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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Alternative plots for Film Two
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merklynn
Lorien


Jun 15 2008, 4:52am

Post #1 of 28 (783 views)
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Alternative plots for Film Two Can't Post

Quick primer... Film Two is at this point in time, loosely planned by GDT and PJ to be a separate film from The Hobbit. Film Two will focus on a couple of events at some point during the 60-70 year gap between TH and FOTR. Now, if they don't end up scrapping this risky idea and make TH one film, or split it into two, then Film Two will be full of original material, lots of liberties and artistic license.

What could Film Two be about? We've talked about what is available in the Appendixes of ROTK and the likely contenders seem to be Arwen and Aragorn, and Durin's Folk (which briefly covers the White Council / Dol Guldur during The Hobbit). Balin's expedition to Moria is another one people have suggested. It seems a mixture of the White Council / Dol Guldur Necromancer / and Aragorn's becoming Strider and his other adventures would be the best material. However, the time frame for these events is conflicted because the White Council / Dol Guldur stuff happens during the events in TH.

Anyway, we've talked about it all a lot and I wanted to open the discussion up to alternative plots that have little or nothing to do with any of the above. And in order to show a little of the possiblities, I've put together summaries of the four intro plots to Lord of the Rings Online. Each race (Man, Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf) starts in a slightly different area in Eriador and has a slightly different storyline, although they sort of tie together. The purpose in using these as examples is that in creating the entire world of Middle-earth for the MMO game, Turbine had to flesh out a lot of stuff that Tolkien only vaguely touched upon. While its not exactly inspired plotting, it is interesting at least to see minor characters, and original ones being utilized within the events and places of the pre Fellowship period.

I'm not suggesting any of these stories be used in Film Two. But I did want to get people thinking about how completely unexpected the plot to Film Two could be if GDT and PJ feel that something this original is necessary to convey whatever it is that they feel justifies making Film Two as part of a greater story arc. Areas barely touched by Tolkien could be used, along with new characters or for example the sons of Elrond, etc... So without further ado... the spoilers.

LOTRO SPOILERS...

....

....

....

Intro Story for Elves
A flashback to TA 2416 opens with the fictional refuge of Edhelion under attack by a fictional clan of dwarves named the Dourhands who are led by Skorgrim-- who is bent on taking the treasures for himself. A lot of damage is done to the refuge but the elves rally when Elrond arrives to help and the dwarves are pushed back. Skogrim and his forces seize the entrance to Edhelion’s halls, but Talagan the elf sacrifices himself to ensure the relics of Edhelion do not fall into the hands of the evil dwarves.

Flashforwad to TA 3018. The player’s elf character returns to the refuge of Edhelion along with Elrond’s sons and Dorongur Whitehorn. After a series of investigations Dwalin reads a letter that Elohir recovered and learns that the Dourhands pledged to serve Angmar if their fallen leader Skorgrim was restored to life. The player joins Dwalin on a journey into Skorgrim’s tomb where they confront Skorgrim and the Dourhands.

Intro Story for Dwarves

Flashback. Thorin and Company are preparing to leave from the Blue Mountains for the ancestral home of Durin's folk, the Lonely Mountain. Thorin has called together all the dwarves of the Blue Mountains for a final assembly. The player goes to help Gimli round up the dwarves in Silver Deep and finds him attacked by a troll. Gandalf saves the day.

After many years of absence, a party of Longbeards has returned to the Blue Mountains and Thorin's Hall. The Guards of the Silver Deep, led by Olin, are a group of dwarf-guardians charged by Thorin to ensure that the Silver Deep remains undisturbed. The player finds Olin poisoned by the Gourmr of the Dourhands and collects materials to heal him. The elves told Dwalin that Elrohir, son of Elrond, entered the Mirkstone Tunnels near Thorin's Hall to discover more about the plans of the Dourhands. The player rescues Elohir and takes the letter to Dwalin. The story wraps up just like the elf story with the confrontation with the resurrected Skorgrim in his tomb.

