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Shelob's Lair II - A labyrinth of darkness

Beren IV
Gondor


Aug 19 2008, 12:59am

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Shelob's Lair II - A labyrinth of darkness Can't Post

Before we encounter the title character of this chapter, we first encounter the title of the chapter itself: the lair Shelob has made for herself. Gollum leads Frodo and Sam to the tunnel, which Frodo asks if it is "the only way", and Gollum answers with affirmation. This is two days after the Dawnless Day (how did Frodo and Sam spend 36+ hours on the stairs?), but Frodo is not captured by Shagrat and company for another day yet (how is this possible??). In any event, the ash clouds from Orodruin have blotted out almost all light, but there still is a "grey blurring shadow" hangs over the land. The first thing that Sam notices as he approaches the cave is that there is a really awful odor coming out of it, and that said odor is different from that of the Morgul Vale down below. Within, the darkness is as deep as that in Moria, if not even deeper.

1. Volcanic ash clouds are really effective at blotting out light, but it is even darker inside. Is this just natural - there is a little sunlight still filtering through the cloud, or are we already encountering a more tangible darkness that we find when we are inside?

2. What's with the calendar? Did Tolkien mess up or something? How do our heroes spend two whole days between the Morgul Vale and Frodo's capture?

3. Is this tunnel the only way? We all know that Gollum intends to betray Frodo and Sam, but is there a grain of truth in his lies?

4. Spiders actually have a characteristic, musky odor to them. Should Sam have recognized this? Or, perhaps, does Shelob not actually smell like a normal spider, being at least part-demon?



Inside, there lurks some form of magical darkness as we soon find out: not only does it blind the Hobbits, it also causes them to forget what color and light once were. The tunnel at first is wide, the walls are smooth, and the floor is even except for the occasional step. At first, the dulling of visual senses comes with increased tactile acuity, but as time continues, hearing and touch become dulled as well. It is somewhere during this portion of the journey that Gollum disappears. Sam notices that there are multiple passages, and still thinks that it is "orc-like".

5. Who made this tunnel? Did Shelob herself carve it out, or was it the Morgul-orcs (or even Men of Gondor long ago)?

6. Why (or, perhaps, a better question is 'how') is Gollum apparently unaffected by this evil darkness? Is he simply more used to it, or has he somehow been granted passage that Frodo and Sam have not?

7. Why does Sam describe it as "orc-like"? We haven't encountered Shelob herself yet, but doesn't this all feel like it is quite a bit worse than mere orcs that may lurk here?



As the Hobbits continue, they begin to feel that something is holding them back. At the same time, they encounter strange tentacles or growth on the walls and ceiling.

8. When you first read this sequence, what did you imagine that these growths were? Did you really picture tentacles (I did!)? What horrible thing did you imagine the Hobbits were getting into?

9. In hindsight, we can presume that these growths are cobwebs, but there is also something else in the darkness that holds them. Are they walking into more cobwebs and not feeling them, or is this something else that is holding them back? Are these barriers physical or spiritual?


Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Elros
Rivendell


Aug 19 2008, 3:14am

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1. Volcanic ash clouds are really effective at blotting out light, but it is even darker inside. Is this just natural - there is a little sunlight still filtering through the cloud, or are we already encountering a more tangible darkness that we find when we are inside? I always took it to be the darkness from venturing into her lair.

2. What's with the calendar? Did Tolkien mess up or something? How do our heroes spend two whole days between the Morgul Vale and Frodo's capture? Poor travel agent? When I read, I have no idea what date it us unless Tolkien tells us, so I'm not much help.

3. Is this tunnel the only way? We all know that Gollum intends to betray Frodo and Sam, but is there a grain of truth in his lies? Realistically, it's probably not the only way. Many of the places in Middle Earth (Gondolin, Henneth Annun, Caras Galadhon) have hidden entrances that only its master know. That said, even if there was another way into Mordor, it's of no use to the hobbits, since they don't know them. As far as Gollum, I doubt he spent too much time exploring Mordor after he was allowed to escape. After his torment, I'd imagine he wanted to hightail it out of there.

4. Spiders actually have a characteristic, musky odor to them. Should Sam have recognized this? Or, perhaps, does Shelob not actually smell like a normal spider, being at least part-demon? Has Sam ever encountered spiders before Shelob? He only knew of oliphaunts in legends until this adventure, so perhaps the same is true of spiders. If the biology of Middle Earth is anything like that of present day Earth, it's not unreasonable to think the small spiders we know today weren't around back then. Again using oliphaunts as an example, it's certainly hinted at strongly that they were the ancestors of modern elephants.

