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Posting entire text of articles by third parties?

Smeagirl/Girllum
Gondor


May 28 2008, 12:15pm

Post #1 of 15 (449 views)
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Posting entire text of articles by third parties? Can't Post

Lately I've noticed a lot of posts where the poster has copied 'n' