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Isis
Bree
Jun 14 2008, 4:43pm
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LOTR Chapter Discussion: The Voice of Saruman – Part Seven
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Thanks to everyone who has taken part this week, I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on this fascinating chapter. This is the final post so feel free to add any other observations or questions you may have.
When Grima hurls down the palantir it actually cracks and splinters the stair it strikes. The damage caused by the palantir may be similar to that inflicted by the Ents, however, the fact that the palantir is unharmed makes me wonder if it had an even greater effect. I was going to ask this in the first post but didn't get round to it:
What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
Is there anything in the way of foreshadowing, at this stage, concerning Pippin and the palantir, in your opinion?
Gandalf debriefs the hobbits, explaining that he had reasons 'some merciful and some less so' for trying to convince Saruman to turn over a new leaf. I wonder which reasons were which? What were his less merciful reasons for getting Saruman to come out?
What does Treebeard mean when he says 'a dwarf and an axe-bearer'? I see that Ents might not like axe-bearers. But is he saying that there is something inherently offensive about dwarves apart from the fact that they carry and use axes?
How is it that Treebeard so underestimates the ability of the Ents to retain Saruman as a prisoner in Orthanc?
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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weaver
Half-elven
Jun 14 2008, 4:53pm
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You did a good job making everyone look into the nooks and crannies of this chapter! I enjoyed reading along, even though I couldn't participate!
Weaver
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 14 2008, 6:48pm
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What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
If that step was made of the same material as the tower, it's very impressive that the Palantir damaged it. It did splinter an iron rail, after all. It's equally impressive that the Palantir didn't shatter: it's described as "crystal", but it's clearly of some more awesome Middle Earth or even Valinorian material.
Is there anything in the way of foreshadowing, at this stage, concerning Pippin and the palantir, in your opinion?
As it bounded away, Pippin ran after it and picked it up.
...
"Here, my lad, I'll take that! I did not ask you to handle it," [Gandalf] cried, turning sharply and seeing Pippin coming up the steps, slowly, as if he were bearing a great weight.
You bet it's forshadowing -- not so much that Pippin ran after it (he was probably glad of an opportunity to be useful), but the fact that Gandalf really didn't want him to handle it, and that Pippin was moving slowly (possibly already enchanted).
Gandalf debriefs the hobbits, explaining that he had reasons 'some merciful and some less so' for trying to convince Saruman to turn over a new leaf. I wonder which reasons were which? What were his less merciful reasons for getting Saruman to come out?
The "less merciful" reasons involve his possible usefulness in the coming struggle. A repentant Saruman would have been a very powerful and useful ally.
What does Treebeard mean when he says 'a dwarf and an axe-bearer'? I see that Ents might not like axe-bearers. But is he saying that there is something inherently offensive about dwarves apart from the fact that they carry and use axes?
Any dwarf is a potential axe-bearer. This dwarf is an active one.
How is it that Treebeard so underestimates the ability of the Ents to retain Saruman as a prisoner in Orthanc?
I assume you meant overestimates? Until seven times the years in which he tormented us have passed, we shall not tire of watching him. What Treebeard underestimates is the power of Saruman's Voice. He hasn't lost as much of his negotiating ability as it seems from the examples here; he will know exactly which of Treebeard's buttons to push when the time comes.
Thanks for a great week, Isis!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 14 2008, 6:48pm)
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drogo
Lorien
Jun 15 2008, 11:26am
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I've had to lurk given a terribly busy schedule, but it was a good week.
The Palantir discussion will start on Monday morning, US Central time (whatever that is in the various time zones represented here!)
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2008, 3:23pm
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Soft rock will not damage hard rock, no matter how hard it is thrown.
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The ents' inability to damage Orthanc may not have anything to do with their strength. Orthanc was simply made of a very hard rock, and softer rocks could not harm it. The palantir, on the other hand, was made of a harder material, and could damage Orthanc even when thrown by Wormtongue. On the other hand, perhaps no amount of chemical analysis could explain the relative hardness of Orthanc and the palantir. Middle-earth is a world of magic, after all.
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 15 2008, 10:43pm
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From another lurker :-)
What does Treebeard mean when he says 'a dwarf and an axe-bearer'?
I think this might be an example of the literary device known as hendiadys. Treebeard could say "an axe-bearing dwarf"; instead he emphasises his disapproval with his iterated nouns. Dwarves are associated with axes, and it is the axe-bearing that attracts Treebeard's particular concern.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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ArathornJax
Lorien
Jun 16 2008, 2:15am
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I've been lurking but not participating as I've been swamped for the last couple of weeks.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jun 16 2008, 2:32am
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I mean, in the Reading Room that is! Really! I'm well known on the rest of TORN but not in the Reading Room...
Just a bit of time to post but...
let me comment on 2 things.
Gandalf's "less merciful" reasons for calling Saruman out. Less merciful in that such humilation is not at all to Saruman's liking. And I've always thought that even the merciful Gandalf would, in that moment, have sinned...he would have taken some delight in bringing his adversary low. But only for a moment. Overwhelming sorrow at the fall of his fellow Maia would have taken over, even as he grimly was satisfied with getting his enemy out of the way.
