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Isis
Bree
Jun 9 2008, 7:39am
Post #1 of 17
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LOTR Chapter Discussion: The Voice of Saruman - Part One
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I need to start with a little disclaimer: I’ve been experiencing some technical difficulties recently. I've only just restored my internet connection at home in the past few days. Sadly this coincided with the total failure of my home computer. So this week’s discussion will be pretty basic I’m afraid. As always, feel free to raise any points I’ve skimmed over or failed to mention. Quotes are in italics, questions (mostly) in bold. Let's make a start...
Gandalf, Théoden and the Rohirrim witness the ruin of Isengard en route to Orthanc.
The waters had now nearly subsided. Here and there gloomy pools remained, covered in scum and wreckage; but most of the wide circle was bare again, a wilderness of slime and tumbled rock, pitted with blackened holes, and dotted with posts and pillars leaning drunkenly this way and that.
Gandalf and co meet up with the Fellowship. Gandalf tells them they must go on soon and inquires whether they have rested and refreshed themselves.
‘We have,’ said Merry. ‘But our discussions began and ended in smoke. Still we feel less ill-disposed towards Saruman than we did.’
That first line always sounds odd to me. Why does Merry say their discussions began and ended in smoke? Does he mean that they start and end with them smoking pipeweed? If so, what is the significance of this? Is it a good thing or bad thing? Or does he mean something different? *scratches head* I just don’t get what Merry is implying here.
And they feel less ill-disposed towards Saruman - does he mean him and Pippin? Or is he including Gimli and Legolas too? A bit of pipeweed and some food is sufficient to make them think better of Saruman? Are hobbits more forgiving than other races by nature? Or is Merry simply ignorant of the extent of Saruman’s treachery?
Gandalf announces that he will visit Saruman. ‘Dangerous, and probably useless; but it must be done.’ He invites along any who wish to join him. Gimli says he wants to see if Saruman really looks like Gandalf. ‘And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf? Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?’
How would Saruman achieve this? Would it work in a similar way to the power of his voice? Does Gandalf know that Saruman can do this because of his knowledge of his own powers?
‘What’s the danger?’ asked Pippin. ‘Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?’
‘The last is the most likely, if you ride to his door with a light heart,’ said Gandalf. … ‘And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!’
Is Pippin being entirely serious here? I’m not convinced that he appreciates the seriousness of the situation. And Gandalf warns them about Saruman’s voice: how does he know about it though? Has he witnessed it in action? If so, when do you think that might have been: has Saruman tried to use it on Gandalf, or has Gandalf witnessed other incidents? If so, what/where might these have been
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 9 2008, 10:20am
Post #2 of 17
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Why does Merry say their discussions began and ended in smoke? Does he mean that they start and end with them smoking pipeweed?
Yes.
If so, what is the significance of this? Is it a good thing or bad thing? Or does he mean something different?
No, that's what he means. Merry is making a joke.
And they feel less ill-disposed towards Saruman - does he mean him and Pippin? Or is he including Gimli and Legolas too?
I don't think he is being that precise. He's just making a joke.
A bit of pipeweed and some food is sufficient to make them think better of Saruman? Are hobbits more forgiving than other races by nature? Or is Merry simply ignorant of the extent of Saruman’s treachery?
Hobbits are by nature lighthearted creatures. It is a weakness and a strength. Merry doesn't really think better of Saruman. Again, he's just making a joke.
Gimli says he wants to see if Saruman really looks like Gandalf. ‘And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf? Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?’ How would Saruman achieve this? Would it work in a similar way to the power of his voice? Does Gandalf know that Saruman can do this because of his knowledge of his own powers?
In a sense, Saruman does make himself look like Gandalf. Saruman tries two tactics: first he appeals to Theoden, implying that he and Theoden should meet as lords and decide matters apart from the others, then he appeals to Gandalf, implying that he and Gandalf should meet as wizards and decide matters apart from the others. So in a sense, Saruman does try to look like Gandalf -- i.e. an equal to Gandalf. And although it doesn't work on Gandalf, it does work on the others, who half expect Gandalf to go up in the tower with Saruman. In particular, Saruman's tactics work on Pippin, who feels unimportant and left out and begins to resent not just Saruman but also Gandalf.
