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Laerasëa
Tol Eressea
Jun 23 2008, 3:25am
Post #1 of 41
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The Taming of Smeagol: Part One
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*Sorry, guys, I'm not sure how much I'm going to be in for the first part of tomorrow, so the first post for this discussion is coming a little early. Thanks!*
Welcome to this week's discussion on The Taming of Smeagol! I'm organizing this week by different themes that I've found in this chapter; each day I'll post one or two new themes, depending on how important or big a theme is. One thing about this chapter- despite being the title character and an incredibly important figure overall, Smeagol just does not appear until pretty much the end of the chapter (not counting Frodo and Sam noticing a pair of eyes), so he does not get too much mention in this post, and it's possible that I might have another one like this, although it certainly won't happen often. I'm also planning on wrapping up the week with an open discussion, including a little focus on Smeagol and his role as a catalyst in the story.
Until then, I'll just put quotes followed by questions and then some thoughts that I've come up with, at the end of each post. Hope you enjoy this week!
So for today's theme, I decided on the idea of hope. (it seemed optimistic)
I’m starting at the point where Frodo and Sam have reached a sort of ravine, which they have to climb down in order to get across. Sam promptly decides that he is going first.
Before Frodo could stop him, he sat down, swung his legs over the brink, and twisted around, scrabbling with his toes for a foothold. It is doubtful that he ever did anything braver in cold blood, or more unwise. (*note*- I love that pun)
’No, no! Sam, you old ass!’ said Frodo. ‘You’ll kill yourself for certain, going over like that without even a look to see what you make for! Come back!’
….
‘Better wait till morning and more light’ (said Sam)
‘No! Not if I can help it!,’ said Frodo with a sudden strange vehemence. ‘I grudge every hour, every minute. I’m going down to try it out. Don’t you follow till I come back or call!’
1. Why is it better for Frodo to go first down into the ravine, as opposed to Sam?
But either the darkness had grown complete, or else his eyes had lost their sight. All was black about him. He wondered if he had been struck blind…..(Sam) cast an end (of the rope) to his master. The darkness seemed to lift from Frodo’s eyes, or else he sight was returning. He could see the grey line as it hung down, and he thought it had a faint silver sheen.
2. Why does Frodo go blind? Does the rope have to do with his sight returning? Is it one of those “magical Elven properties” that the rope is of the exact length that they need?
‘Better luck if I’d thought of it sooner,’ said Sam. ‘Maybe you remember them putting the ropes in the boats, as we started off: in the Elvish country. I took a fancy to it, and I stowed a coil in my pack. Years ago, it seems.’
3. Why does Sam feel connected to the rope? Was it any property of the rope that made him previously forget about it?
4. What do you think about the type of hope that Sam seems have? Almost every positive comment he makes is related to the Elves; he comments on how the lembas are better than nothing (although he admits he wouldn’t mind a change), how the stars seem to “cheer the heart” (“Elvish, they are, somehow”), and how the he “took a fancy” to the rope, and it “looks sort of silver in the dark.” How does this compare with his complaining from that is fairly constant in the rest of the chapter?
The hurrying darkness, now gathering great speed, rushed up from the East and swallowed the sky. There was a dry splitting crack of thunder right overhead. Searing lightning smote down onto the hills. Then came a blast of savage wind, and with it, mingling with its roar, there came a high shrill shriek…..out here in the waste its terror was far greater: it pierced them with the cold blades of horror and despair, stopping heart and breath.
….Clear sky was growing in the East once more. The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil, upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas TIrith and the threat of war….But here, over the desert and the reeking marshes the deep blue sky of evening opened once more, and a few pallid stars appeared, like small white holes in the canopy above the crecent moon.
5. Lastly, if anything, what does the Ringwraith have to do with the storm? Why does the storm come and pass so quickly? Does any of the “Elven magic” have anything to do with countering the storm, and making it go away faster?
Random thoughts on this theme: I began rereading the chapter with the idea of Sam being the source of hope for Frodo, but as I actually began to count and record comments from either of them as being positive or negative, I realized that Sam complains much more than Frodo does throughout the chapter. Reading through it again, however, I came up with another idea- most of Frodo’s “positive” comments involve reaching Mordor, and Sam’s positive comments are almost always on remembering the Elves. So which is more hopeful?