Intro Story for Hobbits

The hobbit player has received a worrisome letter from his good friend Celandine Brandybuck from the town of Archet in the Chetwood, east of Bree-town, in which she hints at brigands in the area -- and worse! The hobbit player wrote her a letter, urging her to return, but has not received any response from her because Postman Took will not let his hobbits deliver it in a town that is held up by brigands. The hobbit player must deliver the letter, and as he sets out her finds Bounder Boffin being confronted by a Black Rider asking for Baggins. The rider leaves and Bounder and the hobbit player make their way Old Ordo’s barn to hide, but have to fight through giant spiders to get there. The Black Rider is talking to several human spies on the side of the road before the hobbit player and Bounder are spotted. Before they can be attacked, the elf Gildor Inglorion and a group of Rangers of the North who have been protecting the Shire burst out from the bushes and cause the Black Rider to withdraw. Gildor Inglorion tells the hobbit player to travel with the ranger Amdir who is also heading to Archet to find out what connection the Black Riders have with the Blackwold Brigands.

Intro Story for Man

While travelling through the Chetwood, you were waylaid by Blackwold brigands and taken captive. You now find yourself in a cell, searching for a means of escape. Amdir, a Ranger of the North sneaks into the encampment and explains he was led here while investigating the connection between these men and a Black Rider he has been tracking from the Shire. One of the men from the town of Archet is working for the brigands and has captured two visiting hobbits. Amdir frees the player in return for their help freeing the hobbits.

Hobbit and Man shared plot continuation…

Arriving in Archet, the player and Amdir find that Captain Brackenbrook is preparing a garrison to stave off the brigand attacks. The player discovers there is a traitor among the ranks, but Brackenbrook is too set in his ways and distrusts rangers like Amdir. Helping the defenses of the town and working with Dirk Mudbrick, the player learns that the Blackwold Brigands have sent spies into the town to appraise the situation. Intercepting the orders, the player finds proof that one of the town guard, Calder, is a traitor. Brackenbrook realizes his mistake and sends the player to try and convince his estranged son to return and help in the defense. Jon returns and sends the player to create a diversion at the brigand camp at Blackwold Roost, however the Blackwolds move against the town despite this. The player helps defeat the Blackwolds and their leader, becoming a hero for the town.


(This post was edited by merklynn on Jun 15 2008, 4:57am)


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 15 2008, 5:24am

Post #2 of 28 (580 views)
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BTW... [In reply to] Can't Post

What I'm trying to get at here is that...

1) We could have new characters in lead roles
2) The plot could be based around events removed from the White Council, Dol Guldur, and even Aragorn (although the latter seems most unlikely)

New characters could range from existing Tolkien characters who previously had little to no presence in TH and LOTR (like Frodo's parents for example or Elohir), to slightly better known characters like Glorfindel, Bard, or Balin... or completely made up characters. The latter I am most interested of all in hearing people's reaction to, because it IS possible.

So what do you all think about the possibility that Film Two might be quite an original plot with only a light peppering of appendix material?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 15 2008, 8:01am

Post #3 of 28 (597 views)
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Horrible, horrible idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

F2 is going to be fan-fic at best. The farther it is from basic documented "facts" in the books the less interested most Tolkien fans will be.





Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


mwirkk
Rohan


Jun 15 2008, 10:24am

Post #4 of 28 (588 views)
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Dangers of "artistic license" and the preservation of (world) integrity. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Elizabeth's sentiments. It would be a bad idea to run free with new material, in the name of artistic license.

For one, it would be completely outside of the scope of the intent of the original rights sold by Tolkien back in 1969. Perhaps it could be stretched to fit this scenario, of material "based on" the books. But I think it is certainly outside of the scope of the intent, as I don't imagine JRR dreamed the original material was even filmable, let alone have a situation where new material had to be created.

For another, I think it would be outside the expectations of the viewing public. Using original material from LOTRO would be catering to a strict minority. You not only would upset the older fans, but potentially confuse neophites who only know the material through the movies. Lines would be blurred between what was JRR's original work and what was new.

Finally, when creating new material it is bound to have an inferior fidelity in context with the rest of the Middle-earth legendarium. I am making some assumptions here about LOTRO, as I am not a player or subscriber (yet - work's keeping me too busy to get inviolved with MMORPGs), so I am making some broad statements based on past experience with (even officially sanctioned) expanded worlds/universes. All I know about LOTRO is what I've seen on their web-site. I have followed their developer diaries, and have been quite impressed with its development (I have been for over 25 years very interested in game design). Nevertheless...