5. Who made this tunnel? Did Shelob herself carve it out, or was it the Morgul-orcs (or even Men of Gondor long ago)? Fantastic question, and one I've wondered before as well. I don't think it was Gondorians, as they probably would have made passes over the mountains rather than tunnels through them. I would guess Shelob. She's had to live somewhere through all the ages, so why not here.

6. Why (or, perhaps, a better question is 'how') is Gollum apparently unaffected by this evil darkness? Is he simply more used to it, or has he somehow been granted passage that Frodo and Sam have not? I always took the talk about Frodo and Sam forgetting what light was being more figurative than literal, so I think Gollum is just more used to utter darkness from his many years under the Misty Mountains.

7. Why does Sam describe it as "orc-like"? Orcs live in holes and tunnels, as Sam undoubtedly knows by now. We haven't encountered Shelob herself yet, but doesn't this all feel like it is quite a bit worse than mere orcs that may lurk here? I have never read about what an orc-hole might be like, but I imagine it's terrible. It's hard for me to tell though, since I knew what it really was the first time I read the book.

8. When you first read this sequence, what did you imagine that these growths were? Did you really picture tentacles (I did!)? What horrible thing did you imagine the Hobbits were getting into? I knew they were spiderwebs woven by a giant spider, but only because I was a movie watching cheater.


9. In hindsight, we can presume that these growths are cobwebs, but there is also something else in the darkness that holds them. Are they walking into more cobwebs and not feeling them, or is this something else that is holding them back? Are these barriers physical or spiritual? I always thought they were just more webs spun by Shelob, but someone else here suggested Ungoliant was a maia, so Shelob may have some magic in her blood. Even the terms "weaving webs" can be both literal and figurative.



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Aug 19 2008, 4:16am

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Daylight Deprivation Experiments [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether Tolkien intended it or not, the 36 hour climb actually makes sense (and remember, they did sleep along the way, giving Gollum his chance to betray them.) In experiments deep within caverns, with people deprived of all of the usual indicators of time passage, people tended to stay up much longer than they would otherwise, and wound up living out longer "days" than they would with a normal light/dark cycle. These experiments, however, took place in the 60's, so Tolkien couldn't have referenced them.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Beren IV
Gondor


Aug 19 2008, 5:12am

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Huh? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the biology of Middle Earth is anything like that of present day Earth, it's not unreasonable to think the small spiders we know today weren't around back then.

First, there are a number of references to other spiders elsewhere, including in the Shire, and moreover Sam has no problem identifying the cobwebs at the other side of the tunnel.

Moreover, spiders are ubiquitous in the world. Elephants are not. Even if the Oliphaunts would be mythical creatures to someone from the Shire, spiders wouldn't be...

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


sador
Half-elven

Aug 19 2008, 3:03pm

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The dark places of the world [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Volcanic ash clouds are really effective at blotting out light, but it is even darker inside. Is this just natural - there is a little sunlight still filtering through the cloud, or are we already encountering a more tangible darkness that we find when we are inside?
In some religious traditions, darkness is not just the lack of light, but something more tangible (see for example Is. 45:7; although the first chapter of Genesis implies otherwise). I won't be surprised if Tolkien was thinking of some kind of Unlight - like Ungoliant used when she and Melkor attacked the Trees of Valinor.


2. What's with the calendar? Did Tolkien mess up or something? How do our heroes spend two whole days between the Morgul Vale and Frodo's capture?
It is far more difficult than Moria, climbing and poisinous; Moria took them some three days. Are you sure it is that much longer?

3. Is this tunnel the only way? We all know that Gollum intends to betray Frodo and Sam, but is there a grain of truth in his lies?
I've dealt with this in great length six chapters ago.

4. Spiders actually have a characteristic, musky odor to them. Should Sam have recognized this? Or, perhaps, does Shelob not actually smell like a normal spider, being at least part-demon?

I wouldn't recognise the odour. So Sam might not recognise it either.

5. Who made this tunnel? Did Shelob herself carve it out, or was it the Morgul-orcs (or even Men of Gondor long ago)?
It was natural, and then Shelob enlarged it. Afterwards, the orcs made side-tunnels to try and avoid her.

6. Why (or, perhaps, a better question is 'how') is Gollum apparently unaffected by this evil darkness? Is he simply more used to it, or has he somehow been granted passage that Frodo and Sam have not?
Your second suggestion is intriguing, but I suspect the first is nearer the mark.