One thing that I thought of also was the idea that I kept in mind reading Homer’s Illiad and Odyssey once- the idea of kleos and nostos, which are old Greek terms usually used in epics. Kleos is the glory of succeeding in a mission and overcoming the obstacles in the way of that mission. Nostos is the Greek word for homecoming: the “glory” in a successful return home. In the Greek terminology, they are both types of glory; but if we take them in terms of hope, then I think they’re applicable to Sam and Frodo. Kleos might be the kind of hope Frodo has, while Nostos is better used to describe Sam.
One other interesting thing I noted was that I counted eight paragraphs with at least one mention of evening or nightfall (not including references to stormclouds gathering, and not including dialogue), and I could not find any with references to the dawn breaking, or morning, which is usually symbolic of a fresh start, optimism, and good things beginning. In this chapter, Frodo and Sam are always trying to complete a certain amount of travel before the dark, which according to Tolkien’s writing is always approaching.
Any other thoughts?
********************************
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying. - Oscar Wilde
This is a work of fiction. All the characters in it, human and otherwise, are imaginary, excepting only certain of the fairy folk, whom it might be unwise to offend by casting doubts on their existence. Or lack thereof. -Neil Gaiman
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. - Mark Twain
You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway. - Walt Disney
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Louis Hector Berlioz
Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. -C.S. Lewis
(This post was edited by laerasea on Jun 23 2008, 3:30am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 4:24am
Post #2 of 41
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1. Why is it better for Frodo to go first down into the ravine, as opposed to Sam?
Frodo is taking a leadership role here, while Sam is in his comfortable slot as servant. Officers in WWI had such servants, and the relationship between servant and master was certainly a basis for Tolkien's Frodo/Sam dynamic, at least until Cirith Ungol. As a leader, it's appropriate that Frodo go first, especially since Sam is throwing caution to the winds. It's Frodo's job to maintain focus on the aim of the quest. And it's Sam's job to worry about supplies, food, and other practical issues, hence his grumbling.
2. Why does Frodo go blind? Does the rope have to do with his sight returning? Is it one of those “magical Elven properties” that the rope is of the exact length that they need?
3. Why does Sam feel connected to the rope? Was it any property of the rope that made him previously forget about it?
To be honest, I hadn't focussed on Frodo's blind moment before. It is suddenly dark, but since Sam can see Frodo, it can't be that dark. Re-reading the passage now, I'm sure the blindness was a result of the Nazgul overflight, and it's the Rope that relieved it.
The Rope certainly has Elvish qualities: it glows in the dark, it's always the right length, its knots hold when they need to and release on command. And it's that Elvishness that makes Sam feel an emotional as well as a physical connection to it.
5. Lastly, if anything, what does the Ringwraith have to do with the storm? Why does the storm come and pass so quickly? Does any of the “Elven magic” have anything to do with countering the storm, and making it go away faster?
The storm definitely seems associated with Mordor, but whether it's specifically the Ringwraith or Sauron providing some cover for him is unclear; Curious is our weatherman here.
This is presumably the Nazgul that had the meeting with Grishnákh.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 2:40pm
Post #3 of 41
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1. Why is it better for Frodo to go first down into the ravine, as opposed to Sam?
Frodo seems to have a bit of an idea about climbing. Sam has none - he's convinced he'll fall, so he tries to go first thinking that at least then he can't bring Frodo down with him. Frodo sees from Sam's clueless effort ("you old ass ... going over like that without even a look to see what you make for!") that he will have to take the lead, and show Sam what to do.
2. Why does Frodo go blind? Does the rope have to do with his sight returning? Is it one of those “magical Elven properties” that the rope is of the exact length that they need?
There's a flash of lightning, so his blindness may be just a case of being temporarily dazzled. But there's always the possibility that the Nazgul had something to do with it. Conversely, his sight might have returned naturally as the dazzlement faded, or it could have been helped by the Elven properties of the rope. The narrator never tells us the answer to such questions, and lets us make up our own minds!
