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Isis
Bree
Jun 10 2008, 7:03pm
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LOTR Chapter Discussion: The Voice of Saruman - Part Three
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Well?’ it said now with gentle question. ‘Why must you disturb my rest? Will you give me no peace at all by night or day?’ Its tone was that of a kindly heart aggrieved by injuries undeserved.
Well, indeed! It’s not what you say it’s the way that you say it. And I thought that the majority of communication was non-verbal. ;)
The Voice of Saruman always strikes me as being the most explicit demonstration of magic in the story. Not for the effect that it has on anyone in this particular episode but because it reveals how Saruman has managed to bewitch people far and wide and get them doing what he wants them to.
The voice affects each individual according to their wisdom and state of mind. The unwary and those who wish to appear wiser than they are in truth are especially at risk. Some of you thought that Saruman used his voice to subdue to White Council and persuade them toward his way of thinking. I’m not sure about that myself. Can you imagine Galadriel being taken in by him? Elrond had concerns about Saruman’s decision but I’m inclined to put that down more to his own far sightedness than anything Saruman did or said.
The main function of the voice is to manipulate the will of others. Saruman used it to play his enemies off against each other for his own ends. Now he’s been caught in his own web. Next time we’ll look at Saruman’s last attempt to use his voice to get out of trouble.
-Do you think there is a more obvious example of a spell or enchantment in LOTR? If so, what is it?
-Is this a convincing display of magic to you? Is it more credible than someone conjuring light or fire out of nowhere, for instance?
-For those listeners who see through the trick when the voice speaks to someone else – are they now immune to its effects or will they be taken in on another occasion, do you think?
-Do you think Gandalf could do anything like this with his voice? Is it a gift of Saruman’s or could any of the Wise do something like it if they wished to?
-What other thoughts do you have on the Voice of Saruman?
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 10 2008, 7:55pm
Post #2 of 7
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Do you think there is a more obvious example of a spell or enchantment in LOTR? If so, what is it?
The opening of the Gates of Moria is an example of the whole traditional “Open Sez Me” magical routine. One could say it’s just a coincidence that they sway open right at that particular moment after all the pushing and pounding and pulling but there’s a limit on my credulity.
Is this a convincing display of magic to you?
The long distance component sure is.
Is it more credible than someone conjuring light or fire out of nowhere, for instance?
I got a pocket flashlight and a cigarette lighter in my pocket. Sufficiently advanced technology and all that. No doubt there’s some of my ancestors I could impress by creating fire by rubbing two sticks together.
For those listeners who see through the trick when the voice speaks to someone else – are they now immune to its effects or will they be taken in on another occasion, do you think?
It says “But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and commands without effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it.” So I guess it takes continuing effort. Kind of like trying not to fall asleep while someone is droning on and on and on at a long boring meeting. Sure you know he’s boring, and sure you’re doing your best not to doze off, but every once in a while you catch yourself starting to nod asleep. The only cure is a couple of more cups of coffee, a few more sugar candies, or just simply get out of there.
Do you think Gandalf could do anything like this with his voice?
No. But I bet he could do it with his dreams.
Is it a gift of Saruman’s or could any of the Wise do something like it if they wished to?
It’s kind of like they all have different powers. Like a version of “All New Challenge of the Valinor Super Friends”
What other thoughts do you have on the Voice of Saruman?
He couldn’t convince a pelican to take a dive.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2008, 8:41pm
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If we accept the existence of a Spirit Plane,
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then invisibility and immortality aren't as strange as they might otherwise seem. If we accept that words have power, then the power of oaths and magic words and song and Saruman's voice aren't as strange as they might otherwise seem. By the internal rules of Tolkien's fantasy, Saruman's power doesn't break any rules, and indeed is a variation on a theme.
Gandalf may not speak as sweetly as Saruman, but he can use his voice in a devastating manner, as with the Balrog or in Theoden's hall. Luthien's song enchanted Morgoth himself and all the minions of Angband. Sauron before the Fall of Numenor seems to have had powers of persuasion very similar to Saruman's, and perhaps greater. The Ring seems to have similar powers, although it does not use words to communicate. Dragons, too, seem to have such powers, although it helps if the victim looks in their eyes. The elves routinely weave spells of enchantment with their songs, and so does Bombadil in a different manner. Melkor before he became Morgoth also seems to have had such powers. I'm not equating the Elvish art of enchantment with Saruman's lies, of course, or with Gandalf's voice of command, but they are variations on a theme.
On the other hand, as a trial lawyer we speak of magic in the courtroom all the time. The contrast between a live presentation and a transcript can be striking. So to me Saruman's powers of persuasion remind me of great trial lawyers. As someone once said, the secret to success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made. Or on a less cynical note, I prefer to think the secret to a great argument is to believe that your client has a right to have his story heard, sincerely and with passion. But I'm sure there are lawyers who take the more cynical view, and certainly there are people who take cynical view of lawyers and politicians. I have a feeling Tolkien was one of them. Which is why the Master of Laketown, who has no magical powers, reminds me of Saruman and Smaug.
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vtboyarc
Lorien
Jun 11 2008, 12:20pm
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I think, as far as magic goes, Gandalf having to "speak a word of Command" seems more magical. In moria, when he confronts the Balrog. Theres a lot of obvious magic going on there, when Gandalf is trying to close of the door from Balins tomb.
And Gandalf, with his voice, I believe he could, like look how e changed his voice at one point to sound like Saruman.
Theres some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and its worth fighting for.
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Saelind
Lorien
Jun 14 2008, 3:28am
Post #5 of 7
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-Do you think there is a more obvious example of a spell or enchantment in LOTR? If so, what is it?
*I’m wrestling with the difference between “magic” and “enchantment”. To me, the magic in LOTR is more a mechanical thing, an action or an object. Enchantment to me is the otherworldliness found throughout the whole story. The light in Galadriel’s Phial is strong enough to harm Shelob, though this might not be considered “magic” per say. Lothlorien, especially with the difference in the flow of time, is certainly “enchanted”. Is the power of the Nazgul to bring fear and despair to Men, magic or enchantment. I recently read “On Fairy Stories” so these concepts are still somewhat fresh in my mind.
-Is this a convincing display of magic to you? Is it more credible than someone conjuring light or fire out of nowhere, for instance?
*It’s frightening to be sure. It is credible because we have real world examples of people who “enchanted” millions with their words. (Hilter, Mao, Stalin etc.)
-For those listeners who see through the trick when the voice speaks to someone else – are they now immune to its effects or will they be taken in on another occasion, do you think?
*They certainly could. It says, “But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it.” (italics mine) You would have to be in a place of mental strength to be able to overcome the lure of this voice.
-Do you think Gandalf could do anything like this with his voice? Is it a gift of Saruman’s or could any of the Wise do something like it if they wished to?
*Possibly, but the Istari were picked from among various Maia who had different talents and had served different Valar. I imagine that each wizard had some unique traits and that there wasn’t too much overlap. The hope being that they would be able to reach many individuals.
-What other thoughts do you have on the Voice of Saruman?
*The insidious villian is sometimes worse than the overt one. The BBC radio version of this scene is quite well done.
(This post was edited by Saelind on Jun 14 2008, 3:29am)
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 14 2008, 3:06pm
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You're right about the different traits and talents. Gandalf's biggest talents all have to do with fire--everything from playing with magical smoke rings, to setting the fire of inspiration in men's hearts. At one point, when getting wet firewood to burn, he even grumbled something to the effect that doing so advertised for miles around that "Gandalf is here!"
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:15am
Post #7 of 7
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When did Gandalf sound like Saruman? //
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