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Morthoron
Gondor
Aug 24 2008, 7:31pm
Post #76 of 157
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There were many elves who made their own choices (and exhibited free will) during the fateful kinslaying. In addition to Feanor and his sons attacking the Teleri, there were: Noldor choosing to fight with the Teleri against their kin, Noldor withholding the use of the sword but leaving Aman for Middle-earth, Noldor staying out of the fray altogether and remaining in Aman, and Noldor who harkened to the pronouncement of Mandos and returned before the imminent ban (like Finarfin). There were too many individual choices being made during that 'fateful' encounter to issue a blanket edict of preordination on the whole (that is, until Mandos proclaimed his 'Doom of the Noldor').
Regarding Mandos and free will, that he had foreknowledge of events (as when he uttered "Not the first" in regards to the murder of Finwe) implies that, although he had such prescience, he was not allowed to stop the Noldor (and Feanor in particular) from making their choice of action. Whether this was allowing fate to run its course, or if indeed free will took precedence over averting a disaster such as the Kinslaying is, I suppose, the crux of this whole debate.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 24 2008, 8:45pm
Post #77 of 157
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that if there is true fate for the Elves, it's only for some of them, incidentally, the ones that matter, like Fëanor. But really I don't even think that.
I think that the real question in a world like Middle Earth is whether characters have constrained, but not locked, will, i.e. you can choose A, B, or C, but you cannot choose D or E. Another recurring theme is commitment - once you choose to do something, you can't go back. An example with Fëanor and his sons might be their oath - before they swore that, they might have had the free will to avoid their fates, but once sworn, it was all over.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 24 2008, 9:54pm
Post #78 of 157
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I think we're at the edge of what can be meaningfully discussed in an online forum. So much work is needed just to establish terms! I apologize for being unclear. In this case, I was thinking of the literary importance of visualweasel's question -- Tolkien's fiction is story first, philosophy second. For instance, when Glorfindel says that the Elves have chosen, in acceding to the destruction of the One Ring, to sacrifice the beauty achieved through the power of the Three Rings, is the tale weakened if we think that this choice was foreordained?
Hmm... bossed, cost, lost, moss'd, paused, sauced, tossed, better, debtor, feather, fetter, get her, header, heather, leather, led her, letter, met her, net her, nether, pet her, setter, tether, weather, wetter... anyone got another clerihew?
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Morthoron
Gondor
Aug 24 2008, 11:19pm
Post #79 of 157
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In honor of Hostetter
Perhaps we should post better.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)
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Aelfwine
Rivendell
Aug 24 2008, 11:42pm
Post #80 of 157
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But please note that the first syllable of my last name rhymes with "ha" not with "hoe". (We linguists are sticklers for these things!)
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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 25 2008, 12:47am
Post #81 of 157
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Saving the discussion about predestination for another time:
Carl Hostetter:
For linguistics, there's never a better.
On Torn he discussed Elves and free will,
And it must not have been too bad, because he's here still.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
(This post was edited by Kimi on Aug 25 2008, 1:54am)
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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 25 2008, 1:42am
Post #83 of 157
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ack!!! Only I would mis-spell a word in a post about linguistics! Help, admins
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before Carl runs away screaming, can someone change guantlet to gauntlet? Thanks.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Aug 25 2008, 4:15am
Post #84 of 157
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But please note that the first syllable of my last name rhymes with "ha" not with "hoe". (We linguists are sticklers for these things!)
Ah, but in poetry the rule of rhyme word-form and syllabification precedes actual pronunciation.
Hostetter's Soliloquoy
Free will or not free will -- that is the question.
Whether 'tis Noldor using minds that suffer
The slings and arrows of cruel orkish fortune,
Or else disarmed amongst the Berens and Brigands,
who thus oppose will's inclination. To fade, to rule --
No more -- and by fading to say we end
The debate and the thousand following posts
This forum is heir to (the cause of constipation
Not devoutly wished). To fade, not die --
Not die perchance by fate? Ay, there's the rub,
For before that fade what choices come
While snuggling mortals coil 'neath sheets
Safe from fate's shadow'd claws, with no respect
For the fading caused from so long a life.
For who would bear the banning scorn of Mandos,
The Balrog's thong, Bauglir's brash obloquoy,
Pangs of sundered love, the last ship's delay,
The Silmarils' sad passing, and fighting
The long defeat so worthily we held,
When elves themselves no choices make,
But by doom alone end. How would Feanor fare,
To grunt and sweat to craft his gems,
But that the dread of something after death,
The green country under a swift sunrise
Where no traveler returns (not e'en Halflings),
And makes him surrender his jewelled prize,
And broken he goes where he knows not of?
Thus conscience does reside in each and all,
And thus the native hue of Aftercomers,
Sicklied o'er with the pale cast of Man,
Does not warrant by its singular gift
The whole regard of free will imbued,
Or Elves lose by fading, choice -- But sink me now!