And Treebeard fearing for the Ents? Simply that the Ents are kind and traditionally non-warlike, hating to hurt any living thing. They are not like their fallen cousins the Huorns, fsr more suited to the task. Thus, they are more open to the guile and danger seduction by The Voice. And being so, they would fall under his spell and thus aid in his escape, not knowing what they did until it was too late.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 16 2008, 4:36am
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Stick around, the more the merrier!
NEB will probably ask for signups for RotK pretty soon.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 16 2008, 6:50am
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What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
Orthanc was fashioned "by builders of old... and yet seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men" ('The Road to Isengard'). And compare to the wall of Minas Tirith "built ere the power and craft of Numenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood" ('The Siege of Gondor').
So I guess that's what might break Orthanc. Gandalf does say: "We cannot destroy Orthanc from without, but Sauron - who knows what he can do?", but that's no contradiction; in 'The Council of Elrond', Galdor said: "we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills".
But the palantir could damage it - since the Noldor were still greater in craft than the Numenoreans. And Gandalf speculates (next chapter) that they were possibly made by Feanor himself - and if he put his mind towards making an unbreakable artifact, it would be stronger than anything the Numenoreans built.
Gandalf debriefs the hobbits, explaining that he had reasons 'some merciful and some less so' for trying to convince Saruman to turn over a new leaf. I wonder which reasons were which? What were his less merciful reasons for getting Saruman to come out?
I think giving him a last chance to repent was merciful; and learning the plans of the Enemy less so - and even more than that, trying to learn how exactly Sauron took Saruman over (which we still don't know).
What does Treebeard mean when he says 'a dwarf and an axe-bearer'? I see that Ents might not like axe-bearers. But is he saying that there is something inherently offensive about dwarves apart from the fact that they carry and use axes?
In The Silmarillion, Yavanna is alarmed by Aule creating the dwarves, and Manwe promises her a power will rise to look after the trees. Although Yavanna was concerned with the Children of Iluvatar as well, the Ents were first and foremost a counter-measure to the possible ravages of the dwarves.
Consider also the 'roll of living creatures' which Treebeard recites:
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as Mountains. Even without trees - the dwarves are described as tose who tear and render the very womb from which the Ents were born!
How is it that Treebeard so underestimates the ability of the Ents to retain Saruman as a prisoner in Orthanc?
I think the Ents could have; they are not that different from Huorns, which are really savage while taking vengeance. Consider the Old Forest - which did seem to hate Men, something which might be explained by the story of Lond Daer, Unfinished Tales, p. 261-263. But that's something for a different discussion - in three years time, when we do 'Treebeard' again, perhaps the leader then will consider this theme as well.
Want Treebeard overestimated is his own ability to imprison Saruman (and Wormtongue) for a long time. Treebeard seems more deserving than Frodo of the epithet "kind to such a degree that it must imply a fair amount of blindness" (paraphrasing fron 'The Black Gate is Closed').
Again, thanks for an excellent job!
"For one thing' in that position one has a chance of putting a question a second time" - Merry
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 17 2008, 5:54pm
Post #12 of 23
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Thanks to everyone who has taken part this week, I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on this fascinating chapter.
And thanks for leading it. Good job. Looking forward to your next.
What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
Aggregated diamond nanorods.
Is there anything in the way of foreshadowing, at this stage, concerning Pippin and the palantir, in your opinion?
Sure.
Gandalf debriefs the hobbits, explaining that he had reasons 'some merciful and some less so' for trying to convince Saruman to turn over a new leaf. I wonder which reasons were which?
Well, picture Saruman turning up at Barad-Dur with a carefully rehearsed cover story and some really juicy but useless information. After getting back in Sauron’s confidence, he breaks into Mordor’s secret files and sends back troop deployments and battle plans to the White Council. It’s extremely risky for Saruman, but, as always, Gandalf is willing to make the sacrifice.
What were his less merciful reasons for getting Saruman to come out?
He wanted to steal his wallet.
What does Treebeard mean when he says 'a dwarf and an axe-bearer'? I see that Ents might not like axe-bearers. But is he saying that there is something inherently offensive about dwarves apart from the fact that they carry and use axes?
Dwarves are crafters of stone and metal. They have minds of metal and wheels. They have no mind for growing things. (The Dwarves were Saruman as he wanted to be.) Plus, as Eru warned Aule, the creation of the Dwarves was not a part of the Music of the Ainur, and so often disharmony would arise between Dwarves and Elves. And so it would be with Dwarves and Ents as well one would assume.
How is it that Treebeard so underestimates the ability of the Ents to retain Saruman as a prisoner in Orthanc?
No wonder since the Ents are so out of touch with their own capabilities.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 17 2008, 11:44pm
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What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
There were a lot of fortresses in the First Age that got wrecked, so I can assume that there are powers that can do it. It would obviously have to involve magic. So let's see what I can come up with.
