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drogo
Lorien
Jun 18 2008, 11:40am
Post #1 of 18
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The Palantír III: Sauron Speaks (Thinks? Channels? Huh?)
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When Gandalf wakes up and discovers the thief, he starts to interrogate Pippin to find out exactly what he has witnessed. Pippin gives him this account:
I saw a dark sky, and tall battlements," he said. "And tiny stars. It seemed very far away and long ago, yet hard and clear. Then the stars went in and out-they were cut off by things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling round the tower. I thought there were nine of them. One began to fly straight towards me, getting bigger and bigger. It had a horrible - no, no! I can't say.
"I tried to get away, because I thought it would fly out; but when it had covered all the globe, it disappeared. Then he came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood."
Pippin then recounts the words he and Sauron, the only direct dialogue between Sauron and a character in the novel:
'"So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"
"I did not answer. He said: "Who are you?" I still did not answer, but it hurt me horribly; and he pressed me, so I said: "A hobbit."
"Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"
"Then he gloated over me. I felt I was falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more. I don't remember anything else."
Then, echoing Gildor's line about meddling in the affairs of wizards, Gandalf reassures Pippin that he has not done great harm. Since the Dark Lord wanted to transport Pippin to Mordor, he did not try to get the information from him directly.
Gandalf then presents the stone to Aragorn who takes charge of it now after all this time. They both comment that now they understand the true nature of the link between Mordor and Isengard and how the hobbit fit into their plans. As Gandalf explains,
The Enemy, it is clear, thought that the Stone was in Orthanc - why should he not? And that therefore the hobbit was captive there, driven to look in the glass for his torment by Saruman. That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error. We must snatch that time. We have been too leisurely. We must move.
At that moment, a shadow of a winged shape flies overheard, one of the Nazgűl now on the other side of the Great River, heading for the supposedly captive hobbit.
1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
2. How well does Pippin hold up in this encounter? Would the other hobbits have been able to resist Sauron, or would others have potentially given away more valuable information? Does Pippin's essential nature protect him in some way for damage and torment?
3. Should Gandalf and Aragorn have suspected something like this to link Isengard and Mordor before this discovery? Should Gandalf have sense then properties of the stone earlier? How does this Middle-earth version of a hard-wired connection between the two enemies give them advantages in this war?
4. How does this scene reflect Aragorn's continuing rise to accept his station as the king? Why are the others surprised when Gandalf presents it to him so formally?
5. What does the coming of the Nazgűl tell us of the speed with which their fell beasts can fly?
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visualweasel
Rohan
Jun 18 2008, 3:16pm
Post #2 of 18
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They’re fast, but not *that* fast ...
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5. What does the coming of the Nazgűl tell us of the speed with which their fell beasts can fly?
Initially, one is tempted to think the Nazgűl came flying at a genuinely preternatural speed, in direct response to Pippin’s appearance in the palantír; however, Gandalf dispels the notion pretty quickly:
'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean, it didn't know that I had… '
'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dűr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgűl would take a few hours to fly between them [..].
So, they’re pretty fast, all right, but not instantaneous. Still, taking Gandalf’s guess of 200 leagues (about 600 miles) as pretty accurate, and taking “a few hours” to mean, say, four, this would work out to about 150 mph. That’s fast!
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 18 2008, 3:23pm
Post #3 of 18
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1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
I think that leaving Sauron in the shadows is the best approach. I thought "Cloverfield" was a brilliant movie until they finally showed a full-size shot of the monster. Then he was so goofy (and so anthropomorphic) that it spoiled the whole thing.
2. How well does Pippin hold up in this encounter? Would the other hobbits have been able to resist Sauron, or would others have potentially given away more valuable information? Does Pippin's essential nature protect him in some way for damage and torment?
You mean protect him from damage and torment? (Unless you mean potentially keeping him from falling apart too soon for Sauron's eventual entertainment.) I think that Pippin did suffer short-term damage from this encounter, because when he sees the beacon-fires in the hills, his first thought is fearful--that he's traveling into a land full of dragons. That's not like Pippin at all! But it is like someone who has taken harm from the enemy--that perception of everything as menacing and dark. In his healthy state Pippin would have thought, "Ooh! Campfires!"
