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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Jun 28 2008, 6:48pm
Post #1 of 44
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Could there NOT be a second film?
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Defamer is reporting an interesting bit Guillermo del Toro said this week at the Los Angeles Film Festival, where Hellboy II: The Golden Army will premiere tonight (language warning if you follow the link). When asked about the second movie, Del Toro answered:
We believe there is a second movie, if there isn't, there will not be. If we find it, we will shoot it, but by God, if we do not find it, we will not shoot it. I am anxious to shoot the book, and I'm willing and able to dedicate myself to shooting the [second film].
Guillermo Del Toro also confirmed what material can be used for building the second film:
In the four books that are in the domain of the copyright, there are appendices and ideas and things that can be traced without risk. But I have to be careful not to overstep. We believe there is a way to create this film and make it interesting, but it's too early.
The article goes on to mistakingly say Jackson owns the rights to those four novels, but as we know, the rights are owned by Saul Zaentz and can be used by New Line Cinema through a concession.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 29 2008, 10:04pm)
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Artanis
Nargothrond
Jun 28 2008, 8:30pm
Post #2 of 44
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I can't make up my mind whether I will be disapointed or not if there is no second film. I think I'm perhaps just so happy that there will be a film at all, that the "second" film is a bonus . But, because of all this seeming doubt that there might not be enough material to do a second movie - well that makes me feel that it is too risky. I'm quite sure they know far more than I do about making films - but I wish they would let us know soon what the plan is, two would be wonderful, but my main focus for the next few years is for The Hobbit.
Artanis
Reading: Unfinished Tales -Tolkien, The letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Father Brown Selected Stories - G.K. Chesterton
Listening: LOTR Trilogy Soundrack, The Silmarillion
Random Delights: Tea, bourbon biscuits and TORn
(This post was edited by Artanis on Jun 28 2008, 8:31pm)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 28 2008, 8:55pm
Post #3 of 44
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either in the online chat or on TORn - i.e. that they won't make a second film unless they find a story that works. If they aren't happy with what they can come up with, they won't compromise and make a second film just for the sake of it. I think that's what GDT is basically saying in this interview too. It certainly sounds like they haven't got a storyline pinned down at the moment, but it's not the first time they've told us that.
It also sounds like pretty standard director-speak - I remember hearing Sam Raimi saying the same thing about Spiderman III - that he wouldn't make it if he couldn't find the right story. And didn't Spielberg say it about Indy IV? Both of those got made, and some people would say they didn't find that great a story for either of them!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Jun 28 2008, 9:16pm
Post #4 of 44
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I can easily see where The Hobbit could be two films.....
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if that can't find enough in the appendices for film 2. They could start off, right before the meeting of Gandalf and Thorin at The Prancing Pony. Both Gandalf and Thorin are headed in that direction, both with heavy hearts about Smaug, but for different reasons. This is also in the appendices. So it's fair game.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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leo
Nargothrond
Jun 28 2008, 11:52pm
Post #5 of 44
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Interesting... I hope they will make it though...
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There is plenty of material there. Recently, I've been pondering the idea of the two movies overlapping each other a lot (The Hobbit would follow the events in the book, Film 2 would follow Gandalf at the times he left Thorin and company). I guess it could be like Clint Eastwoods movies, where he did the same story from two points of view...
Anyway, that would work really well I think. But obviously only if they make two films ;-)
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merklynn
Menegroth
Jun 29 2008, 12:27am
Post #6 of 44
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I've been suggesting this for a while...
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I don't mean to be cynical, but based off my experience with movies that never made it to fruition, I have had serious doubts about the second film for a while and mentioned it here. My first inkling was during the live chat with PJ and GDT in which Guillermo made a point that if they can't find the emotional worth of the second film, then they won't do it. Now these latest comments further weaken the ground on which the second film stands.
Its not that I don't want there to be a second film, I actually think it would be great, even if it is not as strong as the LOTR and TH in story. But that's just the thing. They (GDT and particularly PJ and Fran Walsh (the latter two seemingly the motivators behind the idea)) need to lock on to story worth telling. And the only things Tolkien was concerned enough to cover from this period in any depth were the chapters in the Appendixes. If they can not find enough "emotional" point to telling such a story then its not going to eventuate because the result is going to be cheap and be a meandering documentary type film.
