

Yes, flexible thinking or changing your thinking has generally been said to be more difficult the older you are. Too bad that you get your wisdom from experience when you least can do something with it. I heard one person say that that is why it is best/easiest to get married young. But let me leave the marriage subject for another time, if ever. Laugh But I think there may be more changing going on inside, then is realized, but at a very slow rate. I have often seen people do about faces on issues, without big events, but because there is disillusionment going on. But I notice they do not express there slowly changing views much. More often I see them hold onto there old views until the dam breaks & then flip out !

The Big & Dramatic Experience has also been long considered one of the few things powerful enough to get people out of long worn grooves. I always wondered about its effects on Bob Shaye, when he came out of a near death coma during the disputes with PJ, ectera.

Lastly you mention that very interesting denizen of our deeps: The Ego. I have to use it in a probably old outdated way, because I know nothing about modern...Phy..Syc..mind stuff. I can't even spell it. I do wonder if our Forum Ego's different from our RL Ego. I would guess it is. By coincidence, I mentioned the "monsters of the Id' on the thread that spawned this one. I heard it used in the old Sci-Fi movie "Forbidden Planet" I loved that film & monster special effect. Are our 'monsters of the Id' ,so called, as Tolkien might put it, given similiar power to live via these PCs, like on Forums ? Is that what Trolls are ? Did I just hijack my own thread ? Laugh



An Ent juggling spikey things ?


SirDennisC
Half-elven

Sep 10 2008, 4:21pm

Post #5 of 64 (1260 views)
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It's a problem with this form of communication [In reply to] Can't Post

Since body language is taken out of the equation, and their substitute (emoticons) are inadequate at best, differences in opinion often come across as harsh rejection of the person.

But do not lose hope. I've made friends for life with people that I was diametrically positioned. One in particular -- he was a right winger, I a left. Strangely it was easier to get along (online) with him than people who were supposed to be my allies. after a while I came to realize that he could be trusted to object to many of my ideas (and I his) but it was not personal. Eventually we met in RL so we could get to know each other better; I asked another guy that often butted heads with the right winger to come along (someone I had never met) and we all became fast friends. The third guy often came across as harsh because he was new to the english language and had even fewer options to create flowery text. Between the 3 of us we had politics and religion as potential barriers. But the thing that drew us together was the urge to understand through conversation rather than winning arguements. I think we all saw in each other the effect of our different ideas taking hold on one another over several meetings at a local coffee vendor. The slow change in perspective is a greater win than beating someone into submission.


greendragon
Sr. Staff


Sep 10 2008, 6:18pm

Post #6 of 64 (1247 views)
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for me, this just isn't the place for such discussions [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is not a reason why others shouldn't discuss away to their hearts' content. I just prefer not to discuss religion or politics here. One reason, as has been pointed out, is that without body language or facial expressions it is very hard to guage the tone or indeed even the precise meaning of what is being written. It all comes down, in linguistic terms, to entailment and implicature; most statements mean very little by entailment but IMPLY a great deal. When much meaning, therefore, can only be interpreted by implicature, which is communicated as much by inflection, gesture, etc. as by actual words, then without those extra, physical layers to translate, it simply isn't possible to understand what exactly is meant by a statement. Then misunderstandings arise and arguments occur...

I have many very dear friends from TORn, many of whom are now RL friends too. We all have different religious and political viewpoints but that doesn't affect our friendships. I DO enjoy discussing politics and religion with some of these friends, and have learned many things from such discussions; but these are usually one on one conversations and ALWAYS in RL, with eye contact and with no chance for hurt feelings!

However, apparently I do enjoy discussing the nature of discussions... Wink

'There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of my fridge...'

'You never know what will happen next, when once you get mixed up with TORnsibs and their friends.'


Annael
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 7:13pm

Post #7 of 64 (1237 views)
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I'm so happy to read [In reply to] Can't Post

that others are interested in understanding those who are different too. Being more interested in understanding people than in shouting matches about who is right/wrong can be a lonely place to be sometimes . . .