Which would explain why Gandalf carried Pippin sleeping in his arms like a child, instead of setting the hobbit upright before him the way hobbits normally ride with Big Folk. I take this to mean that Gandalf (multitasking under the urgent circumstances) was healing him, pouring some of his Gandalf the White light energy into him to restore him. Sort of giving Pippin a transfusion of life-energy which did not interfere with Gandalf mulling over the Palantiri or galloping to Gondor (fortunately, Shadofax does not actually require steering.)
As for how the others might have fared? I can only guess:
Frodo: Absolute disaster. The Ring would have seen her chance, and deliberately tempted him into pride in challenging Sauron for possession of her. Which would have wound up with Frodo losing and the Nazgul beelining for the Ring instead of Orthanc.
Sam: Sam would have held out very well indeed. We saw that back in Bag End, when Gandalf scared him into a blubbering heap of hysteria--yet still he continued to lie to cover for Merry, Pippin, and Fatty. (Gandalf was so overjoyed! You can just bet he knew about the whole "conspiracy", and approved.)
Merry: The result would probably have been much the same, yet Merry would have been in more peril afterwards. He had already had a whiff of the Black Breath back in Bree, and this would be such a similar circumstance that Gandalf might have needed longer to heal him; he might not have been fully recovered by the time they reached Gondor.
3. Should Gandalf and Aragorn have suspected something like this to link Isengard and Mordor before this discovery? Should Gandalf have sense then properties of the stone earlier? How does this Middle-earth version of a hard-wired connection between the two enemies give them advantages in this war?
Suspect, yes. But a suspicion, a hypothesis, requires testing. Lucky indeed it was that Pippin took care of that for them!
And yes, the side that has the fastest mode of communication has a powerful advantage in war.
4. How does this scene reflect Aragorn's continuing rise to accept his station as the king? Why are the others surprised when Gandalf presents it to him so formally?
They're surprised because they do not know that all Palantiri in Middle Earth technically belong to the King. But Aragorn knows. And now that he realizes what the object is, he wants what is rightfully his. This is a huge step in his confidence, to claim his right. Until now he hasn't claimed his rights to anything.
5. What does the coming of the Nazgűl tell us of the speed with which their fell beasts can fly?
That if this battle were to be won on stats alone, the good guys haven't got a prayer. Sauron has swifter communications, swifter transportation, more firepower, more manpower, and superior technology. If, as some wargamers, strategists, and the less imaginative of generals believe, this was all that he needed, he would win hands down.
However, a war is won or lost on one thing alone: Morale. The side wins that can seize all of the morale for itself. Granted, all of the above superiorities go a long way towards achieving that goal. And in general, morale tends to go with whoever seizes the most real estate, and tends to flee those with high casualties. This leads to the erroneous assumption that captured land and slain enemies define who has won or lost. But by that definition, the USA lost the Revolutionary War, the Alamo was an exercise in futility, and Viet Nam is a capitalist democracy.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 18 2008, 5:19pm
Post #4 of 18
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1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
I think it's a brilliant piece of misdirection that we never actually see the Lord of the Rings, even though the book is named after him. Even Pippin's account is secondhand, and therefore he can gloss over Sauron's appearance. This trick causes us to wonder, first, if someone other than Sauron might become the Lord of the Rings, and second to imagine the Dark Lord as the worst of our individual nightmares, which is more effective than anything Tolkien could describe. I will note, however, that Gollum says Sauron has four fingers, which means he also has hands, and presumably legs. In the books, Sauron is not a disembodied Eye. In his letters, Tolkien reiterates that point.
2. How well does Pippin hold up in this encounter? Would the other hobbits have been able to resist Sauron, or would others have potentially given away more valuable information? Does Pippin's essential nature protect him in some way for damage and torment?
I think what is most remarkable is how quickly Pippin recovers from this encounter. The fact that Pippin did not give away anything is mostly Sauron's fault. But the fact that Pippin recovers gives testament to his resilience and unquenchable optimism. Even among the hobbits that is what Pippin is known for -- that and his periodic foolishness. That might be why Pippin was chosen for this task, if indeed he was chosen.