7. Why does Sam describe it as "orc-like"? We haven't encountered Shelob herself yet, but doesn't this all feel like it is quite a bit worse than mere orcs that may lurk here?
As you said, their senses are dulled. It takes Sam time to recognise that there are worse than orcs ahead.

8. When you first read this sequence, what did you imagine that these growths were? Did you really picture tentacles (I did!)? What horrible thing did you imagine the Hobbits were getting into?
9. In hindsight, we can presume that these growths are cobwebs, but there is also something else in the darkness that holds them. Are they walking into more cobwebs and not feeling them, or is this something else that is holding them back? Are these barriers physical or spiritual?

Can't say. I was never a great reader of horror books, so I didn't picture anything.
And I would assume their strength is simply failing.


"There is more than one passage here" - Sam


Elros
Rivendell


Aug 19 2008, 4:52pm

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I never noticed them [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I've never noticed the references to spiders except when pertaining to Shelob. I miss many of the minor details of the story though, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. Wink I still have no idea what trees and plants grow where. It just has never seemed all that important to me, so I apologize. Since there are spiders in the Shire, the only reason I'll guess Sam didn't recognize the smell is because he doesn't know what they smell like. There are spiders where I live and I have absolutely not clue what they smell like.

As far as biology goes, just because an organism is widespread now, doesn't mean it has always been so. Elephants and their cousins used to be much more widespread than today, but due to their size they could not adapt to climate change and increased predation. Spiders have evolved quickly, hence they have been more successful and spread to new habitats around the globe. Even if there weren't spiders in the Shire, who's to say Sam wouldn't recognize spiderwebs. He had never previously seen an oliphaunt and instantly recognized one. Even if he had never seen a spider, he could know enough one to recognize something as unique as spiderwebs. The logic of my thinking wasn't off, just my attention to detail.


Elros
Rivendell


Aug 19 2008, 5:27pm

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I forgot to thank you before [In reply to] Can't Post

My wife needed the computer, so I figured I better give it up. So, thank you, Beren, for answering my question about spiders. When I ask questions, such as when I asked if Sam had ever seen a spider, I do not intend them to be snarky in any way. I am asking to learn and am merely speculating about possible answers, which is what makes this forum so much fun for me, since there is so much of Middle Earth left unexplained. I know I don't have as many Tolkien merit badges as some of you would prefer me to, so I ask some dumb questions and speculate on things that may seem elementary to many of you. If this is a source of annoyance, then I apologize. I do appreciate the people who answer my dumb questions, because I learn something new each time, just as I did about spiders from Beren. I get the sense my act is running thin, however, so from now on I'll stick to things I'm positive about.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 19 2008, 7:10pm

Post #8 of 20 (1293 views)
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"...even darkness which may be felt." [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Volcanic ash clouds are really effective at blotting out light, but it is even darker inside. Is this just natural - there is a little sunlight still filtering through the cloud, or are we already encountering a more tangible darkness that we find when we are inside?

Tangible darkness. I’d say Shelob is like a squid-spider, squirting out an inky darkness that is also a stupefying venom.


2. What's with the calendar? Did Tolkien mess up or something? How do our heroes spend two whole days between the Morgul Vale and Frodo's capture?

If I was physically tired, mentally exhausted, and absolutely hungry I’d probably take a lot of sit-downs trying to climb a mountain. It’s just Tolkien doesn’t tell us every time they stopped and rested. Two days seems right for climbing a mountain in their condition.


3. Is this tunnel the only way? We all know that Gollum intends to betray Frodo and Sam, but is there a grain of truth in his lies?

I’m sure with proper mountaineering equipment they could climb right over the mountains. And with enough supplies they could circle around to Rhun and come in the wide open back door. But this seems to be the best option given the time constraints.


4. Spiders actually have a characteristic, musky odor to them. Should Sam have recognized this?

I’d think there would be a big difference between identifying the subtle smell of a little garden spider and the overwhelming odor of one the size of a Buick.


Or, perhaps, does Shelob not actually smell like a normal spider, being at least part-demon?

I’m sure demons don’t smell too good either. Like with butter, there’s no showers in Hell.


5. Who made this tunnel? Did Shelob herself carve it out, or was it the Morgul-orcs (or even Men of Gondor long ago)?

I’d guess some of the eastern Dwarves that were in service to Sauron.


6. Why (or, perhaps, a better question is 'how') is Gollum apparently unaffected by this evil darkness? Is he simply more used to it, or has he somehow been granted passage that Frodo and Sam have not?