The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 7:27pm

Post #8 of 64 (1241 views)
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That's how I got to be "Aunt Dora" [In reply to] Can't Post

I've told this story before, but it applies here. I was in an e-mail correspondence with my right-wing gun-nut anti-gay fundamentalist-Christian nephew-in-law Dudley, who is also a big Tolkien fan. We talked about some issues that we passionately disagreed about, but we were able to do so in a calm and even friendly manner. I don't think we'll ever change each other's minds on gay rights or religion, but I have changed my views a bit on gun control. I had been passionate about it ever since I was eleven and Bobby Kennedy was shot, but now I'm more in the middle (my son is a self-described left-wing gun nut).

I think partly Dudley was being so gentle in our conversation because he was really hoping to convert me and save my poor condemned soul, but he wasn't overt about it. He gave me a book called "Finding God in Lord of the Rings", for which I was grateful, and I expect his family probably prays for me, for which I'm also grateful, but so far it hasn't taken.

And I may have changed his mind a bit too. One night his group surrounded our church wth bullhorns and guns and really scared our minister, and I told him how very upset I was by that, and I'm pretty sure he won't be doing that again.

Anyway, your post makes a very good point, about pushing people to the opposite point of view if they disagree with you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 10 2008, 8:21pm

Post #9 of 64 (1340 views)
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One thing that *always* comes up... [In reply to] Can't Post

and the thing that nearly always causes the discussion to break down, is argument styles. Two, in particular.

Style 1 - Logic A discussion is a challenge! It's a game of facts and reason. The person who marshalls the best facts and uses reason most cleverly wins.

In the heat of battle, when confronted with people not impressed by their logic, this style often replies with something similar to this attitude:

"All who oppose me are simply too dim to comprehend my unassailable logic! My sledgehammer of reason will crush all you tiny ants of no brains, and you shall admit my superior thought process!"

Style 2 - Relational A discussion is a place where we get to talk about stuff important to me! There are lots of shades of gray, and I know people with all different views, and they're nice, normal people. The most important thing is to get things talked about so we can understand each other.

In the heat of battle, when confronted by black-and-white sledgehammer-wielding types, they often react this way:

"Ack! You just squished my Aunt! And you stepped on my brother-in-law! How dare you, you arrogant, insulting jerk!"

...I don't think I need to draw anyone a picture of what happens from this point on. All too often, neither can see any merit in the other person's style, and so neither of them makes any allowance for it. I can't tell you how many flame wars have been started on this scenario.

I wish that everyone would take stock of their own style and remember that in any heated discussion, you will encounter the other kind. Learn to know it when you see it, and take it into account when you reply (or not) to them. It would save the Admins an awful lot of aggravation if once in a while, a Logician would realize that they are talking to a Relator and trade their sledgehammer in for something a little lighter. And if the Relators could realize that it truly never occurs to a Logician that there is another viable tool for measurement, and they probably really didn't mean it how it sounded.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


greendragon
Sr. Staff


Sep 10 2008, 9:12pm

Post #10 of 64 (1231 views)
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Brilliant Silverlode! [In reply to] Can't Post

Very well put and also highly amusing! "My sledgehammer of reason will crush all you tiny ants of no brains!" - I'm going to use that line at work as often as I possibly can.

Which won't be often - but I'll try... Wink

'There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of my fridge...'

'You never know what will happen next, when once you get mixed up with TORnsibs and their friends.'


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 9:36pm

Post #11 of 64 (1229 views)
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*takes notes* [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm learning so much useful information from this thread, things I've never thought of before.

