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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Aug 29 2008, 6:59pm
Post #1 of 21
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The Choices of Master Samwise, VII: A Private Conversation
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PART VII: A Private Conversation (Friday afternoon)
Thank you for continuing to follow the discussion on this Fiesta Friday, as we continue to eavesdrop on the orcs.
Sam sees the torches disappear, hears a rumbling noise, and encounters a "bump". He discovers that the orcs went down the passageway that he and Frodo earlier found blocked with a great stone, and it’s still blocked as far as he can tell. He hears their voices on the other side, but cannot figure out how to get in.
A. Is the "bump" something he goes over? Goes around? Something he hears? A general jolt of the tunnel? What? How do you imagine that the orcs actually get through? What sort of engineering or whatever is involved?
Sam (still experiencing ring-enhanced auditory powers) hears most of the orcs go on deeper into the tunnel, but also hears Shagrat and Gorbag stop near the barrier to chat. He waits, with the hope that Gorbag will soon leave to return to Minas Morgul, and that might give him an opportunity to slip in invisibly.
Shagrat and Gorbag trade gripes as to which is worse–dealing with Nazgul or Shelob. We already know the horrors of Shelob, so Tolkien gives Gorbag the most lines:
"No, I don’t know. The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes ‘em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so it’s no use grumbling. I tell you, it’s no game serving down in the city."
B. Any guesses as to the part of the conversation that Sam missed, which Gorbag answered with "I don’t know"? How do you think the messages go through so fast between Minas Morgul and Lugburz?
C. What does Gorbag mean when he says that the Nazgul would "skin the body off of" someone, "and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." And how might Gorbag know what it is like (cold, dark) to experience this? Why are the Nazgul Sauron’s favorites "nowadays"? Who might have been his favorites before, and what has changed?
D. Which would you rather deal with–Nazgul or Shelob?
Gorbag wishes to go where there are no Nazgul, and hopes that after the war this might become possible. Shagrat echoes propaganda saying that the war is going well, which Gorbag receives skeptically, and yet hopes that if it does go well, "there would be a a lot more room." He then invites Shagrat to join him in slipping off to "set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." Which Shagrat calls "Like old times."
E. Might this qualify as friendship, even affection between these two old warriors? Or is it more the sort of self-serving deal that rivals might enter into temporarily, as in "Survivor" or "Big Brother"? Do they know, themselves? At the end of the trilogy, many orcs seemed to fall to pieces without Sauron’s leadership. How do you reconcile this with Shagrat and Gorbag’s speculation on what they might do on their own without "big bosses"? Are they typical of orcs in general? Or of those orcs with enough initiative to hold commands? Do they have free will? Do they merely think that they have free will? Do some orcs have more free will than others? Do they have free will only so long as Sauron is alive, even if not in command? Does Sauron being reduced to an impotent spirit gnawing itself in the dark count as alive? Or would that be enough for some orcs though not others? Or do you know of still other options that I haven’t thought of?
F. What old times does Shagrat refer to? What changed?
Gorbag expresses his doubts in Sauron’s leadership, maintaining that "something has slipped." Then he asks when Shagrat was sent out. Not only does Shagrat tell him "About an hour ago," but also, without being asked, what his orders were (something, you will recall, he insolently refused to tell Gorbag in front of the other orcs.) "Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on the Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs." Gorbag concurs that the Silent Watchers of Minas Morgul were uneasy two days before–yet nobody sent them out for another day, nor did the Nazgul send any message to Sauron, due to the "Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgul going of to the war, and all that." Even then they couldn’t get Sauron to pay attention for quite some time. Shagrat excuses Sauron as having "big things" to occupy his time going in in the west, but Gorbag doesn’t buy it. He also insults Shagrat’s supervision of the Stairs.