3. Why does Sam feel connected to the rope?
I didn't get the impression that he did feel connected to the rope - just that he'd taken a fancy to it long ago, and had forgotten about it in the meantime. The fancy was based on the fact that knowledge of ropes was "in the family", as I think he mentioned to the Elf back in Lothlorien, and explains again to Frodo in this chapter. But that knowledge was about making ropes, and I suppose, using them for mundane tasks. Using them for climbing was not something that had ever crossed his mind.
Was it any property of the rope that made him previously forget about it?
I think it was just that he'd had no call to use it before, and as he says, the time he picked it up seemed "years ago". And, having no experience at all with climbing (fairly typical for a hobbit, I suppose), the idea of using a rope to help climb had not occurred to him.
4. What do you think about the type of hope that Sam seems have? Almost every positive comment he makes is related to the Elves; he comments on how the lembas are better than nothing (although he admits he wouldn’t mind a change), how the stars seem to “cheer the heart” (“Elvish, they are, somehow”), and how the he “took a fancy” to the rope, and it “looks sort of silver in the dark.” How does this compare with his complaining from that is fairly constant in the rest of the chapter?
I don't think Sam is feeling much hope at this point. He seems to have returned to his default hobbit mode, missing home comforts, fearing heights, and generally out of his element. I think that in this early part of Book IV, Tolkien is establishing the natural relationship between the two hobbits, with Frodo still pretty confident himself and Sam drawing his own strength from Frodo, as well as from thoughts of the Elves, as you say. This is a kind of baseline from which we can see the changes that occur in both hobbits. It's really only as Frodo's strength fails that Sam learns to draw strength from his own hope - but even so, I think it's always in Frodo that he finds the inspiration for his courage. As in this chapter, when he tries to climb down first so as not to endanger Frodo, and then later as he leans dangerously far over the edge to try to help him, he finds his hope and strength in helping Frodo, and that really is what takes him all the way to the end of the journey.
5. Lastly, if anything, what does the Ringwraith have to do with the storm? Why does the storm come and pass so quickly? Does any of the “Elven magic” have anything to do with countering the storm, and making it go away faster?
Who can tell? You can believe that this is a perfectly natural storm, or you can believe that there are forces for good and evil warring overhead. Nobody is going to tell us which it is, but it's so much more satisfying to imagine the supernatural explanation, isn't it?
One other interesting thing I noted was that I counted eight paragraphs with at least one mention of evening or nightfall...
Nice observation! This would certainly help to reinforce the oppressive sense of time running out, as the hobbits wander around lost.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Menelwyn
Rohan
Jun 23 2008, 3:08pm
Post #4 of 41
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not entirely on your questions as such
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2. Why does Frodo go blind? Does the rope have to do with his sight returning? Interesting--somehow I had always thought that his temporary blindness had to do with the lightning, that it had messed up his night vision or something. But elizabeth is right: if that were the case Sam would have gone blind too. So Frodo's loss of vision would seem to be connected to the Nazgul, and it would likewise seem that the rope has something to do with the return of his sight. Not sure what, but there does seem to be a connection.
But here, over the desert and the reeking marshes the deep blue sky of evening opened once more, and a few pallid stars appeared, like small white holes in the canopy above the crecent moon.
Random thought--this reminded me of the time when Sam sees the star in Mordor.
Now on to your broader topics, and these various issues of hope, optimism, and Sam's connection with the Elves.
At this point in the story, Sam seems more concerned with the practicalities of their mission, rather than with its ultimate end. There is little reason to be optimistic about the day-to-day progress of their journey, regardless of what the final outcome might be. Sam has every reason to complain when he compares their present situation to what he has known in the past. His hope needs to mature over the course of the story: the deeper hope is in ultimate victory, despite the evils encountered along the way. Frodo may have that hope at this point in the story, but he loses it later, and Sam gains it, giving him the strength he needs to support Frodo on their way through Mordor. I'm not saying this terribly well; it's thoughts that I've been having for a while now and can't completely put into words the way I want to.