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
"And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
"They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.”
-Exodus 10:21-23

If God could make an exception for the Israelites with His darkness, why couldn’t Shelob do the same with hers?


7. Why does Sam describe it as "orc-like"?

Because it feels bad and nasty. I’m sure if it had felt light and good he would have called it “elf-like” even though it had nothing to do with Elves.


We haven't encountered Shelob herself yet, but doesn't this all feel like it is quite a bit worse than mere orcs that may lurk here?

Maybe “Uruk-Hai-like”?


8. When you first read this sequence, what did you imagine that these growths were?

Definitely something organic.


Did you really picture tentacles (I did!)?

That’s what the man said.


What horrible thing did you imagine the Hobbits were getting into?

Maybe they were already inside something’s gullet. I remembered an EC horror comic about this house that was actually alive, and you walked in, and the rug was pinkish like a tongue, and you’d fall asleep, and then it’d eat you, the end.


9. In hindsight, we can presume that these growths are cobwebs, but there is also something else in the darkness that holds them. Are they walking into more cobwebs and not feeling them, or is this something else that is holding them back?

The venomous darkness.


Are these barriers physical or spiritual?

Yes.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



sador
Half-elven

Aug 19 2008, 9:17pm

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Keep asking! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your questions are far from dumb, and if you're concerned about forgetting the small details - well, that happens to me all the time, and to quite a few others.
And if you don't ask. how will you learn?Blush
I don't think anyone here is annoyed by your questions (even if occasionally one might seem trivial), but even if so - that is offset by the fresh angle of someone who has read the books only recently, and can approach them with more infatuation than familiarity.

The level of scholarship some of the posters here show might be intimidating, and therefore I really appreciate anyone new to the books who 'dares' post in the RR on a regular basis; but trust me, there is nothing to fear and a lot to enjoy.

Keep up with the good work!

"There is more than one passage here" - Sam


(This post was edited by sador on Aug 19 2008, 9:19pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Aug 19 2008, 9:43pm

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Don't Worry [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe in any questions being dumb--I ask really basic stuff all the time, myself, not knowing any other way to learn. I can't speak for Beren or the rest of TORn, but questions about things that I take for granted often lead me to see them with new eyes, refreshing (and sometimes revising) my opinions. I much prefer a board like this, with a vast range of difference between levels of experience, than one where everybody knows so much of the same things that they talk in shorthand and the details fade for lack of attention.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Aug 19 2008, 9:45pm)


batik
Tol Eressea


Aug 19 2008, 11:17pm

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time [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
2. What's with the calendar? Did Tolkien mess up or something? How do our heroes spend two whole days between the Morgul Vale and Frodo's capture?


Are you looking at Appendix B for dates? I've already ran into a "huh?" concerning dates for the chapter I will be working on later this year. I think sometimes the start time is really early (1am) or really late (10pm) in our way of thinking about a day but since the event starts within that timeframe , that particular date is given. So Frodo reaches the Morgul-road at dusk on the 9th of March, spends all of the 10th climbing/resting, Gollum visits Shelob sometime on the 11th, and they enter Shelob's lair on the 12th. The Frodo is captured on the 13th! Well that's 3 days between coming to the Morgul-road and being captured.


Quote
6. Why (or, perhaps, a better question is 'how') is Gollum apparently unaffected by this evil darkness? Is he simply more used to it, or has he somehow been granted passage that Frodo and Sam have not?


Hasn't Gollum been here before? He did live in the dark for a long time so I would think the physical darkness does not affect him now.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 20 2008, 1:53am

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Well, HoME is not much help... [In reply to] Can't Post

The best I can find on the creation of the tunnel is this note of Tolkien's: "The tunnel is of orc-make (?) and has the usual branching passages."

Question-mark is his; so even he was uncertain on this point. His diagrams show a straight main tunnel, with smaller side passages, and a nice dark blob for Shelob's lair.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 20 2008, 5:35am

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It's fine. [In reply to] Can't Post


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When I ask questions, such as when I asked if Sam had ever seen a spider, I do not intend them to be snarky in any way.


You weren't snarky at all. I think Beren, the knowledgeable biologist, was briefly taken aback, forgetting that what is well known to him may not be obvoius to all.

