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Artanis
Rohan
Jun 24 2008, 10:39pm
Post #1 of 43
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Tolkien and Americans
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I'm reading The Letter of J.R.R. Tolkien at the moment, and can't help but notice his dislike of Americans. Can anyone fill me in on why that is, I'm not American myself, but am intrigued as to what he has got against them?
Artanis
Reading: Unfinished Tales -Tolkien, The letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Father Brown Selected Stories - G.K. Chesterton
Listening: LOTR Trilogy Soundrack, The Silmarillion
Random Delights: Tea, bourbon biscuits and TORn
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 24 2008, 10:53pm
Post #2 of 43
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He used to get telephone calls at 3 am
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from Americans who didn't pay attention to the time change between the US and England. The questions were legitimate, but the timing was terrible!
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 24 2008, 11:28pm
Post #4 of 43
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that Yank-bashing is practically the British national pastime. Tolkien was by no means unusual, then or now. In fact nicer than many.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 24 2008, 11:47pm
Post #5 of 43
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Tolkien disliked empires -- including the British Empire.
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He saw the British Empire falling apart, and the American Empire taking its place, rivaled only by the Soviet Empire -- and he didn't like any of them. But that doesn't mean he had anything personal against individual Americans. One of Tolkien's good friends at Oxford was Allen Barnett, an American who told stories of barefoot kids stealing tobacco back in Kentucky, stories which may have influenced Tolkien's tales. I think both rangers and wood elves may have been influenced by tales of frontiersmen and Indians, although I have little evidence to back that up. But such stories had been wildly popular in England since James Fenimore Cooper wrote The Last of the Mohicans.
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Anorien
Rohan
Jun 25 2008, 1:18am
Post #6 of 43
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From what I understand, it was how Americans started obsessing with Lord of the Rings. They would where shirts that said Frodo still lives and come up with songs about it. Granted this happened in other countries but it was mainly seen here. I think Tolkien just felt that people were seeing it the wrong way and not enjoying it the way he thought people would. Drugs of course didnt help either. It was the sixties, what can I say, I wasn't even around. It was nothing personal. I think it was just that we had the most media influence on his stories in some ways that he didn't want. We were also into the whole technology thing that Tolkien despised, which didn't help with our image.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! That's just some of the stuff I've read.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 25 2008, 1:48am
Post #7 of 43
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Tolkien's letters from the 40s and 50s are full of rather unflattering opinions about us.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 25 2008, 2:49am
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relayed a theory that Brits in general did not like the US because they took so long to enter WWII. They came in fresh and cocky at time when the allies were starting to show fatigue. They then emasculated England by supposedly saving their butts. England's long tenur and sense of itself as a super power (probably not a term used back then) was shattered by this.
He went on to say that their gloating over their role in WWII combined with a general lack of acknowledgement of the other countries' (including England, Russia, Canada, et al) contribution to the victory only made sentiments worse.
I believe he raised this point in the first place as a way of explaining why great British lit seems to fall off rapidly after the 1940's (Tolkien and Orwell being notable exceptions of course).
Perhaps Tolkien was a man of his time?
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Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2008, 3:31am
Post #9 of 43
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I have long imagined the North during the second half of the Third Age as being a bit like the American frontier during the mid-18th century (particularly James Fenimore Cooper's version of it). Small communities of European settlers under threat by native peoples, who are viewed as savages that enjoy torture and mutilation; little help from organized authority (and much of that ineffectual or doomed, as in Braddock's ill-fated campaign) which forces them to rely on themselves; savage wars periodically sweeping the region (e.g., the French & Indian War, Pontiac's Rebellion); wandering trappers and traders penetrating into the forests and coming back with furs and tall tales. All of these things have parallels in Tolkien's writing.
The Deerslayer and Strider would have plenty of stories to trade, that's for sure.
We're discussing the BBC Lord of the Rings Radio Play on the Movie Discussion - LOTR board.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
(This post was edited by Idril Celebrindal on Jun 25 2008, 3:34am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 25 2008, 4:55am
Post #10 of 43
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Many Americans still don't "get" time zones.
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I live in Hawaii, whose time zone is GMT-10, EDT-6 or PST-3. We regularly get calls from mainland companies (our friends and relatives have been whipped into shape) in the wee hours of the morning. It's really maddening!
I don't blame him for getting annoyed at it!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 25 2008, 4:55am)
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ArathornJax
Lorien
Jun 25 2008, 7:36am
Post #11 of 43
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perhaps like the Big People who would eventually combine the hobbits into their own culture and race destroying the Jeffersonian ideal of the independent yeohobbit/farmer and thus destroy the agrarian lifestyle that brought peace and long living happiness. Bad Big People and Bad Americans (though in reality Britain had undergone the industrial revolution during the late 1700's and throughout the 1800's).
Perhaps were like Orcs, larger then hobbits, ugly with no redeeming graces that anyone desires and serving the technology destined to destroy the agrarian way of life.
Americans like to think of themselves as the Dunedain (probably Elves too) were they come from the west with a higher culture and as saviors of men from themselves. I mean we save Britain and Europe twice, right in terms of winning a war and in rebuilding from the second one (Marshall Plan). In our pride like the Dunedan we remind those in Europe of our dedication to expect people to be oh so grateful when in reality we drive them away since that was over 60 years ago and thus to many in Europe, I think we just stink . . .
so in the end, we are really just skunks who stink and I'm sure Tolkien, like the rest of us, disliked the smell of skunk so he may have disliked Americans. Noticed he put a fox in the FOTR and not a skunk.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
Come over to the LOTR Movie Thread and discuss the 1981 BBC Adaptation of the LOTR.