As for Sam's connection with the Elves, well, I would say that that is a sign of faith rather than hope, not that I can at all express the difference between those. For Sam, the Elves have an almost religious significance, as do the things they produced (lembas, rope). They are a reminder of goodness in a bad place, and with faith in that, great things can be accomplished.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 4:05pm
Post #5 of 41
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I had always thought that his temporary blindness had to do with the lightning, that it had messed up his night vision or something. But elizabeth is right: if that were the case Sam would have gone blind too.
Don't forget that Sam was at the top of the cliff, and may have been able to protect his eyes when the storm hit (he certainly covers his head when he hears the Nazgul, although that seems to have been a little after the lightning). Frodo was stuck splayed out against the side of the cliff, so would get the full force of the lightning's brightness, plus its reflection off the rock in front of his face. On the other hand, the blindness certainly could have something to do with the Nazgul, but then we'd still have to explain why it would blind just Frodo and not Sam. Which means we then have to theorize that the Ring is involved too... Is this another aspect of the Ring's powers? Certainly these are possible explanations, and ones that must have occurred to Frodo and Sam themselves. But they don't know the answer, and neither do we.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 23 2008, 4:45pm
Post #6 of 41
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1. Why is it better for Frodo to go first down into the ravine, as opposed to Sam?
Because it’s better that someone stronger is up there supporting the rope, and can pull Frodo up if something goes wrong. Besides, any monster trailing them will eat Sam first.
Then again, any monster at the bottom would eat Frodo first.
2. Why does Frodo go blind?
Stress. Hysterical blindness and muteness, as well as stuff like paralysis, nightmares, tummy-aches, and uncontrollable shaking were symptoms quite often seen in the trenches of World War I. (Not to mention having moments of “strange vehemence” where one did “unwise” acts of bravery in “cold blood”.)
Does the rope have to do with his sight returning?
It’s a lifeline to Sam.
Is it one of those “magical Elven properties” that the rope is of the exact length that they need?
Either that or synchronicity.
3. Why does Sam feel connected to the rope?
He comes from a long line of ropemakers.
Was it any property of the rope that made him previously forget about it?
Probably the pain of his own broken dreams. First-born brother Hamfast got to go off and make rope. Poor second-born Sam had to stay home and become a gardener.
4. What do you think about the type of hope that Sam seems have? Almost every positive comment he makes is related to the Elves; he comments on how the lembas are better than nothing (although he admits he wouldn’t mind a change), how the stars seem to “cheer the heart” (“Elvish, they are, somehow”), and how the he “took a fancy” to the rope, and it “looks sort of silver in the dark.”
It’s the hope of having seen the impossible become possible. He never thought he’d ever see the Elves, but now that impossible dream has come true, why not others? Like, say, actually surviving this suicide mission and going home?
How does this compare with his complaining from that is fairly constant in the rest of the chapter?
"There's a killer on the road.
His brain is squirmin' like a toad.
Take a long holiday
Let your children play.
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die.
Killer on the road."
-Jim Morrison, Riders On The Storm
The presence of Gollum would turn even Pollyanna Whittier into Oscar the Grouch.
5. Lastly, if anything, what does the Ringwraith have to do with the storm?
Ask Jim Morrison.
Why does the storm come and pass so quickly?
So does the Ringwraith.
Does any of the “Elven magic” have anything to do with countering the storm, and making it go away faster?
More like Rohirrim magic.
One thing that I thought of also was the idea that I kept in mind reading Homer’s Illiad and Odyssey once- the idea of kleos and nostos, which are old Greek terms usually used in epics. Kleos is the glory of succeeding in a mission and overcoming the obstacles in the way of that mission. Nostos is the Greek word for homecoming: the “glory” in a successful return home. In the Greek terminology, they are both types of glory; but if we take them in terms of hope, then I think they’re applicable to Sam and Frodo. Kleos might be the kind of hope Frodo has, while Nostos is better used to describe Sam.
Yes, Sam is a Greek hero. He goes on a quest, fights a monster, returns home, sets things right, and gets the girl.
