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drogo
Lorien
Jun 16 2008, 10:17am
Post #1 of 17
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The Palantír I: On the Road Again
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Greetings, this will be the first in this week's series of posts on " The Palantír." For this I will stick mostly to the text of the Revised Edition (there were some changes made to this chapter from the first to the second edition in the 1960s), and I will not delve into Tolkien's other writings on the Palantíri. Please feel free to explore some tangents and make reference to other works, though, in your responses.
I'll mostly post once a day given the length of this chapter, but will put in some other posts on art, etc. On Friday I will open up discussion and post some questions on the overall structure of Book III of the work before we begin Frodo and Sam's journey to Mordor.
And so it begins, to quote the movie!
The chapter begins with Gandalf riding out with Merry behind him and Aragorn carrying Pippin. As they leave Isengard, riding past the ruined pillar of the White hand, Merry begins bantering Gandalf in his typical hobbit fashion about how far they will ride, to which Gandalf replies "A most unquenchable hobbit! All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word, and to correct them."
Gandalf tells him that they are headed towards Edoras, and he comments on the relationship between Saruman and Sauron:
"Yes, we have won, but only the first victor and that in itself increases our danger. There was some link between Isengard and Mordor, which I have not yet fathomed. How they exchanged news I am not sure; but they did so. The Eye of Barad-dûr will be looking impatiently towards the Wizard's Vale, I think; and towards Rohan. The less it sees the better."
They halt for the night, and the two Hobbits begin to converse about Gandalf. They not how he has changed, and Merry comments, "He has grown, or something. He can be both kinder and more alarming, merrier and more solemn than before, I think. He has changed; but we have not had a chance to see how much, yet." They also note how the tables have turned and Gandalf, who once was under Saruman the White, now is in control. Merry then quotes Gildor, "Do not meddle in the at Fairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
1. What does this exchange tell us of the relationship between Gandalf and the hobbits. Has it changed since his return? To what extent do the hobbits sense his transformation and how do they relate to him now?
2. What does Gandalf fear about the connection between Isengard and Mordor? How much does he know at this point, and what does he fear is ahead? What does the pillar of the White Hand tell us about Saruman's designs?
3. How does the hobbit-centric perspective on this chapter differ from the other chapters in this book which looked at the battle from the point of view of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas? Why does Tolkien not give us more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters at this point, and how does it prepare us for the shock of Pippin's encounter with the Palantír to come?
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 16 2008, 11:37am
Post #2 of 17
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1. What does this exchange tell us of the relationship between Gandalf and the hobbits. Has it changed since his return? To what extent do the hobbits sense his transformation and how do they relate to him now?
The hobbits are quite familiar with Gandalf and not at all scared of him. They don't treat him like an angelic messenger of the Valar, but like a favorite uncle. And Gandalf is quite tolerant of such treatment, laughing at Merry's wizard-wheedling. But perhaps a little more fear would have served Pippin well.
I'm not sure what Gandalf has done to cause Merry to say he can be "both kinder and more alarming, merrier and more solemn than before." Gandalf did break Saruman's staff, and that was an eye opener, but Merry really hasn't seen Gandalf much since his return. Merry seems to be sensing Gandalf's transformation with some hidden sense, as Tolkien's more perceptive characters often do. Pippin, however, is in no position to be perceptive. His perception is clouded by his desire for the palantir.
2. What does Gandalf fear about the connection between Isengard and Mordor? How much does he know at this point, and what does he fear is ahead? What does the pillar of the White Hand tell us about Saruman's designs?
How did Gandalf know that Isengard and Mordor exchanged news? He is of course correct, but what tipped him off? Or is this just one of Gandalf's famous hunches? It seems like a hunch to me, and a bit of foreshadowing on Tolkien's part. Or perhaps Gandalf guessed at the true nature of the stone he had recovered from Pippin, and from there guessed also at how it had been used.
The pillar of the White Hand tells us that Saruman sought temporal power, and was not content to serve as an advisor to the free peoples of Middle-earth. Such statues are not necessarily evil -- Gondor had many statues -- but Saruman was not supposed to set himself up as a political rival to Gondor or Mordor.
