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weaver
Half-elven
Aug 3 2008, 12:20am
Post #1 of 13
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The Forbidden Pool, Part Six -- Final Thoughts and Final Post
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This is the last post for the discussion on The Forbidden Pool.
I picked this chapter because it is one I like, but I had never taken the time to really analyze it -- leading a RR discussion is really good for making you do that! And I also had a lot of questions about it, in my own mind, and I appreciated the different perspectives shared here to help me answer them.
A few final questions, if I may -- once again, take your pick if you don't have time to answer them all...
1. Would this Chapter have been as effective if it took place in the Forbidden Forest, or the Forbidden Cave, or the Forbidden Tower, or some other type of forbidden place?
2. What other places in LOTR are "forbidden"? What about actions?
3. Is this chapter a "fairy tale?" (see FarFromHome's responses)
4. Did any of Darkstone's comments get you to think about Faramir in a little darker light than he's normally cast? Or do you agree with Orcbane that Tolkien is going overboard on making Faramir ultra-noble?
5. How much of the Faramir chapters are based on Tolkien's real-life war experiences? (see the debate between squire and Darkstone)
6. As Curious asked, are the formal rules in LOTR, like Faramir's judgments here, self-enforcing? Is this a world without lawyers and a legal system?
7. Do you agree with batik, that Faramir "leads" Frodo, and "intimidates" Gollum?
8. Do you agree with sador's thoughts, that Gollum "can" be reached by appealing to his memories of better days, or through the telling of tales, and that when Frodo uses the Ring, he's using force to get Gollum to cooperate? When Frodo does use this Ring, is he taking the easy way out, or does Gollum just leave him no choice?
9. Anyone want to take a crack at looking at this chapter from a psychological viewpoint, i.e., that the Forbidden Pool represents Frodo's subconcious, where he has to encounter his "shadow" side, aka, Gollum?
10. Would Frodo have made it to Mt. Doom if he had not encountered Faramir?
Feel free to add any other thoughts or comments on aspects of this chapter that I did not address.
Thanks again to all who lurked and participated!
Weaver
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 3 2008, 3:53am
Post #2 of 13
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Would this Chapter have been as effective if it took place in the Forbidden Forest, or the Forbidden Cave, or the Forbidden Tower, or some other type of forbidden place? Seems the cover of darkness (due to being blindfolded or by nightfall) as well as the location being hidden and guarded are what make it work as a sort of dream-like sequence. Other locations don't seem to have all those qualities.
What other places in LOTR are "forbidden"? What about actions?
Other places...Lorien, Fanghorn, deep inside Moria.
Actions..putting on the Ring, looking into the Palantir(s), using the Black Speech, saying Sauron's name.
Did any of Darkstone's comments get you to think about Faramir in a little darker light than he's normally cast? Or do you agree with Orcbane that Tolkien is going overboard on making Faramir ultra-noble?
Made me wonder if Faramir is a realistic romantic or a romantic realist!
As Curious asked, are the formal rules in LOTR, like Faramir's judgments here, self-enforcing? Is this a world without lawyers and a legal system? Seems to be alot of leeway with the application of the rules by those in authority. Eomer makes a decision regarding Aragorn and the response of his Riders implies that they know the rule and are maybe a bit surprised that Eomer has disregarded it. Same with Faramir and his Men with regards to Frodo.
Other than the Council(s) there doesn't seem to be a formal "governing/advisory" body.
Do you agree with sador's thoughts, that Gollum "can" be reached by appealing to his memories of better days, or through the telling of tales, and that when Frodo uses the Ring, he's using force to get Gollum to cooperate? When Frodo does use this Ring, is he taking the easy way out, or does Gollum just leave him no choice? I think Frodo can distract Gollum momentarily with tales.
Anyone want to take a crack at looking at this chapter from a psychological viewpoint, i.e., that the Forbidden Pool represents Frodo's subconcious, where he has to encounter his "shadow" side, aka, Gollum? Back to (a few of) the words used by Tolkien to describe this--splashing/rushing, flowed/plunged, curved/dived, chattering/fuming. Some have a sense of the Shire and others could be thought of as unShire-like. Frodo, of course, is of the Shire. Gollum is not. When Frodo goes up the steps he is able to gain some perspective, seeing both some dark and some (moon) light. In this setting, Frodo makes some choices-is Gollum's presence necessary for the success of this quest? will he continue on with or without Gollum? will he go on at all? I think the decisions he makes after his encounter with Gollum indicate that Frodo is aware he must use all means necessary.
As a bonus!--I think some of Faramir's statements (value placed on life, importance of history, seeking a peaceful life, and "let's have a drink!") validate Frodo's own views and encourage him to press on.