While kleos would indeed be applicable to Frodo, I’d think it’s more a case like with Beowulf. Frodo doesn’t shirk from his Destiny. Whether it be for good or ill he is true to his Wyrd. Frodo is the Germanic hero.
One other interesting thing I noted was that I counted eight paragraphs with at least one mention of evening or nightfall (not including references to stormclouds gathering, and not including dialogue), and I could not find any with references to the dawn breaking, or morning, which is usually symbolic of a fresh start, optimism, and good things beginning. In this chapter, Frodo and Sam are always trying to complete a certain amount of travel before the dark, which according to Tolkien’s writing is always approaching.
Well, it worked for Edward Bulwer-Lytton.
And Snoopy.
Any other thoughts?
I like pie.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 6:45pm
Post #7 of 41
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Remember Frodo's wound from Weathertop. It's left him more vulnerable to the Nazgul. We see the effect in the Marshes and at Minas Morgul.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elros
Rivendell
Jun 23 2008, 6:53pm
Post #8 of 41
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I am a movie-firster who has only just recently finished LOTR, so perhaps my perspective is skewed slightly toward Jackson's interpretations, but it seems to me that the combination of the Nazgul overhead and the growing hold the ring has taken on Frodo's mind could have caused his blindness. Frodo himself nearly became a wraith atop Amon Sul, and his encounter with the morgul blade seems to have forged a connection between himself and the nine that Tolkien went out of his way to show never fully healed.
Forgive me for bringing this up in the Reading Room, but in the movies, Frodo's eyes seem to roll back in his head when a Nazgul is near, almost as if he is temporarily on the verge of re-entering the wraithworld. I would think this condition would certainly cause blindness. The passage about Frodo's blindness never struck me as anything significant when I read the book (although as a one-timer, I'm sure I missed about a million things!), but could this have been Jackson's/Walsh's/Boyen's reasoning for Frodo's reactions in the films?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 7:08pm
Post #9 of 41
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Please stick around! You'll learn a lot (even after many times through the books we all still find new insights), and we especially enjoy the insights of newcomers.
Love the nick, by the way!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elros
Rivendell
Jun 23 2008, 7:20pm
Post #10 of 41
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Thanks for the kind introduction, especially a kind introduction from such an esteemed member! I am a long-time lurker who loves reading the insight of those whose intelligence on the subject far exceeds his own. I feel like I just crashed a Mensa meeting by even posting on here. I will say that I particularly love the Reading Room here. Although the movies turned me onto LOTR, they could never match the depth and history provided by the books.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 7:26pm
Post #11 of 41
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Frodo doesn’t shirk from his Destiny. Whether it be for good or ill he is true to his Wyrd.
Achilles is also true to his destiny, and is usually considered the hero of kleos, precisely because he must choose between kleos and nostos, honor and homecoming, and chooses kleos.
But there's an important distinction: Achilles is quite conscious of his reputation, whereas Frodo and Sam don't care a whit about their reputations. Beowulf also cares about his reputation, in a good way. So do Theoden and Eowyn and Eomer in LotR. So did Boromir, to a fault, although his shame may have helped redeem him. All those ancient Heroes cared about their reputation.
There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that drives the hobbits at all, for they grow up in a modern, civilized world where heroism in battle is neither expected nor, generally, honored. The Scouring ironically earns them some honor, even though it is the very least of their achievements in battle, and they saw it as more of a sad nuisance than a battle. It's Tolkien's joke that the hobbits' heroic reputation is mostly based on the Battle of Bywater.