(Insertion of relevant personal experience–when I was a temp, half of my jobs involved stepping in with an extra pair of hands to help companies in trouble. Inevitably in these cases, the rank and file knew, from first-hand observation, precisely which policies had screwed the company up, but their higher-ups considered it beneath them to ask the opinions of any employees below a certain level, and therefore often didn’t have a clue, trying endlessly to fix the wrong things right up till bankruptcy.)
G. Any theories as to why Gorbag seems more open to subversive thoughts? What’s got Sauron so distracted right now? If these two could tell Sauron what they think might have been mistakes in his policy, what might they say? And what might have changed if Sauron had listened to them?
In his defense, Shagrat says that his forces knew that "funny things" went on–"lights and shouting and all". But they also saw Shelob together with her "Sneak", and figured that Shelob would take care of things. He then goes on to describe the Sneak as obviously Gollum, and fills in some missing bits of Gollum’s history: That they had had orders to let him escape, that he had returned a couple of times since but the orcs always left him alone, and that he has a relationship with Shelob. Shagrat speculates that Gollum must not be good to eat.
H. What do you make of Gollum’s occasional visits? Do you think Gollum ever suspects that he was allowed to escape?
Shagrat goes on to tease Gorbag about his guardianship, for not noticing that Gollum had slipped up to visit Shelob the day before all the fuss began. The orcs left well enough alone until they got orders to patrol, figuring that Gollum had brought Shelob something to hunt, and feeling confident that nothing could get by her. Gorbag retorts that something did get by her. Somebody sheared right through her webs, and Frodo turned up on the wrong side of her hole, having passed safely through. When Shagrat says she got him in the end, Gorbag points out that if there had only been one, she’d have hauled Frodo off to her larder by now. (Sam pays more attention at this point.) Gorbag then points out that somebody cut the cords on Frodo, somebody wounded Shelob and drove her off, and that somebody is still at large. That somebody, Gorbag says, is the most dangerous person to show up since the "great Siege". He speculates that it might be a well-armed elf-warrior (which amuses Sam.)
I. Gorbag seems to have a quicker grasp of logic than Shagrat. Do you think that he is more intelligent, or simply more inclined to apply critical thinking where he’s supposed to simply follow orders? What might have affected their differing mental habits?
Shagrat accuses Gorbag of pessimism, and says that there might be other ways to interpret the evidence (without offering any alternative explanations.) He maintains that he shall deal with one thing at a time; they might gain more information after examining Frodo. Gorbag dismisses Frodo’s value, since the elf hadn’t performed a proper funeral "a regular elvish trick."
I. What does this say about Shagrat’s way of thinking and functioning? Can you extrapolate a larger picture as to what orcs think about elvish morality? Is this solely based on propaganda, or might there also be an element of observation, whether correctly or incorrectly interpreted? Any speculation on orkish funerary customs? Apparently they do not see anything fitting about simply leaving a body lying around.
Shagrat says it’s time to examine the prisoner. Gorbag wants in on "the game" along with his own troops, because he spotted Frodo first. Shagrat recites the rules about stripping prisoners, giving a full description of everything found upon them, and keeping the prisoner "safe and intact" until Sauron either sends for him or comes himself, upon pain of death for the entire regiment for any violation.
J. Keeping in mind that Gorbag still believes Frodo to be dead, what sort of game might he be talking about? Why might Sauron come in person for a prisoner detained at Cirith Ungol?
Next, the revelation!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 30 2008, 5:45am
Post #3 of 21
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And quite accurate!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 30 2008, 6:07am
Post #4 of 21
(1983 views)
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Orcs aren't as inhuman as they at first seem.
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A. Is the "bump" something he goes over? Goes around? Something he hears? A general jolt of the tunnel? What? How do you imagine that the orcs actually get through? What sort of engineering or whatever is involved?
I've always imagined it as the rock slab moving back into place.
B. Any guesses as to the part of the conversation that Sam missed, which Gorbag answered with "I don’t know"? How do you think the messages go through so fast between Minas Morgul and Lugburz?
The question is how the Nazgul seem to know what Sauron wants too quickly for a messenger to be able to tell them.
