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sador
Half-elven
Jul 11 2008, 9:46am
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The Black Gate is Closed, VIII - "Gollum, or Smeagol if you wish"
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Due to time pressures, I'll post the two next threads one after the other, and the last one (exept for the free-for-all) on Saturday late night of Sunday morning local time. I hope I'll have the opportunity to review it before posting.
These two threads will deal with Gollum and Sam, and the later one with Frodo's decision. Some of you (notably FarFromHome) have discussed this question; the next thread will bring it into focus.
So from the leader, we turn to the guide.
While Frodo is trying to choose, his two companions sit and wait. In all probability, his threatening Gollum had both asserted his authority and made them concious of his ultimate unfathomability. But unlike Sam, a servant who is also a friend – Gollum serves Frodo out of fear, while plotting against him. As Beren IV put it (in the 4th thread of ‘The Taming of Smeagol’) – Frodo is a Dark Lord of one servant. A nasty wretch, to be sure – but the only possible guide Frodo can find.
If Beren IV is correct, then as Dark Lords never relinquish power voluntarily, apart of Frodo’s need for a guide, Gollum also fills his Ringbearer’s need for a slave. But in ‘The Forbidden Pool’, we see a third reason of Frodo to rely on Gollum: he believes he is commited to the creature for his service. A lost wanderer needs a guide; a Dark Lord needs slaves; a benevolent Master might have servants, but their claim on him is as great as his on them.
If Sam thinks of Gollum in the third sense, then he has a pefectly normal reason to resent him – jealousy. And I’m sure Sam never did even think of Frodo in the Dark Lord terms. But Smeagol himself – did he, or could he see Frodo as a benevolent Master? I think not. The double nature of Gollum’s treatment of Frodo is not neccessarily a matter of schizophrenia, but of the double nature of their bond (of the two natures of it he does perceive): a Ghan-buri-Ghan – Theoden bond, of someone who takes pride and a personal interest in the safe passage of the Lord he is leading; and a Saruman – Sauron bond, of service through fear and common interest, while hoping (or actively plotting) for a chance to grab the Ring and gain the whip-hand.
Gollum doesn’t narrate this story. We never see events through his eyes (as we did in The Hobbit), and whenever he tells things of himself, Tolkien (here through Frodo’s mind; in ‘The Shadow of the Past’, through Gandalf’s words) immediately reminds us he is unreliable. Even the fleeting moment on Cirith Ungol is described from the outside, with Tolkien telling us what an observer might have seen. I’d like to examine four moments in this chapter which might reveal something of his tortured psychology:
“Keep it, nice master, and be kind to Smeagol. Don’t let Him have it. Or go away, go to nice places, and give it back to little Smeagol.”
1. Is this a Freudian slip? What did Tolkien think of Freud?
2. What does the venerable Smeagol mean by calling himself ‘little’? Does this contrast with last chapter’s “Lord Smeagol! Gollum the Great! The Gollum!”? Only Gollum is Great, but how little could a lord be?
A second moment is after Frodo threatened him. Gollum is flustered – grovelling on the ground, speaking incoherently.
3. Is he flustered by the threat, or by his self-betrayal?
4. It appears that only when he is allowed to tell the Tales from the South of his youth, he starts regaining his confidence. Any comments?
Later, Gollum insists he escaped from Mordor by himself. But despite Gandalf’s claim that “those who pass the gates of Barad-dur do not return” (‘A Journey in the Dark’) – “Frodo felt a strange certainty that in this matter Gollum was not so far from the truth as might be suspected... For one thing, he noted that Gollum used I, and that seemed usually to be a sign, on its rare appearances, that some remnants of old truth and sincerity were for the moment on top.”
5. laerasea thought otherwise, that the ‘I’ is talking about Smeagol alone, while Gollum is still lying. What do you think?
Frodo suspects him, and mentions Aragorn as a source for his doubts. And then, all the conversation bogs down: “But the name of Aragorn had put Gollum into a sullen mood. He had all the injured air of a liar suspected when for once he has told the truth, or part of it.”