3. Should Gandalf and Aragorn have suspected something like this to link Isengard and Mordor before this discovery? Should Gandalf have sense then properties of the stone earlier? How does this Middle-earth version of a hard-wired connection between the two enemies give them advantages in this war?
Gandalf did suspect the nature of the stone, and says as much. What he didn't suspect was that Pippin would try to steal it, or that he would succeed if he tried. Perhaps he wasn't fully aware of Sauron's ability to warp the nature of the palantir, which is why he himself was sorely tempted to look into it. And that also means he may not have suspected that Pippin's brief glance at the palantir would put the poor hobbit under some sort of spell.
Clearly this connection gave Sauron advantages, but not just because it was a form of communication. In his hands, it was also a form of control. Note that Sauron isn't a bit worried about the possibility that Saruman has the Ring. Saruman is firmly under his control -- at least when Sauron pays attention. The problem is that Sauron is a micromanager who must pay constant attention to all his servants -- otherwise they quickly prove faithless.
4. How does this scene reflect Aragorn's continuing rise to accept his station as the king? Why are the others surprised when Gandalf presents it to him so formally?
Presumably this is the first time Gandalf has bowed to Aragorn, and addressed him as lord. I like how when Gandalf addresses Aragorn formally, he even refers to Pippin formally as "the hobbit, Peregrin," even though both of them know him as Pippin. To some extent I think Gandalf does this for the benefit of the audience -- particularly Theoden and his men. I wonder if he would have done the same if no one else had been present? Perhaps he would -- for the benefit of Aragorn himself, to show that the Stewardship of Middle-earth will soon shift from Gandalf's shoulders to Aragorn's, and perhaps even to boost Aragorn's ego a bit. I don't recall Gandalf doing any bowing when he and Aragorn were alone on Mount Mindolluin, and found the sapling of the White Tree. By then there was no need.
5. What does the coming of the Nazgűl tell us of the speed with which their fell beasts can fly?
As visualweasel has noted, this Nazgul is not responding to Pippin's blunder, although it is easy for the reader to jump to that conclusion, as Pippin did. The Nazgul may be headed to Isengard because Saruman has not reported in lately, though. And again as visualweasel notes, the winged beasts of the Nazgul are indeed quite fast -- perhaps faster than Shadowfax.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 18 2008, 5:22pm)
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Elenedhel
Rivendell
Jun 18 2008, 10:28pm
Post #5 of 18
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1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
I think it is very effective to keep Sauron hidden in the only encounter with him in the book. Too often good books (and movies) are spoiled when you wait and wait to meet the "terrible" and "evil" villain, and then they don't live up to your expectations. Sauron never disappoints the reader because we never meet him.
"O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas."
"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men,and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he was from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace..."
"Many folk like to know beforehand what is to be set on the table; but those who have laboured to prepare the feast like to keep their secret; for wonder makes the words of praise louder."
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 18 2008, 11:17pm
Post #6 of 18
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They're mean, they're fast, and they're headed this way.
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I'm sure we all deeply regret that Tolkien didn't show us the scene when the Nazgul arrived at Orthanc. But, alas, we get only "good guy" POVs.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Cyberia
The Shire
Jun 19 2008, 8:10am
Post #7 of 18
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1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were? I think it's a brilliant piece of misdirection that we never actually see the Lord of the Rings, even though the book is named after him. Even Pippin's account is secondhand, and therefore he can gloss over Sauron's appearance. This trick causes us to wonder, first, if someone other than Sauron might become the Lord of the Rings, and second to imagine the Dark Lord as the worst of our individual nightmares, which is more effective than anything Tolkien could describe. I will note, however, that Gollum says Sauron has four fingers, which means he also has hands, and presumably legs. In the books, Sauron is not a disembodied Eye. In his letters, Tolkien reiterates that point.
I never though Sauron was a disembodied eye, but I never took this paragraph literally either. What people always forget is that Pippen was looking through a palantir. The palantir could very well have seen Sauron, even if he was in spirit-form. That's what it does. I never thought he had physically manifest at this point (or indeed ever in ROTK)
Remember, Pippen didn't actually hear Sauron speak. He heard him in his mind. I think the palantir is bridging the gap somewhat. Sauron's a spirit, but the palantir can still communicate with and visualize him.