C. What does Gorbag mean when he says that the Nazgul would "skin the body off of" someone, "and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." And how might Gorbag know what it is like (cold, dark) to experience this? Why are the Nazgul Sauron’s favorites "nowadays"? Who might have been his favorites before, and what has changed?
Nazgul can look right at your spirit - can only look right at your spirit, and I think that's what this is referring to. As for what has changed, the Nazgul returned to Mordor only relatively recently, I think, or at least, they haven't been in command until fairly recently.
D. Which would you rather deal with–Nazgul or Shelob?
That depends on what the Nazgul do to their minions. Shelob eats them, but she only eats one at a time. Nazgul might kill more than one at a time, or on the other hand they may not kill any, since it would mean having fewer orcs to get tasks done with - but nonetheless a Nazgul can still scare the crap out of them.
E. Might this qualify as friendship, even affection between these two old warriors? Or is it more the sort of self-serving deal that rivals might enter into temporarily, as in "Survivor" or "Big Brother"? Do they know, themselves? At the end of the trilogy, many orcs seemed to fall to pieces without Sauron’s leadership. How do you reconcile this with Shagrat and Gorbag’s speculation on what they might do on their own without "big bosses"? Are they typical of orcs in general? Or of those orcs with enough initiative to hold commands? Do they have free will? Do they merely think that they have free will? Do some orcs have more free will than others? Do they have free will only so long as Sauron is alive, even if not in command? Does Sauron being reduced to an impotent spirit gnawing itself in the dark count as alive? Or would that be enough for some orcs though not others? Or do you know of still other options that I haven’t thought of?
Yes, I think it's a sort of friendship. Shagrat and Gorbag are probably more intelligent than orcs on average, although not necessarily by much. Nonetheless, it does imply that the Orcs are not just evil and nothing else.
Of course, what happens in the next chapter (The Tower of Cirith Ungol) changes things, a little.
. What old times does Shagrat refer to? What changed?
Probably the time before 2941 when Sauron was still in Dol Guldor, and the Orcs ran Mordor mostly by themselves.
G. Any theories as to why Gorbag seems more open to subversive thoughts? What’s got Sauron so distracted right now? If these two could tell Sauron what they think might have been mistakes in his policy, what might they say? And what might have changed if Sauron had listened to them?
Orcs have different personalities; that's also clear.
As for Sauron, Sauron is distracted by Aragorn - we know this a few chapters hence. Shagrat and Gorbag probably think that Sauron should patrol his borders more, although obviously they incorrectly guess at the nature of the threat.
H. What do you make of Gollum’s occasional visits? Do you think Gollum ever suspects that he was allowed to escape?
Gollum surely knows that he was released from Barad-dûr. I can only imagine that Gollum was allowed to escape at least some of the time, but I'm not sure Gollum knows how often. Gollum surely knows that Sauron released him because Sauron thinks Gollum will lead him to the Ring, though. Why else would Sauron have released Gollum (given, in particular, that Gollum obviously realizes that Sauron wants the Ring...).
I. Gorbag seems to have a quicker grasp of logic than Shagrat. Do you think that he is more intelligent, or simply more inclined to apply critical thinking where he’s supposed to simply follow orders? What might have affected their differing mental habits?
Not sure - Shagrat is of course the one who wins the infighting in the tower. I think Shagrat may just be more loyal - even after all of the fighting, Shagrat did bring the mithril coat to "Lugburz", as evinced by the Mouth of Sauron showing up later.
I. What does this say about Shagrat’s way of thinking and functioning? Can you extrapolate a larger picture as to what orcs think about elvish morality? Is this solely based on propaganda, or might there also be an element of observation, whether correctly or incorrectly interpreted? Any speculation on orkish funerary customs? Apparently they do not see anything fitting about simply leaving a body lying around.