3. How does the hobbit-centric perspective on this chapter differ from the other chapters in this book which looked at the battle from the point of view of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas? Why does Tolkien not give us more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters at this point, and how does it prepare us for the shock of Pippin's encounter with the Palantír to come?
The language is less formal, and we get inside Pippin's head. But when we contrast Pippin's behavior with Merry's, we can see that something is wrong with Pippin. Merry's conversation with Gandalf does give us insights into Gandalf's thoughts, and Gandalf's speculation about communication with Mordor forshadows Pippin's use of the palantir.
But why didn't Pippin ask Aragorn about the palantir? Indeed, why didn't Aragorn immediately recognize the palantir for what it was, and claim it as his own? Perhaps he did, but was content to leave it in Gandalf's possession for the time being. And perhaps Pippin did not think to ask Aragorn because Pippin was determined to resent Gandalf and therefore justify stealing the stone.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 16 2008, 3:32pm
Post #3 of 17
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"All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word, and to correct them."
I always thought this was a particularly telling line! It shows how Gandalf escaped the fates of the other wizards--he kept in touch with hobbits to correct him. Though he does have a proud nature, the boldness of hobbits telling him precisely when and where he might be wrong kept him too humble for Saruman's fall (or the alleged fall of the Blue Wizards in accepting worship) and their surprising bursts of love, courage, and other virtues in the midst of being annoyingly small-minded protected him from Radagast's fall, of ceasing to care about sentient life at all.
Care, as a nown, according to the Mirriam-Webster online dictionary:
1: suffering of mind : grief
(Hobbits do give Gandalf grief at times!)
2 a: a disquieted state of mixed uncertainty, apprehension, and responsibility
(Gandalf also feels all these things due to his sense of responsibility for the hobbits that he has known.)
b: a cause for such anxiety
(Hobbits.)
3 a: painstaking or watchful attention
(Hobbits need a lot of that.)
b: maintenance <floor-care products>
(Hobbits need a lot of maintenance.)
4: regard coming from desire or esteem
(Despite all of the above, he does esteem hobbits very much, and desires their company enough to take his rare vacations in The Shire. Bilbo's youthful recollections of Gandalf seem to indicate that he showed up more often for pleasure than for business.)
5: charge, supervision <under a doctor's care>
(Hobbits often come under his charge or supervision.)
6: a person or thing that is an object of attention, anxiety, or solicitude
(Gandalf gives hobbits plenty of attention and solicitude, and they do often wind up provoking his anxiety.)
Care, as a verb, according to the same source:
1 a: to feel trouble or anxiety
(Gandalf often feels trouble or anxiety for hobbits.)
b: to feel interest or concern <care about freedom>
(He also feels both interest in them and concern for them. And their concerns are his, even when this seems irrelevant to the Great Business of his life.)
2: to give care <care for the sick>
(He tries to take good care of hobbits, even to helping them survive the Fell Winter.)
3 a: to have a liking, fondness, or taste <don't care for your attitude>
(Oh he definitely likes them, feels fondness for them, and appreciates their tastes!)
b: to have an inclination <would you care for some pie>
(Hence his enjoyment of visiting the Shire.)
transitive verb1: to be concerned about or to the extent of <don't care what they say> <doesn't care a damn>
(It's this very personal emotion that distinguishes Gandalf from Saruman--nothing is abstract about Gandalf's caring. Hobbits are not mere pawns in his game--hobbits matter.)
2: wish <if you care to go>
(Hobbits hold a deep place in what Gandalf wishes for, what he hopes to preserve about Middle Earth.)
Every single layer of meaning in the word "Care" illustrates precisely how his love for hobbits steered Gandalf on a path distinct from the other wizards. That, even more than their persistent questions and their lack of hesitation to challenge the opinions of a "better" kept Gandalf "corrected" and on his proper path. I find it difficult to imagine Saruman accepting, let alone seeking out, correction from anyone, certainly not a creature so inferior-seeming as a hobbit. And therein lies his downfall--an inability to correct his course as he goes, because to do so requires admitting to having been wrong--or that someone else was more right. It would be an easy trap for a wizard to fall into, being of a higher order of being than anyone else in Middle Earth. But I always remember my genius father telling me, "Listen to everyone. Even the village idiot might stumble across information that you don't know and need to hear."