My key concern is the integrity of Tolkien's mythology as it exists in interdependence with the languages he created for it. Everything is built up with the trained eye and imagination of a philologist of the highest order, and the discipline of a life-long scholar. If new material with new place names, new character names, new histories and events are to be introduced, I have a hard time believing that they would pass the muster of inspection if Tolkien were still here.

I mean this as no slander to the competence, talent and well meaning of the folks involved behind LOTRO, and certainly not of the capabilities of PJ, GdT, FW and PB. But Tolkien was the master, and he took decades to develop this mythology. The proposal here would encompass only a small fraction of that time. I don't think the result would, or could, be looked upon, ultimately, as able to stand up with the rest of it and to what would be said to *should* have been -- ultimately, like Numenor, cast down into the sea. :(

Perhaps when the 150 year (or is it only 75?) maximum extent of copyrights protection has passed, a time will come when new material may be introduced. All good mythologies get layers and additions built upon them over time, which only servers to enrich them; though, at the cost of obscrring their origins. I just don't think it is time for that yet.

The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!

-mwirkk :)

(This post was edited by mwirkk on Jun 15 2008, 10:32am)


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 15 2008, 3:54pm

Post #5 of 28 (635 views)
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Jim Henson's The Storyteller [In reply to] Can't Post

Just want to make it clear that this route is a possibility, not a personal pitch on my part for what I want to have happen. I want Film Two to be as close to book material as possible, which means from my POV Aragorn's story. But the reality is that even the existing inbetweener material is fairly limited to begin with. It is within the realms of possibility that the filmmakers might choose to do something as extreme as what LOTRO did in making original characters and situations as the major part of their storyline. I'm just posing the question as to what people think of this since it could happen and the LOTRO storylines are just given as examples to show previous attempts at something similar by "professionals" rather than amateur fan fic writers.

Personally, I would probably give such a film a shot, if it had the class of the other films artistically. It would likely still be better than most or all other fantasy films out there. But there is a huge question mark for me over the point of Film Two. Heck, I'd be happy if they made a film four for the trilogy, so that they could fix the omissions of the Scouring of the Shire and find a way of getting Bombadil in there. I'd lap up a Bilbo, or Frodo reading off events and us flashback to them throughout the film, like Jim Henson's Storyteller series. Or have Gandalf telling stories to Frodo like in the Durin's Folk appendeix chapter. It might be an unusual feel for a film, and it might not be popular with the mainstream (or perhaps it could) but I'd still lap it up for the opportunity to see those scenes that were previously omitted.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Time Online, they're sensationalists who haven't a clue about real reporting." - Buddha after reading the Times coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit

(This post was edited by merklynn on Jun 15 2008, 3:57pm)


ryan1976
The Shire

Jun 15 2008, 8:31pm

Post #6 of 28 (518 views)
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Events that take place directly before the Fellowship. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would be cool to see Boromir lead the forces of Gondor in the retaking of Osgiliath. That could really lead into LOTR.


Elven
Valinor


Jun 15 2008, 10:09pm

Post #7 of 28 (511 views)
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I cant see .. [In reply to] Can't Post

the writers detering from the books to the scope of making up material for the second film - for one, F2 will be the last film we see in relation to Tolkien for a while (that is if MGM dont explode the franchise as they made hint to not that far back) ... and it would have to have threads to the first film and FOTR to be a 'seamless transition' as GdT described. Another point I think relevant is that it would be risky (both financially and 'fan'ancially) to detatch the film and make it on plot that was not based Tolkiens work. I have to agree with Elizabeth and mwirkk about integrity of the films.
If they dont feel they can do a second film justice - I know there was talk of not having a F2 - though I think they could expand F1 into F2 without needing to incorporate material which is not in the books.
I am really looking forward to see what they will do with F2 - but I hope the tangents stay with the books.

Cheers Elven x


Were off to Hobbiton finally!

Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!



Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 15 2008, 11:55pm

Post #8 of 28 (505 views)
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The problem is, that directly contradicts the book. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think it would be cool to see Boromir lead the forces of Gondor in the retaking of Osgiliath. That could really lead into LOTR.