(This post was edited by Cyberia on Jun 19 2008, 8:12am)
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 19 2008, 2:47pm
Post #8 of 18
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Sauron was more spirit than body in the First and Second Age,
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when he could shift his shape at will. That was no longer the case in the Third Age. Granted, for much of the Third Age he may have been a weak spirit gathering the strength to once again take on a physical form, but once he succeeded in doing so his form was no longer under his control, as it had been before the Fall of Numenor. He was forced to take the shape he had after Isildur cut off his finger. And after the unmaking of the Ring Sauron's spirit was so weakened that it could no longer take a physical form at all. We see this same pattern in The Silmarillion with Morgoth, whose spirit weakened to the point where he could not heal the wounds inflicted by Fingolfin, and with the Balrogs, who could not shapeshift like Sauron.
In The Silmarillion Tolkien explains that strong spirits can take on physical manifestations and then discard them like clothes. In LotR I suspect that Bombadil and Goldberry are such strong spirits.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 19 2008, 2:53pm
Post #9 of 18
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There are many crystal balls in the world, and none of them are to be used lightly.
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1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain?
Okay. It’s a second hand description, so a lot is left up to the reader. (As usual.)
Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord,…
Nah. If Pippin remembers too much it lessens the impression of his terror. This says Pippin was too busy being scared to take notes.
…or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
It would seem a waste to thoroughly describe a character who only appears once in the trilogy. Especially only second hand.
2. How well does Pippin hold up in this encounter?
He survives. "That which does not kill you messes you up so bad the next little thing will take you right out."
Would the other hobbits have been able to resist Sauron,…
Did Pippin resist Sauron?
… or would others have potentially given away more valuable information?
If Sauron had wanted information I’m sure he could have gotten it. As it was Sauron just mentally tortured Pippin for fun and ended up getting nothing. That’s the problem with using torture for finding out information. Usually the interrogator gets so caught up in the torture process that they often lose sight of why they are torturing in the first place. Really, torture is pretty much useless as an interrogation method. That’s a lesson one wishes certain governments would learn.
Does Pippin's essential nature protect him in some way for damage and torment?
Well, it’s true that for extremely dangerous and bloody assignments the military prefers green (albeit highly trained) troops. For example, the US Army expected (and got) horrific casualties in the first wave at Omaha beach. So they selected inexperienced units who didn’t know enough to be scared. Veteran troops who knew better wouldn’t have gotten off the boats.
3. Should Gandalf and Aragorn have suspected something like this to link Isengard and Mordor before this discovery?
They knew Saruman had orcs. They knew the Nazgul were in contact with Saruman’s agents. They knew Saruman used crebain as spies and probably messengers. They found out the Nazgul had airlift capability. Frankly speculating about anything else linking the two might have seemed like gilding the lily.
Should Gandalf have sense then properties of the stone earlier?
He seemed to have sensed something. But like with the One Ring, I’m sure there are many crystal balls in the world, and none of them are to be used lightly. And, again like with his suspicions regarding Bilbo's ring, he’s not going to start messing with it to see what happens until after a long period of research and consideration. But luckily he happened to have Pippin lend himself as a guinea pig so Gandalf got a quick answer.
How does this Middle-earth version of a hard-wired connection between the two enemies give them advantages in this war?
Communication is a vital function in war. Radio communication gives a quantum leap in the ability of commanders to coordinate the military units under their command. For example, one of the main reasons for the French defeat in 1940 was that the German commanders had radios, the French commanders had to rely upon hand carried messages. Guess which army was able to respond to changes in the situation more quickly?
4. How does this scene reflect Aragorn's continuing rise to accept his station as the king?
There seems to be an over-eagerness that, as Gandalf warns, could lead to a stumble at the end of the road. One wonders if indeed Aragorn is a little bewitched by the stone, and that Gandalf senses it.
Why are the others surprised when Gandalf presents it to him so formally?