(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Jun 25 2008, 7:38am)
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 25 2008, 10:09am
Post #12 of 43
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I like that :D I also imagine he wasn't to keen on the U.S. involvement of WWI in terms of how it affected him and his friends/compatriots and then WWII.
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Jun 25 2008, 10:10am)
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Smeagirl/Girllum
Gondor
Jun 25 2008, 11:41am
Post #13 of 43
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My husband is always getting calls around midnight, from his friends in CA who don't remember that it's three hours earlier there.
"There was something in this tree that I have never seen before," he said. "It was not an orc. It fled as soon as I touched the tree-stem. It seemed to be wary, and to have some skill in trees, or I might have thought that it was one of you hobbits."
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Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven
Jun 25 2008, 2:13pm
Post #14 of 43
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For a Tolkien/Fenimore Cooper combination
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try Lois McMaster Bujold's Sharing Knife series -- the books are subtitled, "Beguilement", "Legacy", "Passage", and next spring's "Horizon". Inspired by Tolkien's stories of the rangers caring for the hobbits, she put her own unique twist on the situation, explored it from a few different angles, and set it in a fantasy America. It's Romance with a capital R.
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 25 2008, 2:22pm
Post #15 of 43
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in childhood Tolkien was very taken by Fenimore Cooper, and Hiawatha as well.
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jun 25 2008, 2:23pm
Post #16 of 43
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Huh???
"so in the end, we are really just skunks who stink and I'm sure Tolkien, like the rest of us, disliked the smell of skunk so he may have disliked Americans. Noticed he put a fox in the FOTR and not a skunk. "
Have you been at the Gaffer's home brew???
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Elberbeth
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2008, 3:08pm
Post #17 of 43
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We Canadians are often guilty of that as well
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but it's more due to our proximity to the US and a fear of being consumed/subsumed by it. But we might be willing to trade water and oil for being left alone.
"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jun 25 2008, 3:09pm
Post #18 of 43
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since some people seem to discredit anything from Daniel Grotta *eyes RR*, but he quotes from a letter dated December 21, 1947 which thanks the Barnetts in great detail for their generous gifts of food from America.
This is then followed by a small, later quote:
After receiving another food parcel, Tolkien wrote, "Americans really are the warmest-hearted people in the world.
I only hope you are right in imagining we should prove so kind in reversed conditions (as a people, I mean, and apart from ourselves, personally).
Perhaps we should, for beneath the surface frictions, and the less kind and more ill-mannered scribblings, there endures a deep sense of kinship."
(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Jun 25 2008, 3:12pm)
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 25 2008, 4:13pm
Post #19 of 43
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I had no idea there had been inspired works like those! *scribbles titles* Thank you :D
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 25 2008, 5:47pm
Post #21 of 43
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In Tolkien's letters, he disparages American arrogance, wanting to make over the entire world in our image. (And I don't blame him. We are arrogant, and it causes us more problems than we'd care to admit.) This does not mean he disliked anything to do with America. He disparaged the faults in any culture he encountered, including his own, and including those which he invented. Sometimes he would sound vehemently against some place or person or organization, and in the next breath praise some different aspect of the same place or person or organization. He had extremely complicated opinions, sometimes caricatured in ill-fitting black-and-white statements that contradicted each other. To get his real views on anything, one has to step back from examining the pixels of his statements under a magnifying glass, and look at the larger picture that they contribute to. He did not make this easy.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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jnett
Bree
Jun 25 2008, 5:49pm
Post #22 of 43
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Towards the end of his life....
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Tolkien was always critical throughout his life and it grew worse as he aged... Not without reason, he had critics of his own and they were ruthless. The society he wanted to be a part of, rejected his writings as mere trash. With the Americans, it was a love/hate relationship. He liked the recognition and the sales his books had received …but why did if have to come from those Dreadful Americans 
It did not help matters when C.S. Lewis showed up with an American Bride.
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Marionette
Rohan
Jun 25 2008, 6:47pm
Post #23 of 43
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I am American too.
Am I in the same package so? Unfortunately I am XD
"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
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Annael
Immortal
Jun 25 2008, 8:18pm
Post #24 of 43
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when the Brits ruled half the world, everyone hated them. And let's not forget the Romans:
Reg: They've bled us white, the b*st*rds. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yes.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: All right, Stan. Don't belabour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist: And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias: And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
(more general murmurs of agreement)
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
Xerxes: Brought peace?
Reg: (very angry) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Peace, yes... shut up!
Our similarities bring us to a common ground; our differences allow us to be fascinated by each other.
- Tom Robbins
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jun 25 2008, 8:20pm)
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Artanis
Rohan
Jun 25 2008, 8:21pm
Post #25 of 43
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I can sort of understand anyone being a bit upset at having phonecalls in the middle of the night!
One of the letters I read just a few days ago was addressed to his son, basically complaining about all the "Stars and Stripes" in the local pubs, and how glad he was that he had found a pub where there were none.  I was suprised by this as in his letters he comes across quite mild mannered and "nice".
Artanis
Reading: Unfinished Tales -Tolkien, The letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Father Brown Selected Stories - G.K. Chesterton
Listening: LOTR Trilogy Soundrack, The Silmarillion
Random Delights: Tea, bourbon biscuits and TORn
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