I'm not sure Frodo fits into the ancient definitions of heroism. Frodo is the everyman hero, which is a modern invention. So is Sam, perhaps even more so. They may be among the best of the hobbits, but in Middle-earth that really isn't saying much. The hobbits are right to be humble, just as Gandalf and Aragorn are right to be proud. Ancient heroes were never, as far as I can recall, ordinary men.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 7:33pm
Post #12 of 41
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As far as I can see, the effect of the Nazgul in the Marshes was the same on both Frodo and Sam:
They fell forward, grovelling heedlessly on the cold earth. But the shadow of horror wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them, sweeping the fen-reek with its ghastly wings. And then it was gone, flying back to Mordor ... Frodo and Sam got up, rubbing their eyes, like children wakened from an evil dream... (The Passage of the Marshes)
At Minas Morgul, the Ring is certainly involved, but here the effect is the one that we see a number of times - the Ring tries to tempt Frodo to put it on. The effect of blindness doesn't come up again, as far as I recall, except when Frodo is so far gone that he's "naked in the dark". But that's a different kind of blindness, clearly caused by the effects of the Ring, and Frodo isn't so much blind as dazzled by the fiery vision that he can't get out of his mind.
Perhaps Frodo's blindness in the Emyn Muil is a foreshadowing of this much later sensory collapse. It does seem to be an early sign of his vulnerability. But I think it's important (and deliberate) that we can't really tell what causes it - because things you think you may be imagining can be far more unsettling than things you know for sure.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 23 2008, 7:41pm
Post #13 of 41
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But there's an important distinction: Achilles is quite conscious of his reputation, whereas Frodo and Sam don't care a whit about their reputations.
"I wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into?" asks Samwise.
"I wonder," said Frodo, "But I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale. Take any one that you're fond of. You may know, or guess, what kind of a tale it is, happy-ending or sad-ending, but the people in it don't know. And you don't want them to."
...
"Still I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales. We're in one, of course; but I mean: put into words, you know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards. And people will say: 'Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring!' And they'll say: 'Yes, that's one of my favourite stories, Frodo was very brave, wasn't he dad?' 'Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and that's saying a lot.' "
"It's saying a lot too much." said Frodo, and he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart.
...
"Why Sam," he said, "to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written. But you've left out one of the chief characters: Samwise the stouthearted. 'I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn't they put in more of his talk, dad? That's what I like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam, would he, dad?' "
"Now, Mr. Frodo," said Sam, "you shouldn't make fun. I was serious."
"So was I," said Frodo, "and so I am."
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 23 2008, 7:45pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 7:43pm
Post #14 of 41
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Nice to have you here.
It will be great to have a movie-firster's perspective on the book, so I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts!
Good point about Frodo's rolling eyes in the movies - it certainly shows that he's mesmerized by the Nazgul (and it happens from the very first encounter in the Shire, so it's not an effect of the wound on Weathertop), but Frodo's blindness here on the cliff is after the Nazgul has left and Frodo has otherwise come back to his senses. I'm not saying the Nazgul didn't cause the blindness though - just that we can't tell, because Frodo and Sam didn't know, and we get the story from their perspective.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 7:49pm
Post #15 of 41
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"...I wonder if any song will ever mention it: How Samwise fell in the High Pass and made a wall of bodies round his master." (The Choices of Master Samwise)
He sighed. "What a tale we have been in, Mr. Frodo, haven't we?" he said. "I wish I could hear it told! Do you think they'll say: Now comes the story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom?And then everyone will hush, like we did, when in Rivendell they told us the tale of Beren One-hand and the Great Jewel. I wish I could hear it! And I wonder how it will go on after our part." (The Field of Cormallen)
"...now listen to my lay. For I will sing to you of Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom."
And when Sam heard that he laughed aloud for sheer delight, and he stood up and cried: "O great glory and splendour! And all my wishes have come true!" (The Field of Cormallen)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 8:03pm
Post #16 of 41
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It's good to have new people around: it's surprising how every one brings in his fresh point of view.
And it's even more impressive for you to join the RR after one reading only. Please stay around! There are a few heavyweights around here, but they are all very nice persons.
We all have skewed perspectives, so don't worry about yours.
Enjoy!
P.S. Regarding the content of your post, it's definitely something which could be raised in the Reading Room. I do think quite often things which PJ, Ph. & F. were accused of 'inventing' have got clear inspirations in the books. However, I'm not sure about this specific case - Frodo might be temporarily blinded because of his fall and nothing more, and he seems to have the ability to withstand the Witchking in ch. no. 8 - remembering the Phial of Galadriel is not an 'outside intervention' as heavy as Sam's, and Faramir's shooting the Nazgul in Osgiliath are in the movies.