Not sure what to make of this - either (1) Shagrat and Gorbag actually do have a semblence of morality, at least a desire to bury the dead, or (2) they expect that their Elvish warrior also knows Frodo to be alive. Similarly, their beliefs about Elvish morality are certainly influenced by propaganda (Elves hate Orcs, which is of course true), but it's also possible that Sauron just doesn't understand morality at all. I opt for the former, if only because Sauron gave his emissary at the Black Gate Frodo's coat to present to Aragorn - suggesting that Sauron did expect Aragorn to feel guilt for Frodo.
As for Elvish behavior, the Elves have been in plenty of situations where burial was not an option for the fallen. If an elf's comrade has fallen against overwhelming odds, and anything except running away will mean certain death, then the elf will save his own skin.
J. Keeping in mind that Gorbag still believes Frodo to be dead, what sort of game might he be talking about? Why might Sauron come in person for a prisoner detained at Cirith Ungol?
Good question - it's almost as if Sauron suspects the Ring to try to come in through CIrith Ungol, doesn't he? And yet, we know that can't be the case, since Sauron does not imagine that the Wise intend to destroy the Ring, and apart from that, there is no reason to take the Ring into Mordor?
Good question. Not sure. Maybe Sauron is expecting Elvish spies. Maybe Galadriel is actually running a cover operation that Frodo and Sam aren't aware of.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 30 2008, 8:38pm
Post #5 of 21
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A. Is the "bump" something he goes over? Goes around? Something he hears? A general jolt of the tunnel? What? How do you imagine that the orcs actually get through? What sort of engineering or whatever is involved?
Reads like something he hears/feels the jolt of...the sound/weight of the great stone as its rolled/lifted?
B. Any guesses as to the part of the conversation that Sam missed, which Gorbag answered with "I don’t know"? How do you think the messages go through so fast between Minas Morgul and Lugburz?
"So, what's really going on?"
hmmm... is there a palantir missing?
C. What does Gorbag mean when he says that the Nazgul would "skin the body off of" someone, "and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." And how might Gorbag know what it is like (cold, dark) to experience this? Why are the Nazgul Sauron’s favorites "nowadays"? Who might have been his favorites before, and what has changed?
"skin the body off of"? what's that? do I really want to know?
The Nazgul would be more motivated by the thought of regaining "power" therefore more useful to Sauron. Orcs are just warm(?) bodies-replaceable.
D. Which would you rather deal with–Nazgul or Shelob?
Nazgul...only due to prior knowledge of their weakness.
E. Might this qualify as friendship, even affection between these two old warriors? Or is it more the sort of self-serving deal that rivals might enter into temporarily, as in "Survivor" or "Big Brother"? Do they know, themselves? At the end of the trilogy, many orcs seemed to fall to pieces without Sauron’s leadership. How do you reconcile this with Shagrat and Gorbag’s speculation on what they might do on their own without "big bosses"? Are they typical of orcs in general? Or of those orcs with enough initiative to hold commands? Do they have free will? Do they merely think that they have free will? Do some orcs have more free will than others? Do they have free will only so long as Sauron is alive, even if not in command? Does Sauron being reduced to an impotent spirit gnawing itself in the dark count as alive? Or would that be enough for some orcs though not others? Or do you know of still other options that I haven’t thought of?
Would need to know much more about the origin(s) of the Orcs to answer this one I suppose.
F. What old times does Shagrat refer to? What changed?
ditto here
G. Any theories as to why Gorbag seems more open to subversive thoughts? What’s got Sauron so distracted right now? If these two could tell Sauron what they think might have been mistakes in his policy, what might they say? And what might have changed if Sauron had listened to them?
Sauron has been distacted by the goings on to the West...Rohan preparing to ride to Gondor, Faramir's rescue by Gandalf, Aragorn making his way to Lebennin, battle at Lorien, Ents engaged in battle.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Aug 30 2008, 10:31pm
Post #6 of 21
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Things that go bump in the dark
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Fiesta's long past - but is a rainy Saturday okay? 