We have discussed the possibilities for the plot of the Second Film many times here in these forums. I can't help but feel the amount of maneuvering that will be necessary to allow particular events to coincide will be too forced. And all that is really left that occurs in a more wholesome manner are the complete tales spun in the Appendixes such as Durin's Bane, which is really a long history of the Dwarves leading up to Gandalf machinations regarding the White Council, Erebor and Dol Guldur. This is not really substance for a film, because substance comes from an emotional connection through which to tell the story, namely characters. And Durin's Folk does not contain an emotional heart. Aragorn and Arwen does have an emotional heart, but twisting and contorting other events to fit around this story, as well as covering some ground already covered in LOTR throws the point of this story into question too. Exactly how much new material can you create while remaining true to the spirit of Tolkien?
And remember, Tolkien didn't write a story between TH and LOTR.
Maybe this was deliberate, and maybe he simply ran out of time to cover the many things he would have liked to... but I think he was happy with things as they were. So what place does a fan fictional interquel have? I would love to see the further adventures of the people of Middle-earth on film, but I think the more that PJ and GDT dig into this concept they will hit roadblocks on both story, and integrity to the Middle-earth mythos.
I have been very dubious about the second film and I remain so.
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Most importantly, do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Times Online." - Buddha muses over coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit
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Buchanicus
Menegroth
Jun 29 2008, 12:36am
Post #7 of 44
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That's what I was thinking too.
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I think GDT's comments about only making a second film if the story is there is more about addressing the issue over concern of what the film is exactly going to be. There is no "5th" book obviously, but it seems that he is just trying to assure "fans" that this movie is not just going to be a bunch of made-up filler. I think what leo said in the previous post about following Gandalf after he leaves the company is right along the lines of what to expect at least part of the second film. Keeping The Hobbit movie like the Hobbit book is, a single narrative. That way the second film can follow Gandalf and what he does while he's gone and then make the connections to LOTR that they want to make. I think there is plenty of material from references in the books, the appendix and the film's themselves to create a great movie.
So yeah, i think that comment was more about soothing possible fears and concerns than anything else. But it's pretty common knowledge thta both PJ and GDT are "quality" guys and they aren't just going to put any old thing out just to make two films instead of just one.
TORn member formally known as ryan1976.
(This post was edited by Buchanicus on Jun 29 2008, 12:40am)
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diedye
Hithlum
Jun 29 2008, 3:20am
Post #8 of 44
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But he seems to believe that there *is* a second movie to be made...
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From FearNet:
When asked what direction he would take with the film, he answered, "“Visually, I have many things planned that are incredibly beautiful and things that you have never seen before. In terms of the story telling…the idea is to be as faithful as I can to the experience that I had reading it when I was 11. It’s not by any stretch of the imagination all one tone, it starts lighter and it ends up darker and melancholic and there’s a certain loss of innocence. And I think visually I plan to do a lot of stuff that is, I hope, ground breaking."
When asked about the plans of a proposed second film, he responded, "Right now its all speculation. The idea right now is that it will form like a ramp up…like expanding the mythology a little bit and in that we have to be very careful. It has to be done as carefully as possible. I think that if there wasn’t a second film in mind, we wouldn’t do it. The fact that we’re attempting it is because we believe there is. The idea is to add to the mythology of the trilogy and the end of The Hobbit."
He seems fairly confident that there is enough material there to warrant a second movie. My guess is that they're mining the Sil, the Appendices and the Lost Road.
R.I.P. 
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Patty
Elvenhome
Jun 29 2008, 3:34am
Post #9 of 44
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I very much hope there is a second "bridge" movie...
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and I believe there is enough in the appendices to make such a movie a reality. This will be the last Middle-earth film that can be made, because of the fact that the storylines from the Sil are not available. I hope advantage is taken of this last opportunity. Not for the studios to make more money, but for us fans to get our last bit of available Middle-earth.
Hanging out with the Lonely Isle elves.
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Nimloth
Menegroth
Jun 29 2008, 4:37am
Post #10 of 44
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and I think there will be. The studio is ultimately out to make a good profit and with the huge popularity of LOTR trilogy as a forerunner, two movies will make more money than one. Or is my thinking too simplistic?
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leo
Nargothrond
Jun 29 2008, 11:37am
Post #11 of 44
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I think there is only one story /really/ worth telling...