‘What’s the danger?’ asked Pippin. ‘Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?’
‘The last is the most likely, if you ride to his door with a light heart,’ said Gandalf. … ‘And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!’
Is Pippin being entirely serious here? I’m not convinced that he appreciates the seriousness of the situation.
No, Pippin is not being serious at all -- and that's the problem. In fact, the palantir is used as a missile and nearly hits Gandalf, then casts a spell on Pippin. Furthermore Saruman's words have an effect on Pippin, who feels small and left out and begins to resent Gandalf. Saruman's words, as well as Pippin's glimpse into the palantir, plant the seeds that leads to Pippin stealing the palantir from Gandalf and using it, with near-disastrous results.
And Gandalf warns them about Saruman’s voice: how does he know about it though? Has he witnessed it in action? If so, when do you think that might have been: has Saruman tried to use it on Gandalf, or has Gandalf witnessed other incidents? If so, what/where might these have been
Gandalf knows all about Saruman's voice. It's hard to tell whether there is anything magic about it, since Saruman retains his powers of persuasion even after Gandalf breaks his staff. Gandalf himself has succumbed, as he admitted to Frodo when discussing his past indecision about the Necromancer and the Ring. Theoden and Denethor were both victims who, until Saruman attacked Rohan, favored Saruman's sweet counsel to Gandalf's harsh warnings. Apparently a majority of the White Council were victims as well, since they believed Saruman when he said the Ring was lost forever. Treebeard was a past and future victim.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 9 2008, 10:22am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 9 2008, 3:04pm
Post #3 of 17
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Why does Merry say their discussions began and ended in smoke?
Because they did.
Does he mean that they start and end with them smoking pipeweed?
Exactly.
If so, what is the significance of this?
It’s a bit of the professor’s own experience coming through. No doubt most of his meetings with his friends began and ended this way. They’d get together, say hello, get out their pipes and tobacco pouches, perhaps pass around a jar of a new blend to try, fill their pipes, tamp the tobacco, singe the top layer, re-tamp, then light the pipe in earnest, all the while talking pleasantries, catching up on the news, and such. By the time they actually got down to the reason they were meeting the room would already be filled with smoke. Then after their discussion they’d finish their pipes, tap them in the ashtray, clean out any residue, all while setting the time and place of the next meeting, getting up, shaking hands, and saying goodbye, again in a room now filled with smoke. Then they step out the door into the clean air outside, like entering another world, a world less warm and close and cozy.
Is it a good thing or bad thing?
Good.
Or does he mean something different? *scratches head* I just don’t get what Merry is implying here.
There’s something ritualistic about pipe smoking. It’s really about more than just the smoking. There’s the feel and smell of the tobacco, the smoothness, shape, and type of the pipe, the various implements for lighting, tamping, and cleaning. Then there’s how you hold the pipe, how you light it, how you inhale, and how you exhale. There’s the “rings”, “wraiths”, and other shapes of the exhaled smoke. There’s a brotherhood there, a bonding of pipe smokers. There are not too many people who have the patience to smoke a pipe.
And they feel less ill-disposed towards Saruman - does he mean him and Pippin?
Yes.
Or is he including Gimli and Legolas too?
Possibly Gimli. Legolas doesn’t smoke.
A bit of pipeweed and some food is sufficient to make them think better of Saruman?
Mainly the pipeweed. After all, Saurman is a fellow pipe smoker. It’s a saving grace.
Are hobbits more forgiving than other races by nature?
Pipe smokers tend to be more thoughtfull.
Or is Merry simply ignorant of the extent of Saruman’s treachery?
They were with the Uruks, and with Treebeard and the Ents all this time. What they heard and saw should be quite sufficient to provide them with full knowledge of Saruman's evil. Even hobbits aren't that dim. If anything, M&P might well be better informed that the rest.
Gandalf announces that he will visit Saruman. ‘Dangerous, and probably useless; but it must be done.’
“He’ll get a fair trial, then we’ll hang ‘em!”
He invites along any who wish to join him. Gimli says he wants to see if Saruman really looks like Gandalf. ‘And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf? Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?’