Sorry for the digression--I'll get to the actual questions by and by.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Jun 16 2008, 3:36pm)
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 16 2008, 3:55pm
Post #4 of 17
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1. What does this exchange tell us of the relationship between Gandalf and the hobbits. Has it changed since his return? To what extent do the hobbits sense his transformation and how do they relate to him now?
It reminds me of what any friend would go through when a loved one disappears for awhile, goes through an ordeal that one does not wholly understand, and comes back different for the experience. That person's friends study everything keenly, want to know what now differs and what has stayed the same, and how this will affect their old friendship. Can they adapt to each other again? Will the differences become a deal-breaker? Will the friendship be deeper and stronger than before? Can things ever go back to being the way they were? Merry and Pippin's minds must seethe with all of these questions!
2. What does Gandalf fear about the connection between Isengard and Mordor? How much does he know at this point, and what does he fear is ahead? What does the pillar of the White Hand tell us about Saruman's designs?
He probably strongly suspects that what Grima threw out was a Palantir, but then Saruman has an ability to throw his voice and will far. And we don't know how many Noldor artifacts might take global form. For all we know, the orb might project nothing but old Elvish musicals, sort of a magical DVD. Or staring into it might reveal a map of the cosmos, with a little blinking light saying, "You Are Here". Or it might have had ornamental value only.
What does Gandalf fear? How much Mordor might know, from Saruman.
As for the White Hand, anyone might have a posthumous statue erected in one's honor. But it takes a lot of cheek to erect a statue to oneself. It does stand out that Saruman emulates Sauron in choosing a body-part for his emblem. "The Eye of Sauron is everywhere," right? Well, if the hand of Saruman is everywhere, that's an out and out challenge, saying, "You can look--but I can touch!" It's greedier, it says, "I grab it, I hold it, I manipulate it all."
3. How does the hobbit-centric perspective on this chapter differ from the other chapters in this book which looked at the battle from the point of view of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas? Why does Tolkien not give us more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters at this point, and how does it prepare us for the shock of Pippin's encounter with the Palantír to come?
Tolkien always keeps in mind that we are hobbit-scale, ourselves, and relate better to them than to the larger-than-life heroes. We also need to understand what's going on in Pippin's mind to see why he'd steal the Palantir for a joy-ride.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 17 2008, 4:41am
Post #5 of 17
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Do M&P's observations match ours?
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We have seen Gandalf the White re-establish his connection with the Hunters, heal Théoden, initiate immediate military action against Saruman, persuade Treebeard to dispatch the huorns to Helm's Deep, roundup the scattered Westfold riders, and negotiate with Saruman (eventually applying harsh discipline). All pretty heavy going.
On this ride with Merry is the first time we've actually seen him a little bit relaxed, gathering himself to move on to the next crisis (which will come much sooner than he plans). I think he is actually grateful of the opportunity to banter with Merry and to muse on the recent turn of events; it's certainly the most relaxed we've seen him so far.
I wonder how much Gandalf knew about the palantir before Grima threw it? Would he have seen it during his captivity, or on a prior visit to Orthanc? If so, why didn't he guess that was how Saruman was communicating with Sauron? If not, how did he know immediately what it was?
Gandalf arrived in ME about TA1000. The stones of Arnor were lost in TA1975. Therefore, it's possible that he knew about at least those, and should have known there was one in Isengard and Minas Tirith, but much time has passed since then; maybe he assumed they were lost, too, if he hadn't heard of them. Saruman occupied Orthanc in TA2953; maybe he assumed the Steward had taken it. But, then, why should it be surprising that Denethor had one?
Maybe what he didn't know was the Sauron had one, although that shouldn't have been hard to guess, either.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 17 2008, 4:31pm
Post #6 of 17
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I believe that Ganalf guessed a great deal. But he couldn't know for sure. Saruman might in fact have lied about finding no palantir in Orthanc on some previous occasion when they were still friends. Gandalf could suspect him of lying only after Saruman's overt betrayal, but then so many different fears would bounce around Gandalf's head (for, as Elrond said of Saruman, "He was deep in all our councils") that he could easily have forgotten about the palantir entirely.