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... and that is Gandalf's. Really, his work in all the years between The Hobbit and LOTR is what defined his character. Always wandering around, always working to unite the people of Middle-earth, to give them hope etc. There is a good quote in LOTR somewhere, I just can't remember it right now.
A movie on his story in those years, would not only be interesting but it would make his arch in LOTR much stronger.
Really, if it isn't going to be Gandalf, then I don't know who else. Aragorn's story is interesting, but was really covered quite thoroughly in the LOTR movies. There is not much to add there. But with Gandalf, there is a whole story about him discovering Sauron in Mirkwood, trying to gather support to drive him out, seeing that plan fail (and essentiallly thus missing the first chance to get rid of Sauron, making the events in LOTR neccesary, there is a guilt-storyline here that could be interesting...), etc. etc.
Anyway, just my two cents...
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 29 2008, 11:57am
Post #12 of 44
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This is an idea I've always liked
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Recently, I've been pondering the idea of the two movies overlapping each other a lot (The Hobbit would follow the events in the book, Film 2 would follow Gandalf at the times he left Thorin and company).
The "hobbit's-eye" film could be a little lighter in tone, and then the same time-period could be covered in the second film from the perspective of Gandalf and the Council, with a darker feel and more emphasis on the battles. But we could still get little glimpses of Bilbo, perhaps, from time to time, so that we see his adventure from this new perspective and see how it fits in to a bigger world that Bilbo knew nothing about. The first film would have the death of Smaug and Bilbo's return home as its climax and resolution. The second could focus its ending on a final battle, perhaps the Battle of Five Armies if a way could be found to complete Bilbo's story in the first film without it (it's not central to Bilbo's story, really - the tension over the Arkenstone could happen without the battle as a background). What do you think? Could that work?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jun 29 2008, 12:33pm
Post #13 of 44
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First and foremost, I think The Hobbit is a great work that deserves a great film.
As enticing as the 'bridge film' and dovetailing 'GdT-The Hobbit' with the LOTR film franchise might be, this adds multiple levels of difficulty to doing right by Tolkien's little gem of a book.
When I first tried to frame a 2-Film version of the story, I suggested ending Film 1 at the restoration of Erebor or maybe just showing Bilbo departing Erebor with Gandalf to return home. cut the return journey and the visit from Balin. The Film 2 briefly show his return journey and follow the intertwined plot avalanche (Balin, Saruman, Gollum, Aragorn mostly) that is set off by the Bilbo's return to the Shire.
In my scenario, if Film 2 never materialized, you would still be left with an intact version of The Hobbit that dovetails well enough with the 'Concerning Hobbits' sequence from Jackson's FOTR.
Except it doesn't. One problem is Balin. He is one of my favorite characters in the book and the character i am most looking forward to in this project. But where he is in the mix of Film 1 and how 'front and center' he is with the emotional heart of the story depends on whether the story wrtiers/editors know if there is a Film 2 and what Balin's role in Film 2 will be. If you lay down a bunch of foreshadowing about Moria that are never lead to anything, then you've compromised the core Hobbit story for...nothing. If you DON'T lay down those markers then Film 2 is starting from a deep disadvantage.
This aside from all the production/logistical stuff that needs to be known up front.
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leo
Nargothrond
Jun 29 2008, 1:34pm
Post #14 of 44
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That's the way I've always approached The Hobbit...
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As a story for Bilbo, set in a larger world that he (and we, at the time we were first reading it) knew nothing about. It'd be nice if the movie would have the same 'feel'.
I would end The Hobbit with the Battle though, and the (now possible) Film 2 should really just focus on Gandalf's story aside from what was shown in The Hobbit. I wouldn't know where to end it though. I suggested in another thread a little while ago that it should end with Gandalf cartwheeling his way into Hobbiton (the beginning of FOTR), but I guess that would be too easy.
Anyways, it is fun thinking about these things!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Jun 29 2008, 2:22pm
Post #15 of 44
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There will be a second film. Most likely directed by GdT, but if he refuses to do so, they will hire someone else, probably for the whole project.
And hey, Guillermo, if you happen to read this, not all of us lawyers are evil, you know. Some of us actually try to be a force for good. I'd hate to think that an artist that I admire hates me, sight unseen.
Edit: I'm presuming that this "defamer' web site accurately quoted you as saying "I hate lawyers." If not, obviously I withdraw my comment.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Jun 29 2008, 2:29pm)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 29 2008, 4:41pm
Post #16 of 44
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As they say, it's the 99% of lawyers who give the rest a bad name... Glad you're one of the 1%! 
