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drogo
Lorien
Sep 6 2008, 1:08pm
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Minas Tirith 4: Bergil and the Prince of the Halflings
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Pippin, now know around the city as the Ernil i Pheriannath ("Prince of the Halflings") now parts from Beregond and goes to find his young son Bergil. Bergil, amazed to learn that Pippin is 29 (old to him, but still under the age of adulthood for hobbits), becomes Pippin's closest companion since he parted from Merry. The mood becomes somber, though, when the companies of men of the Outlands arrive--fewer than had been expected. As the red sunset hits Minas Tirith, Pippin and Bergil part, and when he returns to his lodging, Gandalf gives him his orders from Denethor and add, "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn." 1. How effective is the change of mood from the meeting of Bergil and Pippin to the end of the chapter? Why does Tolkien contrast the mood so sharply? 2. What does Pippin's "title" (and their impressions of halfling warriors) tell us about how the people of Minas Tirith view him and other hobbits? How does Pippin handle this "honor"? 3. What are your overall impressions of Minas Tirith and its people after seeing both the ruler and two of its "ordinary" citizens? How do the men of Gondor compare to those of Rohan, or even of Bree, in the way they greet strangers, especially the hobbits? 4. Despite its grandeur and might, we see signs of decay and neglect in the mostly empty city. What does the look of the city tell us about what has happened to the great culture of the Numenoreans? What clues do we get about its layout that will later be pivotal during the siege? Thank you for a good week, and please go ahead and post any additional thoughts or questions you might have about this chapter.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Sep 6 2008, 3:06pm
Post #2 of 17
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A Shire halfling in Steward Denethor's court
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1. How effective is the change of mood from the meeting of Bergil and Pippin to the end of the chapter? Why does Tolkien contrast the mood so sharply? We've seen this contrast earlier in this chapter, with Pippin having a pleasant outdoor chat with Beregond, when the mood is interrupted by a Nazgūl's psychological attack. But I think the second mood change was not so sharp: we have the joy of Pippin with a new friend, then the mood becomes downhearted with the arrival of too few defenders ("So ends a fair day in wrath"), the dark night ("Not a star pricked the sky"), then "a strange gloom" came on him, and an "uneasy sleep". So we too are sunk into a gloom, and ripe for the despair of "There will be no dawn". 2. What does Pippin's "title" (and their impressions of halfling warriors) tell us about how the people of Minas Tirith view him and other hobbits? How does Pippin handle this "honor"? There are at least three factors at work here: the civility of the Gondorian guard (ever notice how troops are trained in courtesy?), the formal speech of those people versus the familiar speech of Hobbits, and their hope that he's got a few thousand of his kind waiting in the wings to come to their defence! As for Pippin, he's basking in his new status - dispelling the myths, of course, but delighted at the audience "[hanging] on his words and stories"! 3. What are your overall impressions of Minas Tirith and its people after seeing both the ruler and two of its "ordinary" citizens? How do the men of Gondor compare to those of Rohan, or even of Bree, in the way they greet strangers, especially the hobbits? Well, we still haven't seen any of the "ordinary" citizens of Minas Tirith, only its trained soldiers and some children! But overall, it seems as if places treat "big" strangers with suspicion, but are fascinated by these "child-sized" strangers. 4. Despite its grandeur and might, we see signs of decay and neglect in the mostly empty city. What does the look of the city tell us about what has happened to the great culture of the Numenoreans? What clues do we get about its layout that will later be pivotal during the siege? It's hard to get the incentive to keep up a property when you live in constant fear of your neighbor! But I'll let others discuss the city layout and strategies. We know that one cannot go in a straight shot through the levels; but each level is broad with many streets and turnings, enough so that it's a task for Pippin to find the wandering Merry. And each level would be defensible in its own right. Thanks for the tour, drogo, and now I know more about medieval plumbing than I think I wanted to know!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 6 2008, 9:18pm
Post #3 of 17