On other boards I've seen discussions deteriorate into shouting matches, and your comments apply. But of course there are also the trolls on those boards, who enjoy baiting everybody.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Sep 10 2008, 10:36pm

Post #12 of 64 (1208 views)
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Figures that on a femine board like this the Logicians would be the heavies./ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Cum bak 2 me... cum bak 2 me... & say my land iz teh r0xx0r lol.


silneldor
Half-elven


Sep 10 2008, 10:43pm

Post #13 of 64 (1250 views)
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I say, arm everyone with smiley nurfballs and lets have at it! [In reply to] Can't Post

One reason i hang around here with yous guys is that i love you....Why? It is because you are deeply reflective, sensitive, strongly moral and ethical, and have a profound sense of joy discovering the beautiful whether it is within our own humanity or the world about us.
I feel that we must always realize that what unites us and holds us together vastly out brightens our differences.

I am inclined to sit quietly and listen rather than be compelled to speak. At times there are a few right answers, and sometimes none. I think patience will be what emits the most light in the end.

whizzzz... hipshots nurfball to orcbaneLaugh

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez

After Sunset
I have an understanding with the hills
At evening, when slanted radiance fills
Their hollows, and the great winds let them be,
And they are quiet and look down at me.
Oh, then I see the patience in their eyes
Out of the centuries that made them wise.
They lend me hoarded memory, and I learn
Their thoughts of granite and their whims of fern,
And why a dream of forests must endure
Though every tree be slain; and how the pure,
Invisible beauty has a word so brief
A flower can say it, or a shaken leaf,
But few may ever snare it in a song,
Though for the quest a life is not too long.
When the blue hills grow tender, when they pull
The twilight close with gesture beautiful,
And shadows are their garments, and the air
Deepens, and the wild veery is at prayer,
Their arms are strong around me; and I know
That somehow I shall follow where you go
To the still land beyond the evening star,
Where everlasting hills and valleys are,
And silence may not hurt us any more,
And terror shall be past, and grief and war.

Grace Hazard Conkling (conclusion of a song recital from the book Lake Minnewaska by W Doughty where he says ''this is not the end of songs which we are certain will continue to rise from gifted minds and hearts in this enchanted realm where sometimes 'great mists lie' but always where 'great dreams rise' ''.) ...Reminds me particularly of the elves and the ents


May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'








Magpie
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 11:07pm

Post #14 of 64 (1221 views)
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nicely spoken. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you've made some astute observations about all of this, Annael. Especially in regards to how our personal paradigms shape how we approach a problem or issue. It's fascinating to me how things that might seem perfectly defacto or obvious to me just aren't to someone in a different economic class, from a different ethnic background, from a different geographic area. I think, even if my mind isn't changed, it always feels broader to stop a moment, try hard to listen to someone else, and get a sense of why they think they way they think.


Quote
I know for myself that when I get all heated up and feel I must respond, it's not because I'm trying to change anyone else's mind. It's always because someone has accused me of thinking the opposite (and therefore being stupid, deluded, evil, whatever). And - man, I just can't let that one lie, I have to say "NO, I don't think that way." No one likes being unjustly accused. I wonder if that's where most of the heat others feel comes from?


Oh, man... is that ever true for me. I can be calm... calm... calm... calm... and then, someone will say in disagreement with me, "You just say that because..." when it has nothing to do with that. Or someone will call my position irrational, or crazy. The switch gets flipped pretty quickly then.

I've gotten to the point that, not only will I not discuss potentially contentious issues with most people, I won't even be open and honest about the 'real feelings' I have with most people. These things are important to me. I don't debate political or theogolical issues for sport... like a debater would. They matter deeply to me. When I open up and share things that matter I expect and demand respect. And, sure as shootin'... someone fails to see respect for my opinion as important. Additionally, what often keeps people from flipping out: putting a tone on a reponse that was never intended... or reading something into it... or assuming if I said A then I must think B, C, D, and E.. or assuming if I think A then I must X kind of person... what keeps that from happening comes down to one of two things. The other person is good at not doing those things as a rule (think the best facilitators.. or moderators.. or negotiators...) or they care about me. They think, I like her. She doesn't seem like a bad person. I don't know what I think about what she just said but I'm not going to jump to conclusions. I'm not going to assume things. I'm either going to think, 'she's having a bad day, let me see how she is tomorrow' or I'm going to ask her why she thinks what she does, why she said what she said and I'm going to listen. So, basically, people got to know me.