In the book, Osgiliath was abandoned over 1,000 years ago. There had just been a battle there, though, at which the Gondorians were decisively defeated and only Boromir, Faramir, and two others escaped by swimming across the river.

There are enough good plot suggestions in the Appendices for a fine movie, without having to make something up.





Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 16 2008, 2:24am

Post #9 of 28 (497 views)
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But most of it will have to be "made up" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
There are enough good plot suggestions in the Appendices for a fine movie, without having to make something up.



I'll give you that... to the extent that yes there is enough to inspire a script from the appendixes, but things will have to be made up. There is not 90 minutes of material in the one or two chapters of the appendixes that are usable. A lot of filling/padding/fanfiction will have to flesh out the film and that will essentially be "made up" material. So how is this made up material any more acceptable than the material material in games and the like? All that is different is that such a film would have a basis from the appendixes, but it would still be largely original material. My thoughts are that it is not impossible for them to "go to town" on film two and introduce a largely original story and set of characters built around or as a sub plot to say... Aragorn, or the White Council. Is this something that fans are prepared to accept?


"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Times Online, they're sensationalists who haven't a clue about real reporting." - Buddha after reading the Times coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit

(This post was edited by merklynn on Jun 16 2008, 2:25am)


ryan1976
The Shire

Jun 16 2008, 2:57am

Post #10 of 28 (491 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think staying true to the books is important, but I think that they should stay true to the movies first and formost since the idea is to create a "symphony" with all 5 films. So...showing things actually happen that are referenced in the LOTR films would be perfectly justifiable. In TTT/ROTK movies Gondor occupies Osgiliath until the forces form Mordor overwhelm them. The TTT extended cut has a great scene in which Boromir has just won a major victory in the city before being sent to Rivendell. The whole dynamic between Denethor and Faramir in the movies surrounds the occupation of Osgiliath and Boromir's fight to keep the borders of Gondor. Denethor een mentions that very fact to Faramir before he leads the doomed attack on Osigiliath...the place that his father sees as where his lost/favorite son fought valiantly and victoriously, and that hos "other" son abandoned. I know that's not exactly how it happened in the books, but these aren't films that are continuing the books, they are prequels/continuations of the film cannon. I think that showing Boromir retake Osgiliath (as referenced in the TTT extended cut) will show Boromir's "quality" and his heroics...which ultimately will contribute to showing the nature of The Ring's power in Fellowship and how it can corrupt even the most noble and valiant man. There would be a better understanding of Boromir's motivation to get the ring and of his will to become a member of the fellowship.


(This post was edited by ryan1976 on Jun 16 2008, 2:58am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 16 2008, 4:43am

Post #11 of 28 (492 views)
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Sure, there are a lot of gaps to fill in. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'd much rather see fan-fic that fleshes out events briefly described in the books than wholly new plots.

It really depends on who they think they're making these movies for. To the extent that they care about Tolkien fans in addition to LotR movie fans, they need to be careful not to offend them too gratuitously.





Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


debo
Rohan

Jun 16 2008, 8:54am

Post #12 of 28 (479 views)
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I'd like to see [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn as Thorongil.

*swoon*

Frodo; "What I chiefly need now is courage . . ."


terrymerry
Rivendell

Jun 16 2008, 7:50pm

Post #13 of 28 (447 views)
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I`m with you Elizabeth [In reply to] Can't Post

I`m with you Elizabeth, just keep Jackson away from mucking around with the story, after all it`s Tolkien who`s the genius...


ryan1976
The Shire


Jun 16 2008, 10:22pm

Post #14 of 28 (457 views)
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Cannon... [In reply to] Can't Post

These films are still being made with the "LOTR film cannon" in mind. Of course PJ,GDT, Fran and Phillippa are going to pull the material of film 2 from The Lord of the Rings and its appendices, but hey also have things that happened and were referenced to form the films. The idea is to match all 5 films up into one large opus. I think they've been pretty clear about that, using the word symphony to describe the goal.