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1. How effective is the change of mood from the meeting of Bergil and Pippin to the end of the chapter? Why does Tolkien contrast the mood so sharply? The change is a good reflection of how quickly situations in (real) life can change. Can you imagine Tolkien experiencing something like this during the war? One minute, he is engaged in meeting someone new (or getting reacquainted with an old buddy) then a critical situation is forming quickly. Glad we get to *see* Pippin enjoying a nice moment in the midst of it all. 2. What does Pippin's "title" (and their impressions of halfling warriors) tell us about how the people of Minas Tirith view him and other hobbits? How does Pippin handle this "honor"? Is it possible that the people of MT make some assumptions/apply a bit of stereotyping here? Was Pippin given the title only because he traveled with Boromir, came in the company of Gandalf and then spent some time with the Steward? Pippin doen't seem overly effected by the honor. 3. What are your overall impressions of Minas Tirith and its people after seeing both the ruler and two of its "ordinary" citizens? How do the men of Gondor compare to those of Rohan, or even of Bree, in the way they greet strangers, especially the hobbits? Tense, dry, and rigid at first glance although Beregond and his son bring in some sense of easygoing, compassion, and gentleness. The hobbits seem to be greeted with *wonder* in these places, less so in Bree. 4. Despite its grandeur and might, we see signs of decay and neglect in the mostly empty city. What does the look of the city tell us about what has happened to the great culture of the Numenoreans? What clues do we get about its layout that will later be pivotal during the siege? I didn't get a good *visual* of the physical decay and neglect but the silence of this fairly unoccupied place made an impact. As far as the layout goes, what stood out most was the "great paved space into which all ways to Minas Tirith ran." Thank you for a good week.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 7 2008, 7:20am
Post #4 of 17
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1. How effective is the change of mood from the meeting of Bergil and Pippin to the end of the chapter? Why does Tolkien contrast the mood so sharply? Bergil and Pippin were having a good time, until they were reminded of the real situation, which is desperate in the extreme. Tolkien effectively lulled us into enjoying the outing with "the lads", and then yanked us forcibly back into the story. Whiplash. Very effective. 2. What does Pippin's "title" (and their impressions of halfling warriors) tell us about how the people of Minas Tirith view him and other hobbits? How does Pippin handle this "honor"? Despite Pippin's modesty, is this title inappropriate? The Shire doesn't have titled royalty, but Pippin is certainly an upper-class Hobbit. As batik notes, he traveled with Boromir, came in the company of Gandalf and then spent some time with the Steward. Sounds like a VIP to me, and this is apparently how Gondor addresses VIPs. 3. What are your overall impressions of Minas Tirith and its people after seeing both the ruler and two of its "ordinary" citizens? How do the men of Gondor compare to those of Rohan, or even of Bree, in the way they greet strangers, especially the hobbits? Not a fair question. We're seeing MT under very abnormal circumstances. The city is preparing to fight for its life. All the women, children, and elderly folk have been evacuated, along with (presumably) most of their valuable possessions, at least those that are portable. And the remnant of the population is hunkering down in expectation of a massive onslaught. Bergil's youth enabled him to put this stress aside for a time. The citizens of Bree have some concerns about foreigners, but nothing like this stress. And Rohan, though on a war footing, was mainly dealing with skirmishes in the westfold prior to the massive assault on Helm's Deep. 4. Despite its grandeur and might, we see signs of decay and neglect in the mostly empty city. What does the look of the city tell us about what has happened to the great culture of the Numenoreans? What clues do we get about its layout that will later be pivotal during the siege? If you are packing off your family and think it's likely you'll never see them again, you're not going to pay much attention to watering the plants and mowing the grass, or whatever chores you'd do in more normal times. Similarly, the government has been pouring its energy into defensive measures (e.g. stocking stones for the trebuchets) and neglecting ordinary infrastructure. Can you blame them? For some years now, the citizens of MT have been conscious that they're fighting a losing war against an overpowering enemy. They are pouring what energies they have into survival and defense. Think of the Jews at Masada. __________ Thanks, drogo, for a good week. One final thought: Where do we next see Bergil?
Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08 Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 7 2008, 12:14pm
Post #5 of 17
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One final thought: Where do we next see Bergil? In 'The Houses of Healing', it is him who finds Pippin and Merry (while he is running errands for the Healers), and brings Gandalf to them; later, he brings Aragorn the old athelas leaves, and stays with his father by Faramir's sickbed until he awakens. In 'The Black Gate Opens' he escorts Merry to the Gate, to see the Captains of the West and their army depart (with Beregond and Pippin in it). Without checking the book, I'm not sure if he appears in 'The Siege of Gondor' too. Pippin has a scene with Beregond on the Wall, but I'm not sure Beregil also appears; I'm pretty sure he's mentioned, though (ask NEB - it's his chapter).