How would Saruman achieve this?
Old Istari mind trick: “I'm not the Wizard you’re looking for. Move along, move along.”
Would it work in a similar way to the power of his voice?
The voice thing seems to be unique to Saruman. Gandalf doesn’t seem to have it, nor does Radagast.
Does Gandalf know that Saruman can do this because of his knowledge of his own powers?
Probably from various tavern keepers going “Yeah, you rung up quite a bar bill last month buying everybody a round. You going to pay up now?” Not to mention all those farmer’s daughters and tavern wenches tearfully going “How can you act like you don’t remember me????” Identity theft is not something new to the cyber age.
‘What’s the danger?’ asked Pippin. ‘Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?’
‘The last is the most likely, if you ride to his door with a light heart,’ said Gandalf. … ‘And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!’
Is Pippin being entirely serious here? I’m not convinced that he appreciates the seriousness of the situation.
Pippin is riding with the big boys now. He doubtless feels invincible. Or at least he feels he's among invincible people.
And Gandalf warns them about Saruman’s voice: how does he know about it though?
He's Gandalf.
Has he witnessed it in action?
You bet.
If so, when do you think that might have been: has Saruman tried to use it on Gandalf,…
No doubt Saurman gave one of those “Join me on the Dark Side!!” speeches during Gandalf’s imprisonment.
….or has Gandalf witnessed other incidents?
Probably during the White Council. Of course committee meetings put people in suggestible states anyway. How else do you explain the Edsel, New Coke, and the Second Iraq War?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 9 2008, 3:39pm
Post #4 of 17
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I need to start with a little disclaimer: I’ve been experiencing some technical difficulties recently. I've only just restored my internet connection at home in the past few days. Sadly this coincided with the total failure of my home computer. So this week’s discussion will be pretty basic I’m afraid. As always, feel free to raise any points I’ve skimmed over or failed to mention. Quotes are in italics, questions (mostly) in bold. Let's make a start...
You're in good company--lots of people have computer problems during the Mercury Retrograde (astrology stuff--I'm bad, I admit it.)
Why does Merry say their discussions began and ended in smoke? Does he mean that they start and end with them smoking pipeweed? If so, what is the significance of this? Is it a good thing or bad thing? Or does he mean something different?
The conversation began with Gimli demanding to know where they got the Pipeweed. It ended with Aragorn wondering where Saruman got the pipeweed. Merry is just joking around about this, but Tolkien underlines that this question of how a distinctive Shire crop wound up in Isengard matters more than it appears.
And they feel less ill-disposed towards Saruman - does he mean him and Pippin? Or is he including Gimli and Legolas too? A bit of pipeweed and some food is sufficient to make them think better of Saruman? Are hobbits more forgiving than other races by nature? Or is Merry simply ignorant of the extent of Saruman’s treachery?
Welllll, it was more than a bit of pipeweed and food. There was also beer and wine involved. Now I'm not saying they were tipsy, exactly--although long before the movie I did wonder about Pippin, being too "overcome with weariness" (kick!) to rise up and greet a king (sort of like the Mirkwood elves being "sleepy"?) with all those empty bottles among the bowls and platters around them--but Treebeard and Gandalf did think it wise to serve Theoden's company only water, and told Merry and Pippin to scavenge up plenty of food, but not drink, with which to entertain them. Now, this is most unusual for Middle Earth hospitality, and an especially uncharacteristic way to entertain the beer-loving Rohirrim (who do like to "drink in the reek", as Saruman puts it.) Plainly Gandalf and Treebeard wanted to make sure that the Rohirrim weren't even a tiny bit mellow when listening to Saruman. You do not want to be even slightly off your guard around him.
Gandalf announces that he will visit Saruman. ‘Dangerous, and probably useless; but it must be done.’ He invites along any who wish to join him. Gimli says he wants to see if Saruman really looks like Gandalf. ‘And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf? Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?’
How would Saruman achieve this? Would it work in a similar way to the power of his voice? Does Gandalf know that Saruman can do this because of his knowledge of his own powers?