6. What does Gollum remember against Aragorn?
7. What effect does Tolkien achieve by this description of how a policeman, for instance, would have seen Gollum?
The last moment I want to consider is Gollum’s answering Sam. He’s cross, that’s true; but the worst he says is “Not nice hobbit, not sensible”.
8. Considering the fact that Sam is undermining his beautiful plan, and might be suspecting him – shouldn’t we expect a worse outburst? After all, this very chapter he slipped badly in mentioning to Frodo his desire for the Ring, and probably when mentioning the Silent Watchers – why keep his calm now? Doesn’t he hate Sam’s guts?
Let’s consider: in the debate Sam overheard last chapter, the worst Gollum said was “Make the other hobbit, the nasty suspicious hobbit, make him crawl, yes, gollum!” Not exactly a murder plan, and after all – Frodo made Smeagol crawl, didn’t he? On the stair of Cirith Ungol, he nearly repents after looking at both of them. Even in Shelob’s Lair, while attacking Sam from behind, he doesn’t express such vehement hate: “But he’s got you, you nassty filthy little sneak!” – after all, ‘sneak’ is the name Sam called him!
I wonder about Gandalf’s words in ‘The Shadow of the Past’: “It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things. But that, of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end – unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.”
9. Could that refer also to Sam’s voice? The voice in definitely kind, and he has at close hand an object for kindness (unlike Bilbo).
It seems that Gollum has ambivalent feelings towards both Frodo and Sam. But however, as Sam says in ‘The Stairs of Cirith Ungol’: “I don’t doubt he’d hand me over to Orcs as gladly as kiss his hand”. Sam is sure Gollum hates him; and it is through his eyes that we read book IV.
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jul 11 2008, 4:02pm
Post #2 of 5
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Given Gollum's fear for the fate of the Ring, in particular his desire to ensure that Sauron does not get it, I would come to the conclusion that Gollum realizes now what the Ring is and what its true powers are that he did not know of while he wielded it in his centuries under the Misty Mountains. He has begun to think of what he could do if he had the Ring again, not just to become invisible when he desires!
Dark Lord Gollum would be just as pathetic as Gollum without the Ring - he could hardly lord his power over people even to the extent that Frodo can (and does) lord it over Gollum. Still, Gollum now understands the Ring, and why Sauron wants it...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Half-elven
Jul 11 2008, 4:45pm
Post #3 of 5
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Yes, and how did Gollum learn this?
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Perhaps Gollum learned the true nature of the Ring from the questions asked by Sauron and Gandalf. Obviously it wasn't just a ring of invisibility they were after. I agree that even in the revised version of The Hobbit there is no sign that the Ring gave Gollum grandiose visions of power.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 13 2008, 4:24pm
Post #4 of 5
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“Keep it, nice master, and be kind to Smeagol. Don’t let Him have it. Or go away, go to nice places, and give it back to little Smeagol.”
1. Is this a Freudian slip? What did Tolkien think of Freud?
Well, there were Freudian slips before Freud! Making the mistake of saying something out loud that you'd meant to keep quiet about didn't begin with Freud, it was just categorized by him. What Tolkien personally thought of Freud I've no idea, but I don't think it matters because this story is definitely set in pre-Freudian days! Of course, there are many elements in LotR that may recall Freudian examples of human psychology, because Freud, like Tolkien, drew a lot of his inspiration from traditional stories.
2. What does the venerable Smeagol mean by calling himself ‘little’? Does this contrast with last chapter’s “Lord Smeagol! Gollum the Great! The Gollum!”? Only Gollum is Great, but how little could a lord be?
Now he's mostly interested in seeming small and unthreatening, so that Frodo won't see his mind. Like Sauron's messenger asking about "the least of rings that Sauron fancies", Gollum is deliberately trying not to sound grandiose because it may help him get the Ring.
3. Is he flustered by the threat, or by his self-betrayal?
He's flustered to find out the Frodo isn't the pushover he thought he was!
4. It appears that only when he is allowed to tell the Tales from the South of his youth, he starts regaining his confidence. Any comments?