The W-K breaks open the gate of Minas Tirith with an enchanted battering ram reinforced with lightning invocations. Orthanc obviously has a door; perhaps it could be forced in a similar fashion, even if the tower itself could not.
Barad-dur is destroyed by the unmaking of the One Ring. Orthanc may have an Achilles' Heel in some other magical way.
Galadriel "throws down the walls" of Dol Guldor after the war, and Dol Guldor is probably a pretty well-built fortress (Sauron built it, after all). I wonder what Galadriel used.
Thrangodrim was broken when Ancalagon fell on it.
The previous Minas Tirith crumbled into ruins when Lúthien "declared her power" over it.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jun 18 2008, 6:25pm
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What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
Well, if all the fire shooting up from the pits and whatnot had sufficiently heat-treated the rock of Orthanc...you could probably just drop off a pack of redneck Brotherhood of the Ooga Booga flint-knappers and stand back.
They're always complaining about how good knappable stone is getting harder to come by. =)
(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Jun 18 2008, 6:25pm)
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Saelind
Lorien
Jun 19 2008, 2:47am
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What, if anything, could damage Orthanc?
*An earthquake of catastrophic proportions might do the trick. But I suspect just breaking the door down would be a good start.
Is there anything in the way of foreshadowing, at this stage, concerning Pippin and the palantir, in your opinion?
*Well, Gandalf does seem very quick to get it away from Pippin which indicates it is not some mere crystal.
Gandalf debriefs the hobbits, explaining that he had reasons 'some merciful and some less so' for trying to convince Saruman to turn over a new leaf. I wonder which reasons were which? What were his less merciful reasons for getting Saruman to come out?
*Merciful in that he gave Saruman a chance to redeem himself and the redress the harm he had caused others instead of killing him or “turning him into something unnatural.” Less merciful reason would be so that he could lord over him and do the “I told you so” dance. Also, it’s sometimes a good idea to keep your enemies close. They are less likely to get into any mischief that way.
What does Treebeard mean when he says 'a dwarf and an axe-bearer'? I see that Ents might not like axe-bearers. But is he saying that there is something inherently offensive about dwarves apart from the fact that they carry and use axes?
*Sador put his finger on it by mentioning Yvanna and Aule and the creation of the Dwarves. Also, to a tree, any creature carrying an axe would be considered unwelcome.
How is it that Treebeard so underestimates the ability of the Ents to retain Saruman as a prisoner in Orthanc?
*They got distracted with all their tree work and just didn’t keep as close a watch on him as they should have. Not to mention that Saruman would have had lots of time to work on Treebeard with his voice, despite his loss of power.
I was struck by the lines: “I grieve that so much that was good now festers in the tower. Still for us things have not gone badly. Strange are the turns of fortune! Often does hate hurt itself!” Tolkien repeats that last sentence in different forms several times throughout the story.
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Isis
Bree
Jun 19 2008, 8:12pm
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to teach me something new about language. 
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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xy
Rohan
Jun 20 2008, 11:43am
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I have a question on Saruman in this chapter: his armies were destroyed, Isengard in ruins and he is still stubborn. In a short while, a Nazgul will fly in with some questions on Pippin and the palantir, too. He definitely has no info on the Ring or the Ringbearer.
So why the proud tone with Gandalf ? He was even allowed to go to Mordor if he wanted. What could he possibly have to bargain with ?
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 20 2008, 5:17pm
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Saruman was backed into a corner where every way out necessitated admitting that he was wrong. Some people would literally rather die than face that. So he stayed in his corner.
Yet perhaps he told himself a true thing, that he had the skill to escape on his own terms by wheedling Treebeard by the power of his voice. That might have been his goal--better to escape on his own terms, to then go meet Sauron, than to leave by permission and be suspect as a spy. Except that Sauron fell before Saruman could join him.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 20 2008, 6:58pm
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Remember, he still had the palantir.
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It was only after this scene when Grima threw it down. So, Saruman may have reasoned (if you can call it that) that Sauron would come to his aid somehow and the alliance would still go forward.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:18am
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Thanks, Isis! Two late questions:
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But on that occasion you erred, I think, misconstruing my intentions wilfully.
Does “misconstruing” (or “misconstrue”) appear anywhere else in LOTR?
The Old Ent looked at them [Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli] long and searchingly, and spoke to them in turn.
But then he has doubts about letting Gimli accompany Legolas to Fangorn – did Gimli make a bad impression?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:22am
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The Ents also couldn’t break Orthanc by hand as they could the Ring of Isengard. //
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:23am
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Agreed on “a dwarf and an axe-bearer”.
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Not all Dwarves need wield axes. Not all axe-wielders need be Dwarves. But Treebeard has obvious reasons to dislike those who bear axes; and perhaps, Ents having a fondness for Elves, they have reasons to dislike Dwarves as well. (But it was after LOTR was published that Tolkien inserted the Ents into the story of the ruin of Doriath – and that only in a letter, I think.)
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 5:20pm
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Yes, but my point was that the palantir was harder than Orthanc,
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and therefore could inflict damage that the Ents' missiles could not, no matter how hard they were thrown.
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