Gandalf, I think, only began to put the pieces together later, riding for Gondor with Pippin, murmuring that nursery rhyme about the seven stones as he mused. I think that by the time he did arrive in Gondor, he had a strong suspicion that Denethor, too, had a palantir and was actively using it (innuendos fly between those two) but could not find a way to openly broach the topic with such a proud and testy head of state.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 17 2008, 11:51pm
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Gandalf certainly does suspect the stone
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to be a Palantír, as he says later on, and he was thinking of using it to try it out, he was himself tempted by it.
How would Saruman communicate with Sauron? How would Gandalf know that? I find it curious, perhaps one clue is Saruman's evil: Saruman evidently has been corrupted by something, and Sauron seems a logical choice. Nonetheless, this looks like another Hunch.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 18 2008, 3:56pm
Post #8 of 17
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What does this exchange tell us of the relationship between Gandalf and the hobbits.
Yes, it’s interesting how easily M&P leave Treebeard behind. Anyway, with the breaking of the Fellowship Gandalf is their anchor to the Shire. Men, Dwarves, and Elves are alien creatures. But Gandalf is someone they’re familiar with. Something that’s comforting.
As for Gandalf, I think this line is telling:
"A most unquenchable hobbit! All Wizards should have a hobbit or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word, and to correct them."
Supposedly Tolkien wasn’t an especially great teacher. It’s said he lectured into the chalkboard and tended to mumble. But I can just picture Tolkien saying this to himself when an especially enthusiastic and inquisitive student nabbed him after class or showed up at his office with questions, questions, and more questions. Teachers say such students remind them what teaching is all about.
Has it changed since his return?
Any relationship is changed when someone returns from the dead. I had a brother-in-law who because of misidentification we all thought had been killed in a car wreck. After he turned up alive (and puzzled about all the fuss) it was amazing how different he was. Of course he was the same guy. It was us who had changed.
To what extent do the hobbits sense his transformation and how do they relate to him now?
Well, he’s dressed in white now. But really I think a large part of the change is in the hobbits. First they have reevaluated a fixture they had taken for granted. Second they’ve been through a lot since they last saw him: captivity by orcs, the death of Boromir, the breaking of the Fellowship, Lothlorien, and of course Gandalf’s death. Third, they’ve had a grand adventure of their own with the Ents. They’ve become heroes of their own story. Yeah, it’s the hobbits who have changed.
2. What does Gandalf fear about the connection between Isengard and Mordor?
There's the weird "coincidence" that while Sauron was preparing to attack in north, Isengard was attacking in the south. The two armies were somehow coordinating their actions. Isengard opened up a “second front” in the War of the Ring. And though Saruman and most of his forces have been neutralized, there is still a large remnant of his power base still dangling around out there, waiting for someone to show up and take control them. As we will find out in the chapter about the Scouring.
How much does he know at this point, and what does he fear is ahead?
Well, he knows a quite bit from his captivity in Orthanc of course, including from Saruman’s own mouth. Then there’s what Elrond, Celeborn, Galadriel and others he’s talked to have guessed. I believe he knows that the Witch King utilized Saruman’s own spies to find out about hobbits, the Shire, and the ring. (As well as Saruman’s own treachery.) And of course he knows about the mixture of Isengard, Mordor, and Moria orcs that Eomer met. Then there's the little matter of the flying Nazgul that Legolas shot down that was heading towards isengard.
I think he’s concerned about any other Sarumans or Grimas hidden in the leadership structure of the West. Which is a big reason he’s bee-lining for Gondor. If you find a couple of cockroaches on the kitchen floor there’s bound to be more in the walls. Same with traitors and spies.
What does the pillar of the White Hand tell us about Saruman's designs?