Yes it's interesting how he becomes so authoritative as he explains the history and geography of the southern lands to the hobbits. He knows this stuff - and I think we as readers understand that now Gollum is telling the truth. (Incidentally, I think this section sort of undermines the idea that this chapter is all set in one place - because although that's literally true, in imagination we travel to Minas Morgul and beyond.)
5. laerasea thought otherwise, that the ‘I’ is talking about Smeagol alone, while Gollum is still lying. What do you think?
Gollum is such an ambiguous character, it's very hard to say. Frodo seems to think that 'I' represents the 'sane' Gollum, as opposed to the schizophrenic one.
6. What does Gollum remember against Aragorn?
"He will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle. Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his teeth. I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood." (Aragorn in The Council of Elrond)
7. What effect does Tolkien achieve by this description of how a policeman, for instance, would have seen Gollum?
The "injured air" is almost exactly the same reaction he has with Faramir. There too he feels wrongly accused because he wasn't actually doing anything bad at the time. He's full of self-pity and self-justification, and his reaction to any accusation isn't to examine his conscience or own up to anything, but to sulk. That's also the attitude that causes his little spark of repentance to be so easily extinguished on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol.
8. Considering the fact that Sam is undermining his beautiful plan, and might be suspecting him – shouldn’t we expect a worse outburst? After all, this very chapter he slipped badly in mentioning to Frodo his desire for the Ring, and probably when mentioning the Silent Watchers – why keep his calm now? Doesn’t he hate Sam’s guts?
I don't think the Silent Watchers were a slip - that's part of his explanation of how Minas Morgul works. His desire for the Ring forced him to make one slip, but Sam's not as important to Gollum as the Ring is - so I think he's succeeding in hiding his true feelings here. He's more interested in winning over Frodo, and saying Sam's words are "not sensible" is more relevant than expressing his opinion of Sam in full!
“It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things. But that, of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end – unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.”
9. Could that refer also to Sam’s voice? The voice in definitely kind, and he has at close hand an object for kindness (unlike Bilbo).
I'm not sure I understand the question. I think Sam does try to be kind to Gollum from time to time - he invites him to share the coney stew, and even invites him to join the conversation about stories, but both times Gollum has gone off on errands of his own. I also think that Sam's evident love for Frodo is one of the things that most inspires Gollum to feel the stirrings of love for him too. It's when Sam is watching Frodo sleep in the fern-brake that Gollum first seems to feel something:
[Sam] shook his head, as if finding words useless, and murmured: "I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no." Gollum returned quietly and peered over Sam's shoulder. Looking at Frodo, he shut his eyes and crawled away without a sound. (Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit)
And then on the Stairs it's when Gollum finds the two hobbits sleeping with Frodo's head in Sam's lap that he finally makes a gesture of tenderness towards Frodo himself. I think it's the sight of Sam's love for Frodo that makes Gollum's briefly come to the fore.
But however, as Sam says in ‘The Stairs of Cirith Ungol’: “I don’t doubt he’d hand me over to Orcs as gladly as kiss his hand”. Sam is sure Gollum hates him; and it is through his eyes that we read book IV.
What Sam is sure of is that Gollum intends to betray them somehow. In the discussion you quote from, Frodo pretty much agrees with him:
"Even if he's up to some wickedness, and I suppose that's not unlikely, I don't think it's that: not to fetch Orcs, or any servants of the Enemy. Why wait till now, and go through all the labour of the climb, and come so near the land he fears? He could probably have betrayed us to Orcs many times since we met him. No, if it's anything, it will be some little private trick of his own that he thinks is quite secret."
"Well, I suppose you're right, Mr. Frodo," said Sam. "Not that it comforts me mightily. I don't make no mistake: I don't doubt he'd hand me over to Orcs as gladly as kiss his hand. But I was forgetting - his Precious. No, I suppose the whole time it's been The Precious for poor Sméagol. That's the one idea in all his little schemes..."
Sam's just being realistic - from Gollum's point of view he's expendable. But Frodo can't just be betrayed to orcs, because then Gollum would lose the Ring.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 11:05am
Post #5 of 5
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Tolkien had read some of Jung, at least.
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Jung is mentioned in the drafts of “On Fairy-stories”.
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