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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
FOTR question
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Child of Manwe
Rivendell


Sep 8 2008, 1:30pm

Post #1 of 141 (899 views)
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FOTR question Can't Post

So when Gandalf goes to consult with Saruman at Orthanc...and Saruman takes Gandalf's staff...and throws him through the roof....

How does Gandalf get his staff back at Rivendell if he flew away on Gawhir? Does he have a closet full of them?

"Fear, Fire, Foes...Awake! Awake!"

"Ash nazg durzag, ash nazg grimbaultuk..."

ringwraiths27


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 8 2008, 4:33pm

Post #2 of 141 (332 views)
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It's a different staff :) [In reply to] Can't Post

The first one he has is shaped so it carries his piped where it can be set down in from the top. The one he has when they go to Moria hold a crystal that lights the way and is of a different shape. He also has a different one... much more noticeably... when he become Gandalf the White.

So, throughout the film, he has 3 different staves. I'd like to see that first one used in The Hobbit! *twitch* I wonder if one of his walking-sticks would last 60 years ;) After climbing trees and being carried by eagles, I doubt it. He didn't have one to light their way when the dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf escaped the goblins.





sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


Child of Manwe
Rivendell


Sep 8 2008, 5:35pm

Post #3 of 141 (340 views)
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I never [In reply to] Can't Post

I never noticed the difference... BlushPirate What a unobservant dummy I am. Thanks for getting me straight gramma! Smile

"Fear, Fire, Foes...Awake! Awake!"

"Ash nazg durzag, ash nazg grimbaultuk..."

ringwraiths27


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 8 2008, 6:41pm

Post #4 of 141 (311 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Well in the Story Gandalf's staff is broken at The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum, and he never lost it in the first place to Saruman.

In the Movie, it never really explains it.


weaver
Half-elven

Sep 8 2008, 11:59pm

Post #5 of 141 (306 views)
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not to worry, that's what those Geeky Observation Lists are for... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gramma compiled the Geeky Observation Lists for each film, based on things many different folks noticed, so she knows all kinds of things like this...

Have you seen Lossefalme's GOLD posts? She posts them on Thursdays, when she can do it. She's doing a scene by scene illustrated posting for all the things that gramma has on those geeky lists. I love that feature here, as I am continually amazed at the details, like the different staffs for Gandalf, that many more sharp eyed folks than me notice in the films. So, see, you are not alone!

Weaver



Magpie
Immortal


Sep 9 2008, 12:18am

Post #6 of 141 (299 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't his white staff get broken by the Witch King... and then he has another one just like it at the Grey Havens?

This stuff doesn't bother me too much. We've had a spate of posts lately at imdb wanting to know where they are coming from and wanting a really specific answer. My answer was, the man is thousands of years old. One can assume he's gone through a few staves in this lifetime in Middle-earth. He got these where he got those.

Another answer is Staves-R-Us.



magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 9 2008, 3:36am

Post #7 of 141 (279 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"Doesn't his white staff get broken by the Witch King... and then he has another one just like it at the Grey Havens?

This stuff doesn't bother me too much. We've had a spate of posts lately at imdb wanting to know where they are coming from and wanting a really specific answer. My answer was, the man is thousands of years old. One can assume he's gone through a few staves in this lifetime in Middle-earth. He got these where he got those. " He has a new staff at the Grey Havens, which is years after his staff was broken by the Witch King, but in the first one he has the same staff the entire time as Gandalf The Grey.



Child of Manwe
Rivendell


Sep 9 2008, 12:38pm

Post #8 of 141 (305 views)
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Okay...I was just wondering... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Fear, Fire, Foes...Awake! Awake!"

"Ash nazg durzag, ash nazg grimbaultuk..."

ringwraiths27


Warden Of Halifirien
Registered User


Sep 9 2008, 1:42pm

Post #9 of 141 (294 views)
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The Ceiling??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Another thing regarding the bit when Gandalf get thrown on the roof. Saruman shoots him up into the air, but how does he actually get onto the roof. There's no trap door I can see... Does he go through a window and then round onto the roof. Or did Saruman's magic make it possible for him to actually pass through the ceiling???

The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.


Child of Manwe
Rivendell


Sep 9 2008, 2:01pm

Post #10 of 141 (264 views)
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I have often wondered that myself... [In reply to] Can't Post

Though I wonder if Saruman lifted Gandalf to the ceiling and let him drop..."You have elected the way of PAIN!"

There also seems to be a time lapse between then and when he is on the roof. Almost all the trees were felled and the pits dug around Orthanc. Gandalf also certainly looks a little worse for the wear. Maybe Saruman tortured Gandalf to try and convince him to 'join the Dark Side'?

"Fear, Fire, Foes...Awake! Awake!"