Well this is a boundary marker. Saruman was starting to claim land, marking the boundaries of his territory like a dog. Similarly, in answer to the Uruk-hai incursion into the territory of Rohan, Eomer erected a stake with a great goblin head upon it. It's a guy thing. A hissing contest, if you will.
3. How does the hobbit-centric perspective on this chapter differ from the other chapters in this book which looked at the battle from the point of view of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas?
Again, the language and style of the narrative changes. It shows Tolkien's magnificent talent as a writer. Some writers can successfully change gears like that, but most fail to convincingly shift to another point of view. There's always that distracting feeling of "writer on board". You don't have that feeling with Tolkien.
Why does Tolkien not give us more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters at this point,…
The more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters the less heroic they become. Picture Jackson’s films without Aragorn ruminating about the weakness of men in a private moment with Arwen, or voicing doubts about himself when he is in solitude with his foster father. Picture them without Gandalf confiding to Aragorn his doubts about whether Frodo is alive, or his expression of personal anguish to a circle of close friends that he sent Frodo to his doom.
That’s why a leader should never show doubt to his men. Neither should a hero show doubt to his readers. We don’t like it. We prefer our heroes to be a blank slate upon which we can project our personal fantasies. It’s so much more comforting. It’s like a child who thinks mommy and daddy are perfect. Then come the teen years, disillusion, and the inevitable feelings of betrayal and anger….
I note C.S. Forester stood all this on its head when he wrote the Horatio Hornblower series. Forester writes mainly from Hornblower’s perspective. And Hornblower is always full of anguish and self doubt. He second guesses himself and focuses on his mistakes in judgment. He gets seasick and is afraid of heights. He frets about being scared and weak. He worries about whether he has the respect of his superiors and subordinates. He fears he doesn’t have the true affection of his beloved. Yet occasionally Forester allows us to get a glimpse of Hornblower from others’ points of view. And they are full of admiration, respect, and love for him. Now that is a true hero: A hero who doesn’t think he’s a hero.
… and how does it prepare us for the shock of Pippin's encounter with the Palantír to come?
Well, with the comment about "rag-tag" Merry shows that Saruman’s voice got to him. It’s interesting that while acknowledging it Gandalf totally misses its sinister significance. Gandalf notes that even now "you and Pippin are more in his thought than all the rest of us”. As is doubtless the palantir as well! We were told last chapter that “but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them”. Saruman is even now concentrating on the hobbits and the palantir. And sure enough, a bit later one of those hobbits uncharacteristically makes a surreptitious grab for the palantir. Coincidence? I think not!!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Saelind
Lorien
Jun 19 2008, 3:02am
Post #10 of 17
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1. What does this exchange tell us of the relationship between Gandalf and the hobbits. Has it changed since his return? To what extent do the hobbits sense his transformation and how do they relate to him now?
*He is probably more remote than the clever conjurer and firework purveyor they knew from the Shire but there is still enough of the “old” Gandalf that the hobbits still feel comfortable with him. But they have grown up too and perhaps they feel as though Gandalf still views them as silly hobbits from the Shire.
2. What does Gandalf fear about the connection between Isengard and Mordor? How much does he know at this point, and what does he fear is ahead? What does the pillar of the White Hand tell us about Saruman's designs?
*He feared exactly how much information had been exchanged and how often Sauron “checked up” on Saruman. The White Hand shows that Saruman had the desire to set himself up as a rival to Sauron.
3. How does the hobbit-centric perspective on this chapter differ from the other chapters in this book which looked at the battle from the point of view of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas? Why does Tolkien not give us more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters at this point, and how does it prepare us for the shock of Pippin's encounter with the Palantír to come?*Well, the main heart of the story is the hobbits and their experiences. I also suspect the thoughts of the heroic characters really aren’t that interesting at this place in the story. Probably full of battle plans, troop numbers, and when their next rest stop is going to be. The conversation between Merry and Pippin helps us see Pippin’s restlessness and discontent as out of place. He should be as tired as Merry and ready to fall asleep. And for devil-may-care Pippin to be burning with curiosity over the Palantir is not usual behavior for him either
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 20 2008, 7:29am
Post #11 of 17
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1. What does this exchange tell us of the relationship between Gandalf and the hobbits. Has it changed since his return? To what extent do the hobbits sense his transformation and how do they relate to him now?