The fair Magpie -- And A.S., in thy replies
Be all my posts remembered.
Please forgive the stilted iambic pentameter.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)
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Aelfwine
Rivendell
Aug 25 2008, 4:20am
Post #85 of 157
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<wiping tear from eye!!>
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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 25 2008, 11:15am
Post #86 of 157
(9036 views)
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"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Aug 25 2008, 1:38pm
Post #87 of 157
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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visualweasel
Rohan
Aug 25 2008, 3:03pm
Post #88 of 157
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A triumphal note in an otherwise endless (but still fun) debate!
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You all have certainly given much more to the question than I ever expected (though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised; the topic kept coming up all weekend during Mythcon, too). But the "ode" was definitely the high point for me!
Bravo Morthoron!! 
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
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Beren IV
Gondor
Aug 25 2008, 4:45pm
Post #89 of 157
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Come on, now you're just being silly,
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and there is no end to that. We all know you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some wa'ery tart threw a sword at you!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Morthoron
Gondor
Aug 26 2008, 1:57am
Post #91 of 157
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Thank you, one and all, and particularly those I plopped into the piece (willingly or more likely unwillingly). I had been working on a satiric version of Hamlet's Soliloquoy for a script piece I am doing for two other Tolkien forums (or fora) titled Monty Python's 'The Hobbit' (and yes, it is exactly what it sounds like), and Master Elrond uses part of that poem to bemoan the dullness of Rivendell, and elvishness in general. Taking it in another direction, it seemed applicable here as well. So I rewrote it to fit our debate. Here's the original as spoken by Elrond:
An Elf or not an Elf...that is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler to be mortal and suffer
The twinges and hair-loss of mankind's fortune,
Or to take up Elfdom and unlimited potential,
and by inference become immortal. An Elf -- to sleep no more --
Because Elves rarely sleep given their high metabolism.
But there is heartburn -- a thousand years of eating lembas --
Does not aid in my digestion. 'Tis not a bowel movement
One would wish on an enemy. And sheep -- the sheep of which I've dreamed --
Ah, I've lost count. For in that count of sheep no dreams may come,
While snuggly mortals coil all soundly 'neath comforters and nap wihout pause,
There's only insomnia that makes a calamity of so long a life....
See? Who says six years of English lit. was a waste of money?
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 26 2008, 2:21am
Post #92 of 157
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The Good Admins have saved you! And that's a most appropriate clerihew for Carl.
(Although I am a bit disappointed that his family has muted the proper Deutsch "-och" in the original surname into an Americanized "-ah".)
Speaking of clerihews...*looks around* Hm, has NEB yet posted his winning entry?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 26 2008, 2:23am
Post #93 of 157
(9012 views)
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Aug 26 2008, 5:50am
Post #94 of 157
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These poems are great - both of them!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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a.s.
Valinor
Aug 26 2008, 10:59am
Post #95 of 157
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no, NEB has not posted his winning entry
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I think he needs to, don't you? I only remember the first line...
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 26 2008, 2:02pm
Post #96 of 157
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(Go not to the Elves for advice for they will say both "free will" and "determinism".)
Certain Men, such as Aragorn, seem part of The Elect, those Predestined for a high seat.
On the other hand, other Men, such as Túrin, seem Predestined to be part of The Reprobates.
Though I wonder if this is more Germanic Wyrd than Christian Determinism.
(In any case, that's the book of course. Jackson's films gave Aragorn Free Will and a choice to become King.)
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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visualweasel
Rohan
Aug 26 2008, 2:19pm
Post #97 of 157
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The Germanic concept of wyrd (which you mentioned), as well as the etymology of fate, were among the points Verlyn Flieger marshalled in defense of her deterministic thesis.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Aug 26 2008, 3:26pm
Post #98 of 157
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If Aragorn did not have free will, Elrond would not have had to light a fire under his tail by telling him, "No crown, no girl!" He had a destiny, but it was up to him to strive for it. Many of us have destinies that we never fulfill.
Turin was a reprobate because his overweening pride made him putty in Morgoth's hands. His curse was that Morgoth kept throwing bait in front of him and he just couldn't resist nibbling at it.
In my humble opinion, anyway.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 26 2008, 3:26pm
Post #99 of 157
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...at least in Germanic lore, Men can turn away from their predetermined Wyrd of their own free will. Which is the most evil and perverse act they can do.
It's like the philosophy that God predetermined all Men to be Good and go to Heaven, but Men can choose to be Evil and go to the other place.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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visualweasel
Rohan
Aug 26 2008, 3:29pm
Post #100 of 157
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Verlyn agrees with you in principle. Men have free will. It’s the Elves, she says, who do not.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
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