With a few exceptions, the species of Middle-earth seem to be those of modern Europe. As for earlier in the story, I can't remember any encounters with spiders, but when Sam sam sees Gollum descending from the Emyn Muil, he describes their pursuer as "like a nasty crawling spider on a wall", so Sam has seen spiders before. There is also The Hobbit, where Bilbo sees small spiders in the Mirkwood treetops, and fights much larger ones below -- Sam would have heard those tales.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 20 2008, 5:43am

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In fact, it's contradictory. [In reply to] Can't Post

See also this discussion from January.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 20 2008, 5:53am

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What is the opposite of Lórien? [In reply to] Can't Post

Marjorie Burns and others have contrasted Shelob and Galadriel. One further connection: in "Lothlórien", we read:

Quote
The others cast themselves down upon the fragrant grass, but Frodo stood awhile still lost in wonder. It seemed to him that he had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at once clear cut, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured for ever. He saw no colour but those he knew, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful. In winter here no heart could mourn for summer or for spring. No blemish or sickness or deformity could be seen in anything that grew upon the earth. On the land of Lórien there was no stain.



And here we read:

Quote
Drawing a deep breath they passed inside. In a few steps they were in utter and impenetrable dark. Not since the lightless passages of Moria had Frodo or Sam known such darkness, and if possible here it was deeper and denser. There, there were airs moving, and echoes, and a sense of space. Here the air was still, stagnant, heavy, and sound fell dead. They walked as it were in a black vapour wrought of veritable darkness itself that, as it was breathed, brought blindness not only to the eyes but to the mind, so that even the memory of colours and of forms and of any light faded out of thought. Night always had been, and always would be, and night was all.



Note in particular how Frodo at Cerin Amroth was particularly aware of light, shape, and colour, and that those are three things that fade from memory in Torech Ungol.

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FarFromHome
Valinor


Aug 20 2008, 9:27am

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If Sam knows Bilbo's tales... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There is also The Hobbit, where Bilbo sees small spiders in the Mirkwood treetops, and fights much larger ones below -- Sam would have heard those tales.



... isn't it odd that he doesn't remember that the giant spiders put their victims to sleep rather than killing them outright? I've often wondered about that - did Sam know the story of The Hobbit, or did Bilbo keep the whole story secret rather than just the part about the Ring?


In Reply To

As for earlier in the story, I can't remember any encounters with spiders...



Yes, there are a few similes based on spiders in the story, as you say, but although I don't recall any actual spiders being mentioned, there are also a number of descriptions where spider-webs are found in natural settings (hedges netted with spider-webs are mentioned at the entrance to the Old Forest, at the house of Tom Bombadil and perhaps at Rivendell).

I agree that we can normally assume that the species of Middle-earth are the same as those of modern Europe. I'd go further in the case of Sam, and say that what he's familiar with can normally be assumed to be what a man of his class and level of education would have been familiar with in England of the 18th or 19th century.


In Reply To

[To Elros] You weren't snarky at all.


I completely agree with what you said to Elros, and I'd just like to add mine to everyone else's encouragements.


...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Aug 20 2008, 3:24pm

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Forgetfulness [In reply to] Can't Post

I am often amazed at the things that I forget under stress. Sam must be much the same. He has many an old tale bumping about in his head, and the spider incident could have easily gotten lost in the shuffle. No doubt that one was stored somewhere under "Fond Childhood Memories" of Bilbo telling tales rather than, "Things Urgent To Know" which the brain zooms in on in a fix. I mean he does remember the old tales whenever he needs a courage-fix, but he was running so hard on adrenaline that he didn't draw on that this time. Or maybe he did, but imperfectly, randomly.

Even so, his unconscious mind did remember, as the unconscious always does. That would explain the instinct of his heart, telling him not to leave Frodo.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Aug 20 2008, 3:27pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Aug 20 2008, 3:30pm

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Yes, one of those odd brain malfunctions... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I am often amazed at the things that I forget under stress.



Sam also starts out recognizing the scene as the one he saw in the Mirror, of Frodo asleep under a cliff, but then second-guesses himself. But I guess we're getting ahead of ourselves a bit ... better wait for next week's chapter!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 20 2008, 4:05pm

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Good point! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Beren IV
Gondor


Aug 20 2008, 4:11pm

Post #20 of 20 (1236 views)
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Only some spiders do that [In reply to] Can't Post


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isn't it odd that he doesn't remember that the giant spiders put their victims to sleep rather than killing them outright?


No, it's not odd.

A living victim still has a functioning immune system, which will resist the attacks by pathogens and other things to digest the victim itself. If you're going to wait, then you want it alive.

On the other hand, if you're just hungry, then you inject your digestive enzymes right away and then eat. Being digested alive of course will cause you to not be alive for very long, especially if the digestion occurs internally to you.

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist

 
 

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