(This post was edited by batik on Aug 3 2008, 3:57am)
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 3 2008, 12:59pm
Post #3 of 13
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"If it be truly the last, I am glad"
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Which makes you Galadriel, and me, err, Saruman...
1. Would this Chapter have been as effective if it took place in the Forbidden Forest, or the Forbidden Cave, or the Forbidden Tower, or some other type of forbidden place?
That is one aspect you haven't asked about - the connection between this pool and Gollum's pool in the Misty Mountains, where Bilbo finds him.
Once we've made that connection, the answer to your question is no.
2. What other places in LOTR are "forbidden"? What about actions?
Lorien, Fangorn, the Paths of the Dead.
But the pool is forbidden in a different sense - in the death penalty to all who enter unbidden.
A forbidden act like that - I can think of only one (quoting from 'The King of the Golden Hall'):
Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.
Forbidden places like that are the Amon Anwar on the Halifirien (as told in Unfinished Tales), and probably the Paths of the Dead.
3. Is this chapter a "fairy tale?" (see FarFromHome's responses)
I remain unconvinced.
4. Did any of Darkstone's comments get you to think about Faramir in a little darker light than he's normally cast? Or do you agree with Orcbane that Tolkien is going overboard on making Faramir ultra-noble?
Not a darker light - being a good interrogator is not inherently bad, and it is possible some of the more sinister techniques were arrived at innocently enough. And I reject out of hand Darkstone's insinuations about the great number of previous prisoners which went down the pool to the rocks beneath.
But it is very good to remember that Faramir is not yet truly revealed as the knight in shining armour he ultimately becomes, and that his acts here might still be interpreted both ways - as one of the pro-Jacksonites on these boards, you ought to embrace this notion!
But last chapter I spoke of the spell of Faramir, which entraps the reader (myself as well), as it does Frodo. Orcbane is half right: Tolkien is not going overboard in making Faramir ultra-noble, but in convincing us he is. He should have worked as a PR advisor - the Labour would have never won an election that way!
(Although admittedly, in the US, the "plumed knight" never won a single election; and he tried hard)
5. How much of the Faramir chapters are based on Tolkien's real-life war experiences? (see the debate between squire and Darkstone)
Was it squire who wrote that Faramir was supposed to be an ideal uncorrupted-by-war man of valour? Whoever it was, I totally agree with him.
6. As Curious asked, are the formal rules in LOTR, like Faramir's judgments here, self-enforcing? Is this a world without lawyers and a legal system?
We see Aragorn pronouncing judgement over many different people in 'The Steward and the King'
7. Do you agree with batik, that Faramir "leads" Frodo, and "intimidates" Gollum?
First, I want to welcome batik - it's been long since we've had a new person answering all questions regularly! Keep up with the good work!
I'm not sure I agree, because of Darkstone's points - Frodo does pass through a pretty intimidating experience.
And I must point out that movie-Faramir "leads" Gollum.
8. Do you agree with sador's thoughts, that Gollum "can" be reached by appealing to his memories of better days, or through the telling of tales, and that when Frodo uses the Ring, he's using force to get Gollum to cooperate? When Frodo does use this Ring, is he taking the easy way out, or does Gollum just leave him no choice?
I usually agree with myself over a couple of days, thank you.
9. Anyone want to take a crack at looking at this chapter from a psychological viewpoint, i.e., that the Forbidden Pool represents Frodo's subconcious, where he has to encounter his "shadow" side, aka, Gollum?
Yes and no. Yes, because it would be interesting; no, because i have no time.
10. Would Frodo have made it to Mt. Doom if he had not encountered Faramir?
I think not. The whole aftermath of the war in the West was influenced by Faramir's report, and the assault on the Black Gate was critical for Frodo's getting to Mount Doom.
Also, the trials Frodo, Sam and Gollum pass here were critical - as I've mentioned before, if Gollum couldn't betray Frodo at the end, the Quest would have utterly failed.
But of course, the Powers (or Tolkien) could have invented a different way to overthrow Sauron.
A last comment -
Frodo stirred. And suddenly his heart went out to Faramir...
...Frodo raised his head, and then stood up. Despair had not left him, but the weakness has passed. He even smiled grimly, feeling now as clearly as a moment before he had felt the opposite, that what he had to do, he had to do, if he could, and whether Faramir or Aragorn or Elrond or Galadriel or Gandalf or anyone else ever knew about it was beside the purpose. That (in 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol') is the last time we actually look into Frodo's heart; and his first thought is of Faramir, and his is the first name that comes to Frodo's mind as someone who is concerned with the success of the Quest.