All I'm saying is that it would make a lot of sense for them to show or illustrate moments that are part of the film cannon, such as Boromir fighting at Osgiliath. That WAS part of the LOTR films. Maybe they won't do that, maybe they'll stick entirely to thinks Tolkien specifically wrote. I just think they need to keep the film cannon in line first and formost. I definitely think that the source material should ALWAYS be respected and considered, but they are dealing with the LOTR universe that they helped create. Tolkien was the genius, I don't think that's up for debate by any of the fans or fiimakers. I just think it would be easier and possibly beneficial to connect the films to the LOTR films as much as possible, keep it into their particular adaptation of the universe.

I am very much a huge Tolkien fan and a huge LOTR movie fan! In my world, they are one and the same and also completely separate. I did not and will not get offended by changes made if they are interesting or beneficial or understandable or....whatever.


(This post was edited by ryan1976 on Jun 16 2008, 10:26pm)


ryan1976
The Shire


Jun 17 2008, 12:10am

Post #15 of 28 (443 views)
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Correction... [In reply to] Can't Post

And by "cannon", I mean "canon".

oops.


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 17 2008, 2:48pm

Post #16 of 28 (419 views)
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I wholeheartedly agree! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Times Online, they're sensationalists who haven't a clue about real reporting." - Buddha after reading the Times coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit


Morthoron
Gondor


Jun 17 2008, 4:54pm

Post #17 of 28 (421 views)
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A Freudian slip? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, 'cannon' is more appropriate in regards to Jackson and Boyen's scripting of Lord of the Rings than 'canon'. Their odd bits of shrapnel strafing Tolkien's original plot only diminished the story as would pieces of lead fired from a blunderbuss at a portrait. The films work best when they adhere to the original storyline (even when the dialogue of one character in the book is spoken by another in the film, which worked to great effect). The further Jackson and Boyen's flights of fancy took them from the books, the less coherent and endearing were the sequences in the films. Think of the most jarring and downright silly scenes or characterizations from the film; chances are they were wholly invented for the screenplay (Arwen at the Ford, Aragorn frenching his horse, Frodo offering the Ring to a Nazgul at Osgiliath, Elves at Helm's Deep, Denethor as a blithering psychopath, Elrond's defeatism and whining -- or those scenes that almost made it into the film, such as Aragorn fighting Sauron in single combat, or Arwen as Xena the Warrior Princess at Helm's Deep).

One can only hope that GDT will override Jackson and Boyen's tendency towards unnecessary digressions and divergences and attempt a more faithful rendering of F2. I wholeheartedly agree with Elizabeth regarding the fan-fic nature of the F2 project (and god knows there is enough horrid fan-fic out there -- abounding in half-elves and Galadriel's long lost love-children). The director and producer are straddling a knife's edge when it comes to keeping the interest of Tolkien loyalists. The key will be to maintain the spirit of the original, adhering to known chronology and historical data, and eschewing the type of implausible fluffery and errant storylines that degraded the LotR films.

THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jun 17 2008, 6:38pm

Post #18 of 28 (415 views)
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Well Said!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."



TORn's Observations Lists


ryan1976
The Shire


Jun 17 2008, 7:41pm

Post #19 of 28 (408 views)
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Good points... [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitley understand and appreciate your points. They are very valid! I think this makes for a great discussion.

I'm just looking at this project a little bit differently I guess. It seems like the whole point behind "Film 2" is to create a link or a bridge (even though PJ and GDT both suggested they don't view it that way) to the LOTR films, not to make Lord of the Rings: The Appendices - The Movie. Therefore the film will pull from both the written and filmed versions. I don't think by doing that they will damage or taint Tolkien's works by doing that. Hey, I'm pretty much with you guys, there is plenty of material written that I would love to see as part of that film, I was just expressing that I would like to see some more of the Boromir storyline that was established in the films. I know that's not how it happenend in the book. It was just an idea I had to contribute to possible plot threads of what will be the 5th film.

I love the books, a lot! They have been part of my life for FAR longer than the films have. But I truly didn't really disapprove or dislike anything about how they were adapted to the screen. Sure, there were some parts where I thought "hmm...that was different", but nothing really offended me. I thought everything that was done worked within the univesre that was created. Nothing that was changed took away from my love of the books or my love of the movies.