Merry does, Pippin does not. But dullness is not always a liability; confronted with Faramir's malady and Denethor's madness, Merry would have probably been siezed by a fit of despair.
2. What does Gandalf fear about the connection between Isengard and Mordor? How much does he know at this point, and what does he fear is ahead? What does the pillar of the White Hand tell us about Saruman's designs?
Last chapter, Gandalf told Saruman:
When last I visited you, you were the jailor of Mordor, and there I was to be sent. Did Gandalf know this, or suspect? Could it be that when Saruman first offered him what he considered a true alliance - reuniting their knowledge, in order to destory Sauron, while bluffing him that Saruman (at least) was on his side - Gandalf simply misunderstood him, not being used to the language of double-dealing and treachery?
Anyway, only later (probably by Gwaihir's spying) Gandalf realised what Saruman's real game was. But he was still sure that Saruman had a contact with Sauron.
But there was no need to think of a Palantir. When the Wise overthrew Dol Guldur, who went with Saruman through the Necromancer's secret labs and files, or whatever he had there? Not Gandalf; he was probably more intersted in releasing the prisoners from the dungeons. But even if he went with Saruman - he studied everything they found very little. So Saruman might have established a connection like that with Mordor. Why consider the Palantirs?
3. How does the hobbit-centric perspective on this chapter differ from the other chapters in this book which looked at the battle from the point of view of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas? Why does Tolkien not give us more insight into the thoughts of the heroic characters at this point, and how does it prepare us for the shock of Pippin's encounter with the Palantír to come?
When possible, keep with the main conceit. Even when a hobbit is not available, Tolkien prefers using Gimli, as the least-heroic of the Fellowship.
And Pippin's encounter is the whole story of the book in a nutshell - the hobbits encountering unawares frightful evil, and emerging victorious because the Enemy misunderstands and underestimates them, thinking everyone plays by his game.
"For one thing, in that position one has a chance of putting a question a second time" - Merry
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:24am
Post #12 of 17
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In how many scenes does Gandalf have a conversation only with a hobbit?
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I remember Gandalf talking with:
-Bilbo before the party.
-Bilbo giving up the Ring.
-Frodo after the party, twice.
-Frodo, seventeen years later.
-Frodo when he wakes in Rivendell.
-Merry here.
-Pippin as they ride to Minas Tirith.
-Pippin before and after meeting Denethor.
-Frodo and Sam when the awake at Cormallen.
-Frodo and the others briefly on the road from Rivendell to Bree.
Any other times?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:25am
Post #13 of 17
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And we don't know how many Noldor artifacts might take global form. For all we know, the orb might project nothing but old Elvish musicals, sort of a magical DVD.
“Hello Ar'dhel,
This is Turgon, Ar'dhel,
It’s so great to have you back where you belong!”
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:26am
Post #14 of 17
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Do we know that the Nazgûl shot by Legolas
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…was heading for Isengard?
I really enjoyed your analysis here.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:26am
Post #15 of 17
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Is Gimli the “least heroic” non-Hobbit of the Fellowship?
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He outdoes Legolas in orc-slaying. Maybe “least remote”?
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:32am
Post #16 of 17
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The one long passage told through the eyes of a non-hobbit
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Meaning the journey from Dunharrow to Erech - is told as if by Gimli; and he shows himself in a very unheroic light there.
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 12:24pm
Post #17 of 17
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The most significant one is with Pippin, after Faramir's report.
And the two have a short one at the Gate of Minas Tirith, with Pippin persuading Gandalf to go to Rath Dinen (is there any other case we know of, when someine actually changes the wizards' mind?)
A third brief one is with Pippin, after he drops the stone in Moria - although Pippin doesn't answer then, so perhaps it isn't really a conversation!
A few other such conversations are reported:
In the Council, Gabdalf describes his talk with the Gaffer.
In Isengard, he talks with Pippin (and persumably Merry), before and after meeting Treebeard.
And perhaps one should add, the long and weary talk he had with Gollum.
"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" - Pippin
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