"I would not have you go to death or to torment" - Faramir
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 3 2008, 1:57pm
Post #4 of 13
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I forgot to say thank you for this very interesting week.
"A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired" - Sam
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batik
Tol Eressea
Aug 3 2008, 5:40pm
Post #5 of 13
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Yes, thanks for a great "pool party", weaver!//
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 4 2008, 2:22am
Post #6 of 13
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I like your "theme" for this chapter!
I've quite enjoyed Darkstone and squire's take on whether Tolkien could have known about interrogation techniques. The jury's still out on that, of course, and probably always will be; but they provided a fascinating look at that particular part of the WWI war effort.
As for Frodo threatening Gollum with the Ring: this was a desperate situation, and Frodo had no choice; he had to convince Gollum to come with him, by whatever means he could.
And could the duo have made it to Mt. Doom without Faramir? Well, certainly their delay put them out of harm's way for long enough so they could make it to the Stair unseen! And the extra provisions, and weapons (in the form of walking-sticks) helped sustain them - and helped Sam to beat off Gollum at the far end of Shelob's Lair. And they received further blessings for their quest. So: maybe they could have still made it, but the chances would have been far slimmer!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 4 2008, 3:35pm
Post #7 of 13
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"Our dreams convince us that it is so."
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“The Oedipus Rex is a tragedy of fate; its tragic effect depends on the conflict between the all-powerful will of the gods and the vain efforts of human beings threatened with disaster; resignation to the divine will, and the perception of one's own impotence is the lesson which the deeply moved spectator is supposed to learn from the tragedy.
…
“His fate moves us only because it might have been our own, because the oracle laid upon us before our birth the very curse which rested upon him."
-Sigmund Freud, The Interpretation of Dreams
1. Would this Chapter have been as effective if it took place in the Forbidden Forest, or the Forbidden Cave, or the Forbidden Tower, or some other type of forbidden place?
Nope. In LOTR pools are magical like the Mirrormere or Galadriels’ mirror. They also hide dangers, like the Watcher’s pool, or the Dead Marshes.
It’s interesting, however, that in "The Empire Strikes Back" Luke has his ordeal in a cave, in a marsh, in a forest.
2. What other places in LOTR are "forbidden"?
Lothlorien, Rivendell, Moria, the Paths of the Dead,
What about actions?
You don’t break oaths.
3. Is this chapter a "fairy tale?" (see FarFromHome's responses)
In the sense of crossing the boundary into a world of fey. Fairies resent the intrusion of visitors, and the consequences can be dire for trespassers. Of course the rewards of wisdom and self-knowledge can be great. And very dangerous.
4. Did any of Darkstone's comments get you to think about Faramir in a little darker light than he's normally cast?
You have to remember Darkstone worked on a ranch while he was growing up. Thus he’s had years of experience at shoveling horse manure.
Or do you agree with Orcbane that Tolkien is going overboard on making Faramir ultra-noble?
Ah, if that was Tolkien’s intention Faramir would have walked out onto the pool, reached down, and nabbed Gollum himself.
But one has this image of baffling regression, where Faramir is perfect, Aragorn is perfecter, and Beren is perfectest.
If Beren, Aragorn, and Faramir are intentional stand-ins for Tolkien, then there is something immensely egotistical going on here. I can’t help but reject that notion. I have to go with Tolkien's own words of humility: “I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size).”
5. How much of the Faramir chapters are based on Tolkien's real-life war experiences? (see the debate between squire and Darkstone)
It’s really hard to conceive of any aspect of Tolkien’s real-life war experiences that wouldn't affect his life. War does that.
6. As Curious asked, are the formal rules in LOTR, like Faramir's judgments here, self-enforcing?
I’m still bemused by Faramir assuaging Frodo by making a final ruling of mercy towards Gollum, then in the very next breath cowing Gollum by threatening to rescind it. All of Faramir’s rulings are final no matter how many times he changes them.
Is this a world without lawyers and a legal system?
There’s the written contracts of the Hobbits and the Dwarves.
And the laws of the Elves: “I do not doubt you,' said Haldir. 'Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside.”
And of the Rohirrm: “Yet I am not free to do all as I would. It is against our law to let strangers wander at will in our land, until the king himself shall give them leave, and more strict is the command in these days of peril.”
There’s also the laws of Gondor, wherein the Council of Gondor’s final ruling was that the claim of Isildur’s Heir to the throne was totally and forever invalid. At least until that final ruling was overruled for Aragorn. Apparently consistency is not a quality of the legal system of Gondor.
7. Do you agree with batik, that Faramir "leads" Frodo, and "intimidates" Gollum?
Makes sense to me.