But I hope I'll be able to consider this point in two weeks' time, when I lead 'The Black Gate is Closed'
"You could too, if you kept your head and followed me carefully" - Frodo
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 8:42pm
Post #17 of 41
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But all of that is outside of the Shire.
[In reply to]
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Their deeds in Mordor earn them no reputation in the Shire whatsoever. Nor do they go on their adventure to win a reputation in the Shire; they know very well from Bilbo that going on an adventure will earn them the wrong kind of reputation back home. Now perhaps they both want to win Bilbo's approval, but that is love, not reputation.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 9:00pm
Post #18 of 41
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1. Why is it better for Frodo to go first down into the ravine, as opposed to Sam?
One can't jump in, assuming he'll get killed. If Frodo succeeds, Sam wil be enheartened.
2. Why does Frodo go blind?
I've answered that in my welcome to Elros.
Does the rope have to do with his sight returning? Is it one of those “magical Elven properties” that the rope is of the exact length that they need?
It's not. It's the same as Frodo's estimate of the height of the cliff.
His chief fear had been that the rope-length would give out while he was still high up, but there was still a good bight in Frodo's hands, when Sam came to the bottom and called up: 'I'm down!'
3. Why does Sam feel connected to the rope?
Sam always keeps things which might be useful (remember his pack's contents in 'The Ring Goes South'). The rope has served him once; he wants to keep it for further use.
Plus, it comes from Galadriel.
Was it any property of the rope that made him previously forget about it?
Well, last time he used Elvish rope was to cross the Celebrant. And he didn't like the experience.
4. What do you think about the type of hope that Sam seems have?
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series I haven't read that book, and copied this quote from elentari 3018's signature (perhaps this might persuade her to delurk?). But if that's the wizard's opinion, I'll take his word for it.
Almost every positive comment he makes is related to the Elves; he comments on how the lembas are better than nothing (although he admits he wouldn’t mind a change), how the stars seem to “cheer the heart” (“Elvish, they are, somehow”), and how the he “took a fancy” to the rope, and it “looks sort of silver in the dark.” How does this compare with his complaining from that is fairly constant in the rest of the chapter?
Almost every negative comment is self-depreciating, often calling upon his Gaffer to supply a denigrating enough comment.
But it's a nice point about the Elves. In some old thread, N.E. Brigand linked us to an essay somewhere about Frodo's having an 'Elvish air', and Sam's love for him seen in that prespective.
5. Lastly, if anything, what does the Ringwraith have to do with the storm? Why does the storm come and pass so quickly? Does any of the “Elven magic” have anything to do with countering the storm, and making it go away faster?
Well, the quote you brought proves it's a part of the dark thought of Sauron.
At first, I thought Elizabeth was simply wrong about the Nazgul; it is going now towards the Emyn Muil, while Grishnakh is dead, killed by the Rohirrim near Fangorn.
But it could be that the wraith went back to Lugburz to report, and was now returning to the appointed rendevous with Grishnakh. Which might explain his returning to Mordor only after the passage of the Marshes, and not noticing the Ring so near.
If I'll follow this thought a bit further - how could Gwaihir patrol Rohan, or help Gandalf cross the river unnoticed, with the Fell Beast nearby? If Saruman hadn't tried to take the prize for himself, or if the Nazgul didn't feel he needn't to report expressly in person, and stayed around to survey the developements - Gandalf would be revealed too early, and perhaps the Nazgul would have intervened and prevented Eomer from destroying the Orcs. Or even take Pippin to Barad-dur (as it was sent to do in less than a week)
I really like this theory. In a nutshell, it says that Sauron failed to win the War at a relatively early stage - because of the treachery and disobedience of one servant, and the slavish lack of gumption and independence the other. A lesson for tyrants.
Any other thoughts?