Picture the grand stately white form of Gandalf bowing before the battle stained ranger. Plus this is a nice foreshadowing of Tolkien’s main theme takne from Matthew 23:12. (“And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.”) Aragorn is about to get humbled big time.
5. What does the coming of the Nazgűl tell us of the speed with which their fell beasts can fly?
Interestingly their speed seems to match that of the fastest (and many say the best) World War One fighter, the British S.E.5a.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 19 2008, 5:39pm
Post #10 of 18
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...to report that he had only nine fingers. That sounds to me like a physical manifestation, and one that, as Curious says, he lacks full control over.
But your essential point, that whatever Pippin sees in the palantir may not be a physical Sauron, is absolutely right.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 19 2008, 5:56pm
Post #11 of 18
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I love this moment.
‘I think all will be well now,’ answered Gandalf. ‘He was not held long, and hobbits have an amazing power of recovery. The memory, or the horror of it, will probably fade quickly. Too quickly, perhaps. Will you, Aragorn, take the Orthanc-stone and guard it? It is a dangerous charge.’
‘Dangerous indeed, but not to all,’ said Aragorn. ‘There is one who may claim it by right. For this assuredly is the palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it.’
Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it. ‘Receive it, lord!’ he said: ‘in earnest of other things that shall be given back. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it – yet! Be wary!’
‘When have I been hasty or unwary, who have waited and prepared for so many long years?’ said Aragorn.
This is really a remarkable moment. Right along, Gandalf has been deferred to as the leader (at least, whenever he's around). And he's accustomed to this role. Here, he starts off assuming the palantir is his problem, and casually asks Aragorn to take custody of it.
He's clearly taken aback for a moment by Aragorn's assertion that it is, in fact, his by right, although he recovers quickly and presents it with due respect. But from now on, their relationship will never be the same.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 20 2008, 4:40am
Post #12 of 18
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Good point, Elizabeth! And consider that Gandalf responds to Aragorn's assertion that he has never been hasty with essentially telling him, "well, don't start now!" As if he knows that the Palantir is tugging at Aragorn.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 20 2008, 8:19am
Post #13 of 18
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1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
Consider Morgoth appearing in person in 'The Children of Hurin'. Not that great, even though there is no physical description. The only case of unmasking a hidden powerful adversary I've ever liked is The Wizard of Oz, who turns out to be 'the Great and Terrible Humbug'.
2. How well does Pippin hold up in this encounter? Would the other hobbits have been able to resist Sauron, or would others have potentially given away more valuable information? Does Pippin's essential nature protect him in some way for damage and torment?
Yes, I think so. As I've answered in a previous thread.
3. Should Gandalf and Aragorn have suspected something like this to link Isengard and Mordor before this discovery? Should Gandalf have sense then properties of the stone earlier? How does this Middle-earth version of a hard-wired connection between the two enemies give them advantages in this war?
I've answered that before, too. But Tom Shippey (I think) made the point that the information gained by the Palantiri in this War was always double-edged, and often led tto making wrong decisions: Saruman and Denethor (and possibly Aragorn too) confronting Sauron, Sauron mistaking first Pippin and then Aragorn, probably Denethor being driven to despair after Faramir was borne to the Citadel. I think he's right.
4. How does this scene reflect Aragorn's continuing rise to accept his station as the king? Why are the others surprised when Gandalf presents it to him so formally?
The Riders stirred at first, murmuring with approval of the words of Saruman... It seemed to them that Gandalf had never spoken so fair and fittingly to their lord, Rough and proud now seemed all his dealings with Theoden.
'The Voice of Saruman'
5. What does the coming of the Nazgűl tell us of the speed with which their fell beasts can fly?
Answered by others. But I think this Nazgul was sent because of the episode in 'The Uruk-hai', in which Grishnakh escapes to the river, knowing there is a Nazgul there. Some time later he returns, probably with new orders. Buit the Nazgul reported, and probably was sent to confront Saruman himself.
Consider the Nazgul seen in 'The Passage of the Marshes', and juxtapose them with Appendix B:
The shadow of horror wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them... and then it was gone, flying back to Mordor with the speed of the wrath of Sauron. That's on night of the first of March, three or four days after Grishnakh reported.