There will be a second film. Most likely directed by GdT, but if he refuses to do so, they will hire someone else, probably for the whole project.
This is what I think GDT is specifically saying will not happen. He and PJ, and the new owners of the rights, are apparently all in agreement that they won't make a follow-up film just for the money, if the quality isn't there. Something tells me they will find something they like well enough to film, but I think it's just too cynical to believe that the project would be taken away from GDT if he wouldn't agree to the second film. 99% might assume it would be that way, but I get the impression that this project may have the stature to be the exception to the rule.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 29 2008, 4:43pm)
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jun 29 2008, 4:58pm
Post #17 of 44
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Take the Hobbit up to the ruin of Smaug then start F2 following Gandalf from leaving the company to where the stories merge again at the BoFA? Splits the two climaxes nicely. Or would the BoFA be a mid movie pump and continue on closer to FOTR (allowing for some further role reprisals)? Hmmm...
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carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jun 29 2008, 5:16pm
Post #18 of 44
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Chamber of Marzarbul
The Hobbit (the book) ends with the dwarf kingdom restored and Bilbo retired to Bag End.
Fellowship of the Ring (the film) at the time the film opens. Gollum (of the Hobbit) is practically shacked up in the burial chamber of Balin (of the Hobbit). The Fellowship is formed and proceeds inexorably to that very chamber where, for the only time in the story, all Nine members of the Fellowship including Frodo (wearing the mithril shirt of th Hobbit AND Moria) battle together in the first great CGI battle sequence of the film franchise. Immediately after leaving the chamber, the fellowship is broken with the fall of Gandalf.
Those movements of Gollum and Balin in the intervening years are well document int the appendices, cross the paths of Aragorn, Legolas, Bilbo, Gandalf. each other (?).etc. Their fates resonate with the ringbearer stories.
The road from The Hobbit to The Fellowship (filmwise) leads through the chamber of Marzarbul
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Jun 29 2008, 5:53pm
Post #19 of 44
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Poderoso caballero es Don Dinero
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"Powerful knight is Sir Money" or something along the lines was said by Miguel de Cervantes in Don Quixote. And I absolutely agree with you.
I do not doubt of Mr. Jackson's and Mr. del Toro's artistic integrity, but money is money, and Film 2 is bound to be made. They won't sacrifice USD$1 billion + out of "there wasn't a story worth telling". The rights are there for a fifth movie, and they will be used, no doubt about it.
Unless PJ and GDT have a power in the production we do not know of.
I won't go on to speculate what would happen should they not find a story for movie 2... but I will rather say that they will be smart enough to find something, half because they want to, and half because they know they have to.
Perhaps these lines are just said to relief some pressure over the project, so that when it is announced people say: "Oh they must have come up with something great, because they said there wouldn't be a film 2 if it wasn't good..."
Please don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that is indeed what GDT, but I also know that in Hollywood there is much more to a project than artistic integrity. And I won't say that's necessarily a bad thing either.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Jun 29 2008, 6:32pm
Post #20 of 44
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Maybe all he is saying is they won't make up crap for F2.
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I trust GDT because of what I heard him say about Hellboy on the DvDs. I took him for someone made from the same cloth of Peter Jackson. It was really strange I can't remember what he was saying but both my husband and I said at the same time "He sounds just like Peter.
Remember GDT is a book firster, unlike Peter who saw Ralph Bakshi film and then read the books. Now all I'm saying is GDT has had the world of The Hobbit in his mind first, without influence from any other movie. So I'm thinking he has the film already made in his head for many years. All he has to do now is put it on film. He may find he needs two films to tell the whole story.
I would rather have two movies of The Hobbit than, F2 made up mostly from other people, who's last name isn't Tolkien.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
(This post was edited by Woodyend on Jun 29 2008, 6:35pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Jun 29 2008, 9:31pm
Post #21 of 44
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PJ and GdT do not own the rights, and are under contract
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There will be a second film. Most likely directed by GdT, but if he refuses to do so, they will hire someone else, probably for the whole project.
This is what I think GDT is specifically saying will not happen. He and PJ, and the new owners of the rights, are apparently all in agreement that they won't make a follow-up film just for the money, if the quality isn't there. Something tells me they will find something they like well enough to film, but I think it's just too cynical to believe that the project would be taken away from GDT if he wouldn't agree to the second film. 99% might assume it would be that way, but I get the impression that this project may have the stature to be the exception to the rule.