So, I just steer way clear of these things when I can. The hard part is when a fairly benign statement of mine seems to prompt some strong response and I think, dang... I didn't see that coming. I shouldha shut up.




magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Tintallë
Gondor

Sep 10 2008, 11:11pm

Post #15 of 64 (1235 views)
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Is there not another style? [In reply to] Can't Post

How about "Dismissive," as in "Yes, I understand your point of view, poor thing, but you are just not as informed and involved as I am and so only I know how things REALLY are and you and your viewpoints are nothing more than a prisoner of your [sheltered, myopic] life and times." In a meaner world it could alternatively be labeled "Smug" or quite possibly "Insufferably Conceited."

From my perspective, two notable problems with serious discussions on a message board are that 1) as has been already noted, the words are stark black and white on the page without the added benefit of body language, and 2) there is no possibility of the immediate back-and-forth that makes face-to-face conversations dynamic and practically crackling with life. Instead people have time to compose their messages and their thoughts, making them much more likely to refute another's views with great focus and deliberation of thought, which can result in a rather overpowering response.

My opinions only.


greendragon
Sr. Staff


Sep 10 2008, 11:16pm

Post #16 of 64 (1231 views)
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beautifully put sil! [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you sure those painkillers aren't making you just a little sentimental, my friend? Tongue But joking apart, very nicely put and I agree with you. Although a few nurfballs around here wouldn't hurt! Sly

Hope you are recovering well!

'There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of my fridge...'

'You never know what will happen next, when once you get mixed up with TORnsibs and their friends.'


greendragon
Sr. Staff


Sep 10 2008, 11:17pm

Post #17 of 64 (1243 views)
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Sorry, I fail to see the logic in that statement... [In reply to] Can't Post

And how dare you call we ladies 'heavy'?? Tongue

'There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of my fridge...'

'You never know what will happen next, when once you get mixed up with TORnsibs and their friends.'


Annael
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 11:23pm

Post #18 of 64 (1207 views)
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s'mores! [In reply to] Can't Post


I used to hand these out when things were getting heated; I should have done it yesterday too.

The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
- Terry Pratchett
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


a.s.
Valinor


Sep 10 2008, 11:31pm

Post #19 of 64 (1212 views)
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you say you need a smilie nerf ball? [In reply to] Can't Post



Closest thing I've got, sil.

Don't toss it too hard, I think those eyes could really hurt a guy if they clunked him in the head.

a.s. (apologies all round if my part in any recent discussions prompted this thread. Toss the ball my way, if anyone feels the need. Just watch my glasses.)

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

Call Her Emily


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 11:34pm

Post #20 of 64 (1243 views)
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Hey, Silverlode [In reply to] Can't Post

In my reply to Annael above, I said some people are just good at this stuff... I was thinking of you.

I've come to realize this is a huge factor for me. I can't deal with the Logic debater at all. It's not that I don't want to. Or that I can't get along with them otherwise. It's that I can't every discuss in a way that suits their style and they won't ever respect mine. Well, I say 'won't ever' and I don't think that's true. I suspect there are a few people on these boards that fall into the Logic category that I'm quite fond of and I think always deal with me respectfully. So I guess I'm talking about the Logic based debater that refuses to step outside their comfort zone to allow for other styles.



magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


silneldor
Half-elven


Sep 10 2008, 11:52pm

Post #21 of 64 (1211 views)
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INCOMING! [In reply to] Can't Post

Multiple lobbing pink smiley nurfball sorties aloftSly.