"Ash nazg durzag, ash nazg grimbaultuk..."

ringwraiths27


weaver
Half-elven

Sep 9 2008, 3:28pm

Post #11 of 141 (255 views)
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Perhaps Saruman got tired of climbing all those stairs... [In reply to] Can't Post

..and he had an elevator installed. The doors are on the ceiling though...which works for wizards, I guess...

If you watch the National Geographic special, you can see the up and down arrow buttons and the emergency telephone...but they edited them out before FOTR was released, once fans noticed it on the Internet...

WinkWinkWink

Weaver



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 1:40am

Post #12 of 141 (267 views)
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Here's a comparison of [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf’s staves









sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 4:15am

Post #13 of 141 (249 views)
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He only has three [In reply to] Can't Post

He only has three different staffs in The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy.

He has one as Gandalf The Grey, the second when he first becomes Gandalf The White, and the last right before he heads to the Grey Havens.


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 10 2008, 4:50am

Post #14 of 141 (244 views)
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He has two as Gandalf the Grey [In reply to] Can't Post

Shots of the staves before his encounter with Saruman and after show different staves.

You can browse through this site to find close ups.

http://www.framecaplib.com/lotrlib.htm

Believe me, this subject has come up at another site and I dug around a collected quite a few pictures. I'm not going to do that again but they are different.

On the other hand, I can't see any difference between the staff before the Witch King and after. But I haven't gone to look closely at them either. What difference do you see between the two 'white' staves? Or are you just saying they must be two different staves because we know one was destroyed?



magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 4:53am

Post #15 of 141 (248 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

No, he doesn't. He only has one. Read the books. He's a wizard, figure out why they look different.

It's obvious the one he had before and after the Witch King is different, because his second one was broken by the Witch King.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Sep 10 2008, 5:04am

Post #16 of 141 (247 views)
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What has the book to do with that? [In reply to] Can't Post

We're talking about the movies, don't we?


Quote
It's obvious the one he had before and after the Witch King is different, because his second one was broken by the Witch King.

The same goes for before and after his imprisonment at Orthanc. We know he didn't have it when Gwaihir rescued him, so it's different.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 5:09am

Post #17 of 141 (248 views)
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Everything [In reply to] Can't Post

It has everything to do with it. Gandalf is never seen getting a new staff, and we never see his old one getting broken. The Movie is based on the book, and Jackson knows that he never got a new staff around that time, and so he didn't give him one. There would be no reason for him to.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Sep 10 2008, 5:19am

Post #18 of 141 (244 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

you can't use the book as a proof for details in the movies, IMO. The books aren't taken word-to-word to the screen, but are *adaptions*, after all. There are enough dissimilarities, if you think about it. There were never elves in Helm's Deep, to pick only one example, and still, PJ filmed them there.

And frankly, to put that down on wizardry alone smells rather like Harry Potter to me. What did Gandalf after Orthanc - Accio staff?

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 5:24am

Post #19 of 141 (246 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, and that's why I mentioned that there would be no reason for Jackson to give Gandalf a new staff. He had a good reason for the other things he did that didn't follow the exact and real Story. There was/is no evidence to suggest that Gandalf lost his first staff for good, and that he got a new one. Showing pictures isn't evidence, considering the fact that he's a wizard. He easily could have made it the way it was in Moria so he could use a light. You have to remember he is a part of the Valar (even if it is minor, you still have to have incredible power to be any part of it at all).


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Sep 10 2008, 5:52am

Post #20 of 141 (240 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

He's not a Vala, but only a Maia, and had to give up most of his power as he came to Middle-earth.

Anyway, if the pictures aren't any evidence to you, but things that aren't mentioned in the book are a proof for something in the movie, then any argument is useless. We'll have to agree to disagree then. I'll leave you happily to your own opinions now.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 6:11am

Post #21 of 141 (239 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Maia are lesser Ainur, which are the Valar, hence why I said minor.

They aren't my opinions. They are facts, and they aren't mine. They would have been facts even if I too didn't agree with them. The only thing is I do agree with them. I prefer to go by the facts than things that some fans just make up.

This argument is useless if you can not comprehend that Gandalf is a Wizard, a lesser being of the Valar, that has incredible power/magic.

Samwise wasn't kidding when he asked him to not turn him into a frog, or anything unnatural.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 10 2008, 7:19am

Post #22 of 141 (236 views)
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Not quite. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Valar and Maiar are distinct classes of Ainur. There are only 14 Valar. The Maiar are "their servants and helpers". Gandalf was a Maia of Manwe and Varda, and also spent time with Nienna.

The Istari (wizards) were sent to Middle-earth as old men, with their powers veiled and limited by intent, because their job was to assist and encourage the free peoples to resist Sauron, not to rule them or directly challenge Sauron themselves. Gandalf called himself the enemy of Sauron, but he never sought to challenge him directly. That wasn't his task.