Saruman knows Gandalf so well that he could imitate his every gesture, every facial expression, helped along, of course, by the physical resemblance. If Cate Blanchett, in her forties, could convincingly portray Bob Dylan in his teens, surely Saruman can do Gandalf without even a change of clothes or make-up. His gift is to deceive.
‘What’s the danger?’ asked Pippin. ‘Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?’
‘The last is the most likely, if you ride to his door with a light heart,’ said Gandalf. … ‘And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!’
Is Pippin being entirely serious here? I’m not convinced that he appreciates the seriousness of the situation. And Gandalf warns them about Saruman’s voice: how does he know about it though? Has he witnessed it in action? If so, when do you think that might have been: has Saruman tried to use it on Gandalf, or has Gandalf witnessed other incidents? If so, what/where might these have been
Pippin is being flippant. And Gandalf is finally starting to realize that he made the sort of mistake he normally would be the last one to make: he left the little people (literally and figuratively) out of his calculations. He forgot to tell Merry and Pippin to stick to water, too--or Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn, for that matter--concentrating only on the ones who would address Saruman directly.
Of course Gandalf knows about Saruman's voice. They've been old colleagues for ages. Gandalf has watched Saruman use his voice for the good guys, in the middle of good-guy politics, and for the bad guys--not least when Saruman exerted an all-out effort to seduce Gandalf to the Dark Side, which Gandalf no doubt had a harder time resisting than his description of the encounter might imply, aided only by having seen Saruman in action before, and clinging to his deep-seated awareness of just how drastically wrong Saruman is.
I know mere mortals with that kind of voice. You listen to them, then you go home and slap your forehead, thinking, "Why did I agree to that utter nonsense? Why didn't I call him on at least ten violations of logic and common sense?" But by then it's too late.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 10 2008, 12:55am
Post #5 of 17
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The line between magic and not magic
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is a very thin one, I think.
Saruman is a Maia inhabiting an essentially Human body, which means that as a Maia he has certain powers. Obviously, his staff has some powers as well, but does it amplify what he can do, or does it provide the ability to do something else?
Anyway, Saruman has other powers also. He implies, in the Scouring of the Shire, that he could take on a lot of the hobbits in a straight fight, until Grima betrays him and slits his throat. I think the distinction between magical charming of the Voice and just being very eloquent and persuasive is very blurry. But believably blurry, which indicates yet again Tolkien's skill as a writer!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Saelind
Lorien
Jun 10 2008, 3:13am
Post #6 of 17
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I've been away far too long...
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Attempting to get my brain working again so I can lead next month.
That first line always sounds odd to me. Why does Merry say their discussions began and ended in smoke? Does he mean that they start and end with them smoking pipeweed? If so, what is the significance of this? Is it a good thing or bad thing? Or does he mean something different? *scratches head* I just don’t get what Merry is implying here.
*I agree with several others who said that Merry is talking about pipeweed. I suspect for the Hobbits, smoking the pipeweed adds a touch normalcy to an otherwise chaotic and bizarre situation. It may seem frivolous but it grounds the Hobbits in a way nothing else would.
And they feel less ill-disposed towards Saruman - does he mean him and Pippin? Or is he including Gimli and Legolas too? A bit of pipeweed and some food is sufficient to make them think better of Saruman? Are hobbits more forgiving than other races by nature? Or is Merry simply ignorant of the extent of Saruman’s treachery?
*Well, a guy has who stocks high quality pipeweed can’t be all bad, right? No, I think Merry is using jest to cover up what he really means, like he does later in ROTK when he asks Aragorn where his pack is.
Gandalf announces that he will visit Saruman. ‘Dangerous, and probably useless; but it must be done.’ He invites along any who wish to join him. Gimli says he wants to see if Saruman really looks like Gandalf. ‘And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf? Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?’
How would Saruman achieve this? Would it work in a similar way to the power of his voice? Does Gandalf know that Saruman can do this because of his knowledge of his own powers?
*The power of persuasion and a really high charisma score!  Gandalf knows and has experienced Saruman’s powers of oratory and darn near succumbed himself. And he is one of the Wise who knows better.
‘What’s the danger?’ asked Pippin. ‘Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?’