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 17 2008, 11:37pm

Post #20 of 28 (389 views)
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Don't worry Ryan... [In reply to] Can't Post

You're not alone. There are plenty of folks who enjoy the films for their own merits and enjoy the books. I think it is healthy and necessary to be able to separate the two mediums. If the films didn't work for a viewer because they feel it must adhere far more stringently to the books, then fair enough. But film and book are two different things, just as the the 50 year time span between the writing of the books and the modern era of cinema and video games. With this in consideration, people would do well to remember that most book to film adaptations are miserably unfaithful. With something like LOTR it would have been all too easy for the filmmakers to have strayed much further, and yet they didn't. And the overall effect of the films was to conjure a very serious and realistic world that felt like it had true history and depth, which is possibly the most important aspect of Middle-earth to capture.

I'm a fan of both. Not unconditionally. The films won me over upon my first viewing. But had it been handled with less class and artistic skill then I doubt I would have been so supportive. And for the record, I don't think I would have minded awfully if Arwen had fought at Helms Deep. To be honest that would have been more interesting. Wink Less of a twist than Saruman being killed in Isengard. And at least Arwen as a female elf is trained in battle anyway. Its not as far of a cry as some seem to believe. IMO.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Times Online, they're sensationalists who haven't a clue about real reporting." - Buddha after reading the Times coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit


ryan1976
The Shire


Jun 18 2008, 2:02am

Post #21 of 28 (382 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said Merklynn! That pretty much sums up my feelings as well!


Morthoron
Gondor


Jun 18 2008, 2:26am

Post #22 of 28 (381 views)
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Okay... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But film and book are two different things, just as the the 50 year time span between the writing of the books and the modern era of cinema and video games.



What exactly does the time span between the writing of the book and the 'modern era' have to do with anything precisely?


Quote
With this in consideration, people would do well to remember that most book to film adaptations are miserably unfaithful.



Bad adaptations are not an excuse for further license to commit more atrocities; besides, there are a goodly number of excellent movie adaptations (so I guess someone was paying attention).


Quote
I don't think I would have minded awfully if Arwen had fought at Helms Deep. To be honest that would have been more interesting. Wink Less of a twist than Saruman being killed in Isengard. And at least Arwen as a female elf is trained in battle anyway. Its not as far of a cry as some seem to believe. IMO.



Considering your obvious affection for LotRO (Lord of the Rings Online), a flawed and derivative game more akin to World of Warcraft than Middle-earth (it's rather a bizarre Middle-earth Lite: more Bling, less Tolkien), I can see your relative unconcern for anything canonical. Also, where exactly does it state that Arwen (or any female elf, for that matter) was trained for battle in the 3rd Age? I don't recall any mention of Arwen or her mother, Celebrian (who really could've used the expertise), receiving such training. But I will assume you are joking about Arwen at Helm's Deep, and thank goodness someone on the production staff had the common sense to tell PJ his idea was incredibly dumb. It was bad enough he had Arwen muttering Sindarin at the Ford, and then looking completely surprised when the waves swept away the Nazgul. The Ford of Bruinen section in the book was far more compelling and haunting than the film sequence; in addition, Arwen invoking the flood diminished the true power of Elrond, and for some odd reason Gandalf's witty line about adding the horses was also omitted. As I said previously, it is just another example of Boyens/Jackson scripting that would have played better had they stuck closer to the original plot (read the chapter, watch the movie -- compare).

THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 18 2008, 2:53am

Post #23 of 28 (378 views)
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For me it works, that's my opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Chill friend. I wonder how you say that in Sindarin?

Re: book / film and time.

I am refering to the times we live in. As you may have noticed it is not the 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s anymore, and nature of film making and even book writing has evolved in various ways, making Tolkien's work which was somewhat archaic by choice, ever more so. He did not write an action packed, thrill ride of a book, although there are moments to keep the reader on the edge of the seat. Today's audience, myself excluded, eat up the fast paced, sugar rush plotting of movies more than they ever did. The book, as Christopher Tolkien notes, does not translate well to film due to the non linear plotting of the books 1-6. Frodo and Sam during the TTT for example. The books are also jam packed exquisite detail and tangents. I was talking about the difference between literary storytelling vs celluloid. There are some books that work just fine on film, and others that are complicated like LOTR. The amount of disparity that can exist in storytelling is similar in a way to the amount of evolution that has transpired in storytelling driven by video games and short attention span plotting. Essentially I was trying to say the films were made in a time when the public are even further removed from the more labored and artist pace that Tolkien paints his stories. Culture evolves without mercy and the classics get forgotten. Given that, I think the LOTR film trilogy managed to retain its Tolkien-ness while be accisble to a mass audience. For me it worked.