"Don't believe what strangers say of themselves!" - Pippin
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 7 2008, 5:08pm
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He's not mentioned in "The Siege".
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You've found all the references to Bergil. Another son of Beregond, Borlas, who is possibly not born at this time, is one of the two characters appearing in Tolkien's scrap of a sequel, "The New Shadow". He is an old man, more than 120 years after the War of the Ring.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Sep. 1-7 for "Minas Tirith". +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 7 2008, 5:34pm
Post #7 of 17
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Finally Pippin's not the baby of the story any more
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Trying to figure out why Tolkien chose to introduce a child character here, it struck me that it's a way to show Pippin from a new perspective, as a serious adult rather than a foolish adolescent. Compared to Bergil's childish greeting to Pippin, Pippin's reply sounds mature, showing evidence of a much greater understanding of the world than he used to have. Pippin may be small, but he's an adult, as Bergil and his friends soon find out when Pippin is able to get them into places where they need adult accompaniment. This introduction of a child character not only works well plot-wise, since only a child would have the leisure to spend this kind of time with Pippin, but it also sets off Pippin's own growing maturity.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 7 2008, 6:33pm
Post #8 of 17
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Bergil is a very useful character, beyond this charming introduction. By letting him help rescue Merry, he allows the isolation of Merry and Pippin to be far more poignant than if Pippin had been able to handle the situation alone. And it's wonderful that he was able to comfort Merry a little as he sees almost everyone he loves ride out to almost certain defeat.
Danielle and Tiger, 8/31/08 Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 8 2008, 6:59pm
Post #9 of 17
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Is there enough action in this chapter?
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Is there any other chapter with as little plot as this one, which is the third longest in the whole book?
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 9 2008, 2:50am
Post #10 of 17
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...Aragorn wrestling with Sauron brain-to-brain by that which was believed to have turned Saruman evil, then staggering back from the experience so wild-eyed that some suspect that he has gone mad, then making a harrowing journey into the Land of the Dead that has brave Gimli crawling on the ground with horror, and then rousing an army of ghosts--and you ask if this chapter has enough action??? It has enough going on to wake the dead!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 9 2008, 3:34am
Post #11 of 17
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that would be the next chapter. In this one, Pippin arrives at Minas Tirith and learns a little bit about the city.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 9 2008, 4:19am
Post #12 of 17
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new place, new faces, and pieces on the chess baord
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After the previous chapter this was nicely placed within the story. Now we know more about where Faramir comes from; Gandalf comes face to face with a "trouble maker" (or a troubled Man); Pippin runs hither and yon; we get a glimpse at the people of the outlying lands; and we get to know a little more about the folks in Gondor. Not a huge amount of action but Shadow appreciated that, no doubt.
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 9 2008, 5:14am
Post #13 of 17
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I for one have never missed it
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We get to know new people and a new place, even get a glimpse of children, and focus ourselves before the coming chapters. Unlike 'The Council of Elrond' we do not spend time hearing of people we will immediately forget and hear of later (Faramir, Cirdan, a hint at Wormtongue), nor hover around a decision which Gandalf indicated twelve chapters ago was the only option; and unlike 'Treebeard' we do not spend paged of rambling about the history of forests, or reading poetry in languages we do not know. Nothing against the abovementioned chapters, of course; but I was never one to crave for 'action', and if all the book was 'The Bridge of Khazad-dum' 'Helm's Deep' and 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields' all over again, I wouldn't have returned to it after the age of fourteen, save for perhaps a nostalgic glance, like 'Treasure Island' - and LotR i far too long for even that.
"No man would consider such a journey wasted" - Aragorn
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 9 2008, 8:32am
Post #14 of 17
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It's the deep breath before the plunge. //
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...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Sep 9 2008, 7:10pm
Post #15 of 17
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I'm sorry! I thought I was on the "The Passing of the Grey Company" thread! In this one I found the action well-replaced by the tension. The very absence of action, knowing that it looms ahead, becomes a sort of morbid thrill in itself, like standing next to a sleeping, hungry lion, and seeing a brass band set up just outside of the den, ready to launch any minute into a full-throated Souza march. The fact that nothing in particular happens at the moment, beyond the lion's twitching tail. does not impair the excitement one whit.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 5:03am
Post #17 of 17
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And again, thanks for leading this discussion, drogo. //
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