8. Do you agree with sador's thoughts, that Gollum "can" be reached by appealing to his memories of better days, or through the telling of tales, and that when Frodo uses the Ring, he's using force to get Gollum to cooperate?
Yes. Rapport building is the most efficient way to ensure sincere cooperation, even lasting loyalty. Coercion can bring about the appearance of cooperation, but they’re probably only telling you what you want to hear. And never turn your back on them.
When Frodo does use this Ring, is he taking the easy way out, or does Gollum just leave him no choice?
It’s the easy way out. As we’ve seen in our own world, it may be politically expedient and look good in the newspapers, but here it’s seven years later and we’re still wandering in the wilderness and no closer to tossing our own ring into Mount Doom.
9. Anyone want to take a crack at looking at this chapter from a psychological viewpoint, i.e., that the Forbidden Pool represents Frodo's subconcious, where he has to encounter his "shadow" side, aka, Gollum?
Sure. Gollum is the primitive Id, Faramir is the idealistic Superego, and Frodo is the poor little Ego stuck between the two. This has been going on since FOTR. For example, consider Freud’s own ruminations on the das Heimliche (“homely”) in relation to “The Last Homely (“Heimliche”) House”. And once we get into The Return of the King the Freudian subtexts come even more fast and furious. But back to the subconscious thing.
From Sigmund Freud, The Anatomy of the Mental Personality:
“When you think of this dividing up of the personality into ego, super-ego and id, you must not imagine sharp dividing lines such as are artificially drawn in the field of political geography. We cannot do justice to the characteristics of the mind by means of linear contours, such as occur in a drawing or in a primitive painting, but we need rather the areas of colour shading off into one another that are to be found in modern pictures.
…
For their [the therapeutic efforts of psychoanalysis] object is to strengthen the ego, to make it more independent of the super-ego, to widen its field of vision, and so to extend its organization that it can take over new portions of the id. Where id was, there shall ego be."
(And where Gollum was, there shall Frodo be.)
“It is reclamation work, like the draining of the Zuyder Zee.”
-ibid
(Or the draining of The Forbidden Pool.)
10. Would Frodo have made it to Mt. Doom if he had not encountered Faramir?
Of course. Fate, providence, destiny, Eru, will always prevail.
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.”
-Ephesians 1:4.
"Stronger than the foundations of the earth!! ... Nah."
-Galadriel
Thanks for a great week!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 4 2008, 3:44pm)
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weaver
Half-elven
Aug 4 2008, 9:12pm
Post #8 of 13
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Thanks for taking on question 9 especially...
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I've read psychological interpretations of this Chapter, so I knew it could be looked at that way, but did not feel well versed enough to try my hand at all that Id-talk. Thanks for adding that kind of information to this discussion.
Weaver
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weaver
Half-elven
Aug 4 2008, 9:14pm
Post #9 of 13
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I really should know better -- whenever I say I have no more questions to ask about a chapter, I think of 10 more!
Weaver
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weaver
Half-elven
Aug 4 2008, 9:19pm
Post #10 of 13
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Faramir validating Frodo's thinking....
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Even if Faramir had not given Frodo rest, and food, and staves, you are right that just having a sounding board for his decisions was very healing for Frodo. Faramir provides Frodo with a higher level of moral support than Sam can give him, which he has been missing since he lost Gandalf and Aragorn as guides. That alone means that Frodo had a better shot at getting to Mt. Doom than he would have had these two guys never met up. I had not thought of this before. Thanks!
Weaver
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Modtheow
Lorien
Aug 10 2008, 1:53pm
Post #11 of 13
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I'm sorry that I couldn't participate during your week -- I was travelling with my family for several weeks -- but I have read through the discussions with interest now that I'm back. I'll just answer one of your last questions: yes, Darkstone's comments did get me to see Faramir in a new light. Not as a villainous interrogator, but as a really smart soldier who can think on his feet in the midst of extreme danger and make good decisions every time. There has to be a reason why he's a successful and well-loved captain, and he demonstrates that in his treatment of Frodo and Gollum; not only does he read the characters and the situation correctly and gradually extract the information that he wants, but he also mitigates blind adherence to the law with reason and mercy.
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weaver
Half-elven
Aug 12 2008, 1:36am
Post #12 of 13
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and thanks for your comments...
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If we ever do another thematic discussion series around here, one I might tackle would be "following orders", for lack of a better term. Tolkien presents several case studies, I think, about when you should follow orders and when you should not...Faramir's judgments here, are just one example of this. You perfectly describe the position he represents with your line "he also mitigates blind adherence to the law with reason and mercy." Well said, and thanks for the response!
Weaver
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 5:11am
Post #13 of 13
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Another formidable job – thanks, weaver! //
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