The second messenger probably goes North to Dol Guldur, as a week later both Eastren Rohan and Lorien are attacked. And on the same night:
About an hour after midnight the fear fell on them a third time, but now it seemed more remote, as if it were passing far above the clouds, rushing with terrible speed into the West. That was on the fourth of March, and a day later the Nazgul passed over the camp at Dol Baran. If I am correct in my assumption, that gives it some twenty-four hours for a direct flight of 300 miles.
And a profound apology to Modtheow, if she was planing to ask about this in two weeks time!
"For one thing, in that position one has a chance of putting a question a second time" - Merry
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a.s.
Valinor
Jun 20 2008, 11:45pm
Post #14 of 18
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Or something like that.
1. Given that this is the first encounter we have with Sauron in the book, how effectively does Tolkien handle the introduction of his villain? Should he have given us more of visual description of the scene and of the Dark Lord, or is it more effective to keep him in the shadows, as it were?
As others have said, I find this description of Sauron truly terrifying: "Then he came". Three small words filled with absolute terror. Pippin has seen Sauron, and is so frightened he can barely describe what happened because of the trauma of the experience. I greatly prefer this kind of Sauron, so frightening in my imagination, because the more definition he is given by description, the less I have to use my imagination and think about what a really terrifying entity is he who can command my brain to understand what he is telling me without using speech. Who is so commanding that I can't even look away from the glass ball or keep myself from communicating things to him against my will. Who can make me feel horrible pain by just looking at me through a glass ball from far away.
THAT is a scary dude.
Would the other hobbits have been able to resist Sauron, or would others have potentially given away more valuable information? Does Pippin's essential nature protect him in some way for damage and torment?
NONE of the hobbits could have resisted Sauron. Pippin was saved by Sauron's own miscalculation and premature gloating. Pippin's nature didn't save him from torment; Sauron's nature (greed, pride, lust) saved Pippin, in a sense, from further torment.
Pippin may have been protected from long-lasting effects of the trauma he has endured, at least Gandalf thought so. But I take Gandalf's words to mean that any hobbit has an amazing power of recovery, not just Pip. However, I find Gandalf's comment: "The memory, or the horror of it, will probably fade quickly. Too quickly, perhaps" to be interesting in light of Gandalf's occasional reference to the "Fool of a Took". Maybe that "too quickly" is something Gandalf is thinking about Pippin in specific, not just hobbits in general.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."
"I suppose you are real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive.
But the Skin Horse only smiled.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:29am
Post #15 of 18
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Nice connection to Saruman’s words for Théoden. //
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:30am
Post #16 of 18
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It reminds me of The Silmarillion: “Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.”
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 22 2009, 7:09pm
Post #17 of 18
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When I read the Sil the first time
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most of it went through my head like water, and a lot of it's still gone. But that sentence; "And Morgoth came" has remained with me vividly since 1977.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:03pm
Post #18 of 18
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I can't help thinking Pippin was chosen for this task.
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It's my obsession with the weather in LotR that started me on this thought. The moon shines brightly when Pippin steals the palantir from Gandalf. This is not the weather we normally see when evil things happen.
And Gandalf himself calls Pippin's deed a blessing, since it misdirects Sauron, reveals the nature and the danger of the palantir, and saves Gandalf from Saruman's fate. It also brings the palantir to Aragorn, who has the right and power -- just barely -- to challenge Sauron and claim the palantir as his own. Pippin functions as a guinea pig and a decoy.
Indeed, putting the palantir into Pippin's hands is similar to putting the Ring in Bilbo's hands. And it is as unexpected. I can't help thinking that Someone wanted Pippin to use the palantir, Someone Good, but also Someone ruthless enough to put Pippin in great danger to serve a greater Good. It's not Gandalf -- this is beyond, or dare I say above Gandalf.
Merry might not have done as well as Pippin. Pippin is the most optimistic of all the hobbits, and the youngest. He is the most likely to recover from this encounter, I judge. He is also the most foolish, and therefore the most likely to succumb to the lure of the palantir in the first place. "Fools rush in where angels dare not tread" -- and the Higher Powers needed someone foolish enough to rush in, but also pure enough to come out of the encounter relatively unscathed.
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