Tolkien has some very distinct ideas about power and magic and how they are to be used, and who is allowed to use them. Some kinds and uses of power are absolutely forbidden. Anyone who tries to cross those lines falls under the influence of evil. Saruman, the Nine, and Wormtongue are a few examples. This is also the point of the Test of Galadriel.

Wizards in Middle-earth are not the spell-casters popular in most fantasy these days. In fact, it's been often observed here on TORN that there are remarkably few instances of magic use by the Istari. Gandalf's fireworks are the most notable example of "nonessential" magic, and probably indicate the use of Narya (as do the fire lighting on Caradhras and the flaming pine cones). Gandalf's power/magic is generally used on behalf of others rather than his own convenience.

I always took the comment about turning Sam into a frog as an example of the incorrect notions that other peoples had about the Istari, when in reality they knew very little about them. It was Men who called them wizards, and only the Elves had any notion where they came from or why. Lots of stories and rumors got started that weren't true. But I wouldn't put it past the Witch-king to have tried something along those lines!

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 7:32am

Post #23 of 141 (240 views)
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Very much so actually [In reply to] Can't Post

"So the Maiar are at the same time lesser Valar and the helpers of the higher Valar."

So like I said, they are lesser members of the Valar.

"The Istari (wizards) were sent to Middle-earth as old men, with their powers veiled and limited by intent, because their job was to assist and encourage the free peoples to resist Sauron, not to rule them or directly challenge Sauron themselves. Gandalf called himself the enemy of Sauron, but he never sought to challenge him directly. That wasn't his task."

You aren't telling me anything in this little part that I didn't already know.

"Tolkien has some very distinct ideas about power and magic and how they are to be used, and who is allowed to use them. Some kinds and uses of power are absolutely forbidden. Anyone who tries to cross those lines falls under the influence of evil. Saruman, the Nine, and Wormtongue are a few examples. This is also the point of the Test of Galadriel."

Again, stuff I already knew. What does that have to do with my point? Tolkien didn't want Gandalf to have the power to change the look of his staff for good purpose that doesn't involve challenging Sauron directly? That's wrong/incorrect.

"Wizards in Middle-earth are not the spell-casters popular in most fantasy these days. In fact, it's been often observed here on TORN that there are remarkably few instances of magic use by the Istari. Gandalf's fireworks are the most notable example of "nonessential" magic, and probably indicate the use of Narya (as do the fire lighting on Caradhras and the flaming pine cones). Gandalf's power/magic is generally used on behalf of others rather than his own convenience."

When did I ever imply that he changed the look of his staff for his convenience only? He did it for the convenience of the Fellowship, especially the likes of the Hobbits, who had no experience of this type of travel that they were experiencing.

The thing about Sam was a bit sarcastic, but at the same time my point was Gandalf can do a lot with magic, that doesn't involve directly challenging Sauron, or abusing the reduced power he was given by the higher Valar, including changing the look of his staff.

Now, in the Story this obviously didn't happen at all. But there is more evidence to suggest that in the Movie he could have just changed the look of his staff, given that he is a Wizard of great (though limited while on Earth) power, than there is to suggest that he somehow got a new staff out of thin air.


(This post was edited by Legolas123 on Sep 10 2008, 7:34am)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 10 2008, 7:42am

Post #24 of 141 (239 views)
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Um... [In reply to] Can't Post

You missed my point. Both Valar and Maiar are kinds of Ainur. Maiar are not lesser Valar. They are lesser Ainur. Valar only applies to the 14 ruling Ainur.

Regarding the staff - where is there any indication that the Istari had the ability to change the shape of a physical object? That's a leap I just don't see in either book or movie. It seems more reasonable to me that any staff replacements/changes took place in Rivendell and Lothlorien. I'm sure the Elves would be quite helpful in matters of staff manufacture.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 10 2008, 8:05am

Post #25 of 141 (259 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

On the contrary, you missed mine. To be blunt, you don't fully know what you are talking about. The Maiar are simply a lesser Valar, which is another term for the Ainur.

There are not only 14 members of the Valar. There are only 14 Lords and Queens of the Valar. Other members are considered the lesser Valar.

"Regarding the staff - where is there any indication that the Istari had the ability to change the shape of a physical object? That's a leap I just don't see in either book or movie. It seems more reasonable to me that any staff replacements/changes took place in Rivendell and Lothlorien. I'm sure the Elves would be quite helpful in matters of staff manufacture."

There is more evidence to suggest the former, simply because they are Wizards. They don't have to be the typical Wizards you see in other Movies, to be able to change the shape of things. He did things far more incredible with his staffs than changing the shape of it.

If it were as simple as getting Elves to make new staffs, wouldn't Saruman have stockpiled them just incase his staff was broken? He had to know that he would get cast out of the White Council eventually. Why didn't Gandalf have a new staff at the Black Gate? Or if you are going to say there wasn't enough time, why not at the end when Frodo wakes up?

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