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez

After Sunset
I have an understanding with the hills
At evening, when slanted radiance fills
Their hollows, and the great winds let them be,
And they are quiet and look down at me.
Oh, then I see the patience in their eyes
Out of the centuries that made them wise.
They lend me hoarded memory, and I learn
Their thoughts of granite and their whims of fern,
And why a dream of forests must endure
Though every tree be slain; and how the pure,
Invisible beauty has a word so brief
A flower can say it, or a shaken leaf,
But few may ever snare it in a song,
Though for the quest a life is not too long.
When the blue hills grow tender, when they pull
The twilight close with gesture beautiful,
And shadows are their garments, and the air
Deepens, and the wild veery is at prayer,
Their arms are strong around me; and I know
That somehow I shall follow where you go
To the still land beyond the evening star,
Where everlasting hills and valleys are,
And silence may not hurt us any more,
And terror shall be past, and grief and war.

Grace Hazard Conkling (conclusion of a song recital from the book Lake Minnewaska by W Doughty where he says ''this is not the end of songs which we are certain will continue to rise from gifted minds and hearts in this enchanted realm where sometimes 'great mists lie' but always where 'great dreams rise' ''.) ...Reminds me particularly of the elves and the ents


May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'








orcbane
Gondor


Sep 11 2008, 12:54am

Post #22 of 64 (1225 views)
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Silly names for Mods might help [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a problem with unusual name pronounciation. Do you think it might have something to do with not being able to spell? Let me start by saying: ahem, we have a great bunch of Mods. I just want to hug and squeeze them to death. But its those names darn it. Who started the indesipherable & unpronouncable name tradition at TORn anyway. I would say I want their name but I couldn't do anything with it. Anyway, to me they are:

Daffy (The Great Forum Spirit)
Silvador
Kidney Bean
Anti-Taria
Atu-Atu-Aaaaaa

Do you have any really good Mod names ?

Not being serious of course (Well actually I do use a some of these, in my mind Laugh).

But I actually had a point, to add. A valid point ? Noooo ? Yes, I had one. And If I stop interrupting myself I can get on with it. In the various units I was in (Yes I am a Borg) I came to see, that after The Leader, the next most important person as far as morale went was often The Joker. But it could go two very different ways. 1) The good way: It did not matter if their joking was personnel (actually those pointing out of foibles, was often the most hysterical), as long as it was indiscriminate. Everybody gets it. Laugh, yes laugh, because tommorrow its going to be you. And in fact a newcomers first feeling of acceptance might be being the target. The stress relief, especially in the mind numbing situations was invaluable and I felt a key ingredient of the best morale & working together. 2) The bad way: The jokes are personnel but tend to fall on specific targets, and are borderline if not plainly mean. This really screwed up morale royaley. Anyway, we have some good jokers here (I am not one, I am The Fool which is different) and many members sometimes join in. So I would say, do not consider one joke or poke on yourself as being ill-meant. It may be the persons way of trying to relate and make things more relaxed. If its repeated, or not comfortable thats a different thing, & handled differently.



An Ent juggling spikey things ?


batik
Tol Eressea


Sep 11 2008, 1:20am

Post #23 of 64 (1194 views)
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and then sometimes of bit of poetry is a good thing [In reply to] Can't Post

"Isn't it strange that princes and kings
and clowns that caper in sawdust rings
and common people, like you and me
are builders for eternity?
Each is given a bag of tools, a shapeless mass, a book of rules
and each must make 'ere life has flown
A stumbling block or a stepping stone."
R.L. Sharpe


or ...
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
JRR Tolkien via Gandalf


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 11 2008, 1:51am

Post #24 of 64 (1254 views)
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Of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are multiple styles, including the one you mentioned. There's also the It's All About ME, the Don't Bother Me with Facts, etc. Wink

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 11 2008, 2:29am

Post #25 of 64 (1228 views)
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Oh, quit whining. [In reply to] Can't Post

You just don't want to admit that I'm more right than anybody else in the whole world.

Tongue

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories

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