If I calculate correctly, this is a description of the same night (between the 29th and 30th of February):
The night grew ever colder. Aragorn and Gimli slept fitfully, and whenever they awoke they saw Legolas standing beside them, or walking to and fro, singing softly to himself in his own tongue, and as he sang the white stars opened in the hard black vault above. So the night passed. Together they watched the dawn grow slowly in the sky, now bare and cloudless, until at last the sunrise came. It was pale and clear. The wind was in the East and all the mists had rolled away; wide lands lay bleak about them in the bitter light. The night is black, cold and bitter. But there is hope - and it is summoned by the Elf. And his comrades do watch the sunrise, even if it offers only cold comfort.
"You could too, if you kept your head and followed me carefully" - Frodo
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 23 2008, 9:08pm
Post #19 of 41
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..they *were* thinking of their place in history. And they knew that they had a part to play. And they knew the consequences if they failed to be true to their Wyrd. And those thoughts kept them going.
As for their reputations at home, I quote Richard Bolt from his play, A Man For All Seasons:
Thomas More: Why not be a teacher? You'd be a fine teacher. Perhaps a great one.
Richard Rich: lf I was, who would know it?
More: You! Your pupils. Your friends. God. Not a bad public, that.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 23 2008, 9:09pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 9:22pm
Post #20 of 41
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The Shire represents the modern world that has no time for stories of heroes, and is more interested in the peccadilloes of its celebrities (as we see from the talk in the Ivy Bush at the start of LotR). But Frodo and Sam grow beyond the Shire, and take comfort in knowing that they are following in the footsteps of Heroes, and may one day be in the stories of Heroes themselves.
This makes me think of something you wrote in another thread, about the contrasting stories in the alternating books of LotR. One story is "a rollicking adventure story", as you say, and the other is "a serious spiritual and moral journey into Hell". And yet there are many small parallels that show us Frodo and Sam, in their own modest way, echoing the heroic behaviour of the other storyline. They too learn to be heroes, and grow beyond the focus on gossip and scandal that entertains their fellow-countrymen. They learn to care about the tales of heroes, and are inspired by the thought of being included in such tales themselves.
And they get the last laugh, I suppose - even in the 21st century, when celebrity gossip seems to occupy far more bandwidth than anything else, Frodo really has become the "famousest of hobbits", and that's still saying a lot!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 9:22pm
Post #21 of 41
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their role in the Divine Plan, yes. They didn't care about their reputations among the hobbits. Perhaps, as they were transformed by their adventures, they began to care about their reputations among the society of heroes into which they had been thrust by Fate. As Elrond promises, Frodo shall be numbered among the legendary Elf-friends, and there is no greater reward than that. But their reputation among the hobbits? They expect nothing but the ridicule Biblo received at home.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 23 2008, 9:31pm
Post #22 of 41
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their role in the Divine Plan, yes. They didn't care about their reputations among the hobbits. Perhaps, as they were transformed by their adventures, they began to care about their reputations among the society of heroes into which they had been thrust by Fate. As Elrond promises, Frodo shall be numbered among the legendary Elf-friends, and there is no greater reward than that. But their reputation among the hobbits? They expect nothing but the ridicule Biblo received at home.
And people will say: 'Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring!' And they'll say: 'Yes, that's one of my favourite stories, Frodo was very brave, wasn't he dad?' 'Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and that's saying a lot.' "
So who are these "people" Frodo and Sam are talking about if they're not hobbits?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 23 2008, 9:44pm
Post #23 of 41
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So who are these "people" Frodo and Sam are talking about if they're not hobbits?
But the hobbits are us, so I guess that's the same thing...
Sam's family keeps the Red Book, but I guess Curious is right that few other hobbits knew or cared about the story during Frodo and Sam's lifetime. Certainly Frodo and Sam must have known that they could not expect to have honour in their own country. Their inspiration seems to have been longer-term than that - the monument "more lasting than bronze" of a story that survives the centuries.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 23 2008, 9:44pm)
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 23 2008, 9:47pm
Post #24 of 41
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He's making fun of Frodo, and Frodo returns the favor by making fun of Sam. They're laughing at the very idea of being treated as heroes in Hobbiton.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 23 2008, 9:50pm
Post #25 of 41
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"Now, Mr. Frodo," said Sam, "you shouldn't make fun. I was serious."
"So was I," said Frodo, "and so I am."
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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