‘The last is the most likely, if you ride to his door with a light heart,’ said Gandalf. … ‘And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!’
Is Pippin being entirely serious here? I’m not convinced that he appreciates the seriousness of the situation. And Gandalf warns them about Saruman’s voice: how does he know about it though? Has he witnessed it in action? If so, when do you think that might have been: has Saruman tried to use it on Gandalf, or has Gandalf witnessed other incidents? If so, what/where might these have been?
*As Darkstone notes, Pippin is in exalted company and does not feel threatened. Not to mention, he was on the winning side. He thinks that Saruman is completely defeated. Also, he and Merry have rarely encountered someone who is determined to deceive them. Most of their experience has been with the honest and forthright hobbits of the Shire and the Fellowship.
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Isis
Bree
Jun 10 2008, 7:36am
Post #7 of 17
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that his staff has any powers, so to speak. I see them more as a symbol of their office.
Does anyone have any examples of the Istari seeming to use the staff directly to perform 'magic'?
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2008, 11:21am
Post #8 of 17
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Gandalf broke his staff when confronting the Balrog.
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And Gandalf also seems very intent on bringing his staff with him when he meets Theoden, much to Wormtongue's dismay. A staff is not the easiest item to carry around, yet the wizards seem to think it important. If they wanted a purely symbolic object, I would think they would pick something more portable. I'm not saying the staves contained all of their power -- I agree that there was more to what Gandalf did than breaking Saruman's staff -- but the wizards do seem to treat their staves as important tools, and not just symbols of office or random sticks.
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Isis
Bree
Jun 10 2008, 12:54pm
Post #9 of 17
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I like that.
Gandalf certainly seems to use his staff much in the way of a walking stick when he's travelling around, so it would seem to be more a help than in hindrance in practical terms alone.
In Moria the staff broke after Gandalf smote the bridge with it. One could argue that it was merely physical damage to the staff which caused it to break. In Edoras, Gandalf appears to cause the hall to darken (and the thunder to roll) when he raises his staff. Again, one could argue that he could have timed his actions to coincide with a coming storm, much the same way as magical beings utilised the solar eclipse as a demonstration of their power in ages past. If one wanted to play devil's advocate then it's not too great a stretch to refuse to recognise any direct use of the staff in magic/casting spells.
Or, one could just say: alright then, the wizard used his staff to produce physical manifestations of his power. Sometimes. 
I don't have any fixed ideas about the purpose and usage of the staff in LOTR. Tolkien has made it fairly ambiguous too, something I heartily approve of. I can accept it as a tool for focusing power or possibly to enhance the effects of power. But I'm leaning more toward additional effect rather than it being essential to the power of the Istari.
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 10 2008, 2:17pm
Post #10 of 17
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 10 2008, 4:20pm
Post #11 of 17
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Aragorn does not need a sword to fight, but it sure helps an awful lot. Gandalf and Saruman do not need staffs to do their magic, but life is so much easier with them than without them.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Jun 10 2008, 5:36pm
Post #12 of 17
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All of Tolkien's magic is like that.
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There is (almost) nothing that Tolkien's magic does that could not be explained in a series of so unlikely as to be unbelievable coincidences. The problem is that these coincidences are so regular that the most parsimonious explanation, by far, is that Middle Earth is a highly magical world!
The obvious exceptions that I can think of are a handful of the powers of the One Ring: invisibility, and immortality. But everything else, from using the One Ring to charm/dominate/curse/prophecy people to the cataclysmic devastation that occurs when the Ring is destroyed can be explained in nonmagical terms, if you want to ignore any statistical trends.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Isis
Bree
Jun 10 2008, 7:05pm
Post #13 of 17
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extremely well in my opinion.
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Isis
Bree
Jun 10 2008, 7:10pm
Post #14 of 17
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just grab some random sticks and away you go! Anyone can be a wizard these days. :)
Actually this reminds me of Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones where the heroine does exactly that.
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:13am
Post #15 of 17
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Merry and Pippin, like Gandalf, have been Saruman’s prisoners. //
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:13am
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Nice point about Pippin’s jokes as unintentional prophecy. //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:13am
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Agreed on the meaning of Merry’s “smoke” remark. //
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