As Compa pointed out in the first post of this thread, PJ does not own the rights to make The Hobbit, or LOTR, nor does GdT. The rights are mostly owned by Saul Zaentz, which he has licenced to New Line (through Miramax), with MGM retaining some of the rights as well. PJ entered into a contract with New Line and MGM to act as the executive producer of two films, according to the news reports. The news reports suggested that GdT's contract that he signed was to direct two films as well, although I don't recall it being quite as explicit as the reports were of PJ's contract. Obviously without seeing the actual contracts I can't comment comprehensively, but my suspicion is that the contracts require that they make both films. If GdT refuses to do so, one of two things will happen. They will release him from the contract (since refusing to make the second film would be what we call an anticipatory breach), or they will let him make The Hobbit and hire someone else to do the second film. But it doesn't seem like the second option makes much sense since it would be cost effective to film the two movies together as has been discussed, and also would make more sense to have them be stylistically consistent. Unless of course they have PJ direct the second movie. But under no circumstances are New Line and MGM going to pass on the likelihood of a billion plus dollars (once dvd sales and such are factored in).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 29 2008, 9:48pm
Post #22 of 44
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The problem with Defamer is...
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...they are IMO like The Onion, with the difference being: The Onion is almost always funny and always fictional; whereas, The Defamer is only sometimes humourus while making little or no distinction between fact, conjecture and opinion. I would discount anything that was reported only on Defamer, or where the Defamer was the source -- even if it was the truth! IMO, publications like that always have an agenda.
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
(This post was edited by mwirkk on Jun 29 2008, 9:51pm)
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carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jun 29 2008, 9:54pm
Post #23 of 44
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But it doesn't seem like the second option makes much sense since it would be cost effective to film the two movies together as has been discussed, and also would make more sense to have them be stylistically consistent. Unless of course they have PJ direct the second movie.
Now that you mention it, most bridge film scenarios draw from the appendices and would tend to be more stylistically consistent with the LOTR Films and leave The Hobbit to be The Hobbit. Maybe that is another part of what is going on, the emerging Film 2 story is adequate but diverges from The Hobbit tone too much for GdT to consider as 2 parts of a whole.
(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jun 29 2008, 9:56pm)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 29 2008, 9:59pm
Post #24 of 44
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in the online chat:
The idea is to find a compelling way to join THE HOBBIT and FELLOWSHIP and enhance the 5 films both visually an in their Cosmology. There’s omissions and material enough in the available, licensed material to attempt this. The agreement is, however, that the second film must be relevant and emotionally strong enough to be brought to life but that we must try and contain the HOBBIT in a single film.
I took that to mean that they have a legal agreement that they will only make the second film if they can find a "relevant and emotionally strong" story in the material they have. Maybe I misunderstood. How would you read this?
PJ does not own the rights to make The Hobbit, or LOTR, nor does GdT. The rights are mostly owned by Saul Zaentz, which he has licenced to New Line (through Miramax), with MGM retaining some of the rights as well.
I know PJ and GDT don't have the rights to the films, but I understand that Zaentz particularly wants PJ involved, and I'm assuming this means that PJ may have been able to make an agreement to suit his own way of working.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Jun 29 2008, 10:31pm
Post #25 of 44
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in the online chat: The idea is to find a compelling way to join THE HOBBIT and FELLOWSHIP and enhance the 5 films both visually an in their Cosmology. There’s omissions and material enough in the available, licensed material to attempt this. The agreement is, however, that the second film must be relevant and emotionally strong enough to be brought to life but that we must try and contain the HOBBIT in a single film. I took that to mean that they have a legal agreement that they will only make the second film if they can find a "relevant and emotionally strong" story in the material they have. Maybe I misunderstood. How would you read this?  PJ does not own the rights to make The Hobbit, or LOTR, nor does GdT. The rights are mostly owned by Saul Zaentz, which he has licenced to New Line (through Miramax), with MGM retaining some of the rights as well. I know PJ and GDT don't have the rights to the films, but I understand that Zaentz particularly wants PJ involved, and I'm assuming this means that PJ may have been able to make an agreement to suit his own way of working. Unless and until the rights revert back to Zaentz, he has no say about the matter. The contracts are with New Line and MGM.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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