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Considering your obvious affection for LotRO (Lord of the Rings Online), a flawed and derivative game more akin to World of Warcraft than Middle-earth (it's rather a bizarre Middle-earth Lite: more Bling, less Tolkien), I can see your relative unconcern for anything canonical.



I'll private message you on this since I'm taking more offence than I should. Perhaps I did not state it in this tread, but I did so in another. I have NO affection for LoTRO, I have only ever played the trials. But I did go to great lengths to sit and research and type out my post for this thread analyzing the main storylines as the point of this thread is not to suggest Film Two adopts the tactics of LoTRO, but rather to see what people would think if the same degree of fanfic scripting was brought into the scripting of Film Two. How far can and might they be able to go?

And there is no need to argue your Xenarwen opinion with me when we have both stated where we stand. I see the books as being the books. They are safe. I will get up in arms with a bad director makes a really horrible film that twists Tolkien into something unrecognizable or cheapens almost every concept. But a film for me is just an adaptation. What the film does is its own alternate Middle-earth world. It's not like Tolkien wrote the adaptation for Manwe's sake! This is just how I look at book and film. The film does not fail for me if it differs from the book, it is entitled to. But I won't eat up any old junk that is produced with "Middle-earth" branded on it. It has to be made with quality and care, as the LOTR films were, IMHO only of course.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Most importantly, do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Times Online." - Buddha muses over coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit


ryan1976
The Shire


Jun 18 2008, 8:20am

Post #24 of 28 (375 views)
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Let me clarify. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that both opinions are valid and justifiable. Although I tend to agree with the way in which merklynn sees things (but not entirely, with your thoughts. Ha!)...I understand the concerns and views that Morthoron and others have.

For me personally, I like to keep the books and the movies somewhat separate. I LOVE the books, and nothing is ever going to take away the emotions, memories, connections and joy I get from reading them. They were a HUGE part of my childhood! I LOVE the movies also. They moved me and affected me in such a way that I think they are the greatest films of all-time (in my opinion)! I still get chills and teary-eyed when I merely see the trailers! The changes and rewrites and revisions and deletions didn't take away from that experience at all. I thought it worked out in a glorious way! I actually like how the two formats differ (even though, I do not think that there is that much different about the two), it provides me with two different experiences. I get something different out of each format, but experience the same kind of emotions from both as well. I love them both equally.

The Lord of the Rings, in both book and film form, are entertainment...not politics. They are meant to cause different reactions to those who experience them. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy them, or not to enjoy them. I don't think it's vaild or fair to think lesser of someone because they are a "book-loyalist" or that they "think the movies are perfect". It's that holier-than-thou, "I'm better than you" mentality and attitude that comes form both extreme sides that has kept me away from the message boards for so many years.

My original post about Boromir/Osgiliath was nothing more than an idea I think would be interesting when talking about the plots of the 5th movie belonging to a series or "symphony" of movies. A plot that I think affects the development/motivation of those parties involved, based on how they were portrayed in the LOTR films. That's all.

By the way...I definitely don't think the LOTR trilogy was made for those with a short attention-span!


(This post was edited by ryan1976 on Jun 18 2008, 8:25am)


merklynn
Lorien


Jun 18 2008, 12:30pm

Post #25 of 28 (351 views)
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Double clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

No, I was refering to movies these days and television these days being largely made for people with a lessening attention span. Not LOTR specifically. Morthoron asked me to clarfiy my comparison so I did my best to elaborate upon what I meant. Which was that the attitudes and styles of storytelling have changed / evolved / devolved much in the time that the books were written. It is an ever growing divide.

And I hope I don't come across anywhere as if I am saying the way I view the films and books as separate as being how I think others should/must do so. It's just how I look at the books and films. I acknowledge everyone's right to interpret as they will, but I will present my way of looking at things to counter / balance whenever purists become engrossed in the differences between book and film as being seen only as weaknesses. Smile

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Most importantly, do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in the Times Online." - Buddha muses over coverage of the Tolkien lawsuit

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