The "bump": Sam hears a rumbling, then comes the bump: the stone across the entrance to the tunnel the Orcs are using has just been rolled back across, and thumped into place. Interesting that he heard no rumbling when the stone door was opened, unless Tolkien intended the "rumbling noise" to encompass both its opening, a pause while the Orcs entered, and its closing.
And because of that sound, I'd say this door had no hinges, but instead had some type of hand-holds which allowed a couple strong Orcs to roll it to one side. Would be interesting to take a look at the condition of the floor of the tunnel there.
Any guesses as to the part of the conversation that Sam missed, which Gorbag answered with "I don’t know"? How do you think the messages go through so fast between Minas Morgul and Lugburz?
It seems as if Shagrat is wondering how Gorbag gets his information; neither of them know about the palantiri at Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul, which is how the "messages go through quicker than anything could fly".
Cold and dark: The Nazgûl seem to have a bit of their master's talent for interrogation: "Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." I imagine that Gorbag's witnessed this happen a few times.
Friendship between old warriors: These two sound more like Mafia bosses planning to set up in a new territory. Orc free will? Now there's a subject for an entire thread; in fact, how would one define the "free will" of a creature which is a "mockery" rather than a true "creation"?
What’s got Sauron so distracted right now? Let's see: this is March 13th, and Sauron's forces are currently overrunning the Pelennor. Seven days ago an upstart of Westernesse showed up in his palantir, and he's been intent on crumbling Minas Tirith ever since.
Do you think Gollum ever suspects that he was allowed to escape?
He's so paranoid and self-obsessed, that I don't think he's capable of the concept of "being allowed to" escape.
Games: You don't want to know what Orcs could do to a prisoner's body... As for Sauron coming for the prisoner himself, I think that's more of a threat that Shagrat is making; besides, how would Sauron travel there, and how could he travel there, in his current form (or non-form)?
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 30 2008, 11:37pm
Post #7 of 21
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Just a note on the last statement, yes Sauron absolutely could come for Frodo himself. Gollum, recall, has seen Sauron, and has seen the hand of Sauron that bears four fingers. I think we can assume that the rest of Sauron's manifestation includes a body, and that it is mobile.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 30 2008, 11:46pm
Post #8 of 21
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they are using palantir to pass messages?
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Aug 31 2008, 1:55am
Post #9 of 21
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The seven stones were originally kept at the Tower Hills (this one under the control of the Elves); Annúminas and Amon Sûl (Weathertop), whose stone was taken to Fornost when the tower was destroyed, and both of these perished with Arvedui in the North; Isengard; Minas Tirith; Osgiliath; and Minas Ithil (Minas Morgul).
The Osgiliath stone supposedly sank into Anduin when that city was destroyed, but I have an UUT (Utterly Unsupported Theory) that it was actually retrieved by Sauron, thus enabling faster-than-flight communication between him and his Nazgûl.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Aug 31 2008, 2:04am
Post #10 of 21
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I wondered if someone would pick up on this! Now, here's the question: how can Sauron both have some kind of physical body, and be "seen" as a lidless Eye? Is the Eye merely a psychological imprint of his evil nature, so that it does not really exist? Or is Sauron only "partly there" these days, that is, his body has never fully reconstructed itself?
What is the physical nature of a guy who fled as a spirit?
(And why does this remind me so much of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 31 2008, 4:45am
Post #11 of 21
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The only time in the book when any of the characters actually sees the Eye is when Frodo and Sam are climbing up Orodruin, and the mists concealing Barad-Dûr draw back for a moment and there is a brilliant red light in the upper tower. No more of a description is given. The other time when the Eye apparently manifests itself is when Frodo is looking in the Mirror of Galadriel, and then the Eye is described in some detail, but of course, Frodo is looking at it through the veil of the Mirror. Pippin also may have "seen" the Eye in the Palantír, but Pippin implies that when he looked into the stone, Sauron came after he saw it at first.
It's possible that the Eye is only a metaphor, despite that Frodo seemingly sees it in the Palantír, while everything else he sees is supposedly real. It's also possible that, despite no longer being able to appear in a fair form, Sauron can still appear in more than one possible terrifying form, one of a "dark lord" and the other of the Eye. A third possibility is that the Eye is not really Sauron himself at all, but a sorcerous creation of Sauron that can act at least in part independently of Sauron's more familiar material body.
I find it difficult to believe that Sauron himself is a burning Eye, if Gollum says he saw fingers - unless, of course, Gollum was being metaphorical, but by the same token the missing finger (four, not five) is a clear reference to the fact that the fifth finger was cut off by Isildur. Just by his age and having been so many places, including the dungeons of Barad-dûr, I would not be surprised if Gollum knows about Isildur, but if he does, he doesn't think about him much, and would not make such a poetic, metaphorical connection, if Sauron's hand is the metaphor and the Eye is not. If Gollum were inclined to think in those terms, I would imagine that he would agree that the Ring had to be destroyed himself, and would do everything he could to help Frodo, including, yes, leaping into the Fire intentionally at the end, Ring in hand.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 31 2008, 4:46am
Post #12 of 21
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They must be communicating via the Rings.
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Sauron does not personally hold the One Ring at this time, but it's plainly apparent that he can call the Nazgul around. For example, on the Field of Cormallen, Sauron calls the Nazgul back in a frantic race to Orodruin when Frodo puts on the Ring. I'm quite sure the Nazgul are not flying around with a Palantír.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 31 2008, 11:03am
Post #13 of 21
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Really, after dernwyn and Beren IV - what can I add?
A. Is the "bump" something he goes over? Goes around? Something he hears? A general jolt of the tunnel? What? How do you imagine that the orcs actually get through? What sort of engineering or whatever is involved?
I have always thought the bump is that doorway he bumps into.
B. Any guesses as to the part of the conversation that Sam missed, which Gorbag answered with "I don’t know"? How do you think the messages go through so fast between Minas Morgul and Lugburz?
No guesses; I don't know either.
Beren IV is right - the Nazgul got direct messages from Sauron somehow. And I recollect somewhere it is told the Nine Rings where in Sauron's possesion (and if not, he had no Ring to connect to them) - so it's not the Nine either.
Of course, they could have some "lessesr essays in the craft", or being undead, connect with the Necromancer in some other way.
C. What does Gorbag mean when he says that the Nazgul would "skin the body off of" someone, "and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." And how might Gorbag know what it is like (cold, dark) to experience this? Why are the Nazgul Sauron’s favorites "nowadays"? Who might have been his favorites before, and what has changed?
Here, I must thank dernwyn for quoting that passage. And I agree, Gorbag knows by participating in the interrogations - like many think Grishnakh knew of the Ring by participating in the interrogation of Gollum.
I suspect the orcs were Sauron's favourites in Dol Guldur, and possibly in the Second Age - definitely untill the Nazgul were utterly corrupted (I think that took some time), and probably later, two, when they were busy in far-away countries.
I also suspect the Nazgul had a fall out of favour after they bungled the hunt for the Ring, and let the Halfling get to Imladris of all places.
D. Which would you rather deal with–Nazgul or Shelob?
As a man - Shelob; as a woman - Nazgul (remember the prophecy!)
As an orc - well, you could deal with the Nazgul, and get to the right side of them; nobody but Gollum ever did that with Shelob (all right, maybe her miserable mates).
E. Might this qualify as friendship, even affection between these two old warriors? Or is it more the sort of self-serving deal that rivals might enter into temporarily, as in "Survivor" or "Big Brother"? Do they know, themselves?
I think it is a sort of friendship.
At the end of the trilogy, many orcs seemed to fall to pieces without Sauron’s leadership. How do you reconcile this with Shagrat and Gorbag’s speculation on what they might do on their own without "big bosses"?
'Big Bosses' mean the Nazgul, and other lieutenants. I think when they dream about 'the old times', they mean the time Sauron was around, without all kinds of upstart Men.
Are they typical of orcs in general? Or of those orcs with enough initiative to hold commands? Do they have free will? Do they merely think that they have free will? Do some orcs have more free will than others? Do they have free will only so long as Sauron is alive, even if not in command? Does Sauron being reduced to an impotent spirit gnawing itself in the dark count as alive? Or would that be enough for some orcs though not others? Or do you know of still other options that I haven’t thought of?
Well, the question of orcs' free will depends on the questions of the orcs' origins, and of free will in Arda in general (the embers of the last debate are still smouldering in the RR). See squire's discussion.
F. What old times does Shagrat refer to? What changed?
I think the times which Elves and Men call the Dark Years - the jolly golden days of the latter half of the Second Age, when Sauron overran Middle-Earth, except for the coasts (which he fought with the Numenoreans for the mastery of), and the North-westren corner, where Elves still were strong enough to stave him off.
G. Any theories as to why Gorbag seems more open to subversive thoughts?
He's left behind to mind the shop, when all his friends went to War.
What’s got Sauron so distracted right now?
As dernwyn pointed out, Aragorn.
If these two could tell Sauron what they think might have been mistakes in his policy, what might they say? And what might have changed if Sauron had listened to them?
What would have happened if pigs had wings?
And anyhow, I think Sauron would have listened to their criticism, and guessed they want some attention to themselves, and not to be forgotten. He probably would be right.
H. What do you make of Gollum’s occasional visits? Do you think Gollum ever suspects that he was allowed to escape?
In 'The Black Gate is Closed', Gollum vehemently denies the possibility he was allowed to escape, and is obstinate in claiming he did so by himself. And Frodo believes him - or at least, that he really thinks he managed to.
I. Gorbag seems to have a quicker grasp of logic than Shagrat. Do you think that he is more intelligent, or simply more inclined to apply critical thinking where he’s supposed to simply follow orders? What might have affected their differing mental habits?
Was it Beren IV who pointed out Shagrat won the fight? Well, I don't make out much of it - he probably had more men (orcs, actually) to support him.
But Shagrat seems to have climbed very high in the ranks - commanding a Pass is quite a promotion, higher than Gorbag got. What does that mean? That he was just a dumb, servile brute - or that he was actually quick-witted and trustworthy? If not for Grishnakh, I would go for the first option; as it is, I am not sure.
I. What does this say about Shagrat’s way of thinking and functioning? Can you extrapolate a larger picture as to what orcs think about elvish morality? Is this solely based on propaganda, or might there also be an element of observation, whether correctly or incorrectly interpreted? Any speculation on orkish funerary customs? Apparently they do not see anything fitting about simply leaving a body lying around.
As I haven't seen yet how you've dealt with old Ufthak, I'll answer that on the next thread.
Later in this chapter, Shagrat threatens Gorbag with the Pot (and remember Grishnakh's innuendo about the flesh Saruman feeds his troops with) - so I assume burial is important for orcs; it saves their bodies! I assume any orc who cared for his fellows, buried them; and those which didn't...
J. Keeping in mind that Gorbag still believes Frodo to be dead, what sort of game might he be talking about?
Like the trolls discussed in The Hobbit. But seriously, Gorbag might believe Frodo isn't dead yet - only that he had no chance of surviving the night. Shagrat tells him 'She has more than one kind of poison' - I suspect the poison used to still Ufthak, would have killed Frodo.
Why might Sauron come in person for a prisoner detained at Cirith Ungol?
A spy coming up the stairs? It could be one of Faramir's trusted agent, or Faramir himself.
Remember, Sauron even sent for Pippin.
And if the spy could tell him something of the new Ringbearer - the less who know, the better.
"You've been talking very clever, but there's a lot you don't know, though most other folk do" - Shagrat
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dernwyn
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Aug 31 2008, 5:34pm
Post #14 of 21
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Gollum is most definitely not a philosophically-minded creature, and would understand only the concrete ideas. So it makes sense for Sauron to have some kind of physical body.
"Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again" - I wonder what the "shadow" is like, in the in-between stage between shadow-ness and full body. And assuming that Sauron can form a basically humanoid body for himself, it is strange that he'd keep only four fingers on the one hand, unless he's the masochistic type who likes to torment himself with a reminder of his defeat and loss.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Aug 31 2008, 5:41pm
Post #15 of 21
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Sauron has no Ring, himself. It could be that enough of his own power went into the making of the Nine, that they provide a constant mental communication; but it could also be, that the Nazgûl are so fully under Sauron's control, that he is constantly "in their minds". His distress is their distress.
(BTW, not Cormallen, but Morannon .)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 31 2008, 6:06pm
Post #16 of 21
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That after the fall of Numenor, Sauron could never take a fair form again, only that of a dark and terrible lord?
I think the answer to your question depends on how we understand the combat on Orodruin.
Gandalf describes it thus in 'The Shadow of the Past':
It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westrenesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own. Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years, until his shadow took shape again in Mirkwood. If we picture it like the movies did, of Sauron victorius until Isildur cut his finger - it makes sense that he kept his body, and fled (why should he implode?), and the physical body was destroyed when Barad-dur fell - the second time Sauron was 'buried alive'. That's how I've read the books for years.
But if we read that he was defeated in the combat with the two kings, after which three slain bodies of three races were left in the field, and Isidur cut the Ring off a stricken Sauron - then we might read that only his spirit fled, and couldn't really take a phyical form again - hence the lidless eye (as he had to take a different form, and he lost the only humanoid form allowed him). In that case, the 'four fingers' are metaphorical, a simile which Gollum picked up from the orcs.
But that interpretation is difficult to reconcile with Shagrat's "or He comes Himself", so I suspect the first description is more 'correct' - in terms of more consistent with the rest of the book (and the hint in the Akallabeth).
"You've been talking very clever, but there's a lot you don't know, though most other folk do" - Shagrat
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Aug 31 2008, 6:31pm
Post #17 of 21
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But that interpretation is difficult to reconcile with Shagrat's "or He comes Himself"
The Nazgul have no physical "form" - they are empty and shapeless without their clothes and armour - so couldn't Sauron be in a similar condition? That would certainly make it possible for him to "come Himself", although in fact it seems that he never leaves his fortress. His "four fingers on the Black Hand" could be his mutilated glove, worn (I'd speculate) as a pledge to himself of ultimate revenge.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 31 2008, 9:05pm
Post #18 of 21
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Well, Sauron is still a Maia, so I envision that yes, over time, Sauron can take a physical form, that is, yes, humanoid. Certainly, none of the characters either friend or foe imply that Sauron is immobile. In fact, we know that not to be the case; he fled Dol Guldor somehow...
Ironically, when I first read the book (I was maybe eight years old at the time), the scene in which Aragorn et al were "negotiating" with the Mouth of Sauron, I did actually somehow envision Sauron himself being present - as an almost cartoonish giant eyeball, sitting on a black horse, behind his emissary.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Sep 1 2008, 1:26am
Post #19 of 21
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I like that idea: that Sauron's still got that four-fingered glove, and uses it for part of his "form".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 1 2008, 2:11am
Post #20 of 21
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Did Barad-dûr fall at the end of the Second Age?
[In reply to]
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I think that it was instead pulled down by the victorious alliance.
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 1 2008, 5:35am
Post #21 of 21
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At first I was puzzled, thinking you simply didn't understand me; then I re-read my original post, and it really doesn't make sense.
When I spoke of a second physical form being destroyed, I was considering the possibility that Sauron wasn't killed in the combat with Gil-galad and Elendil, and kept his physical form intact, while only his spirit was vanquished.
The two times his was physically destroyed (in that case) were at the fall of Numenor, and when Barad-dur fell at the end of the third age.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
"You've been talking very clever, but there's a lot you don't know, though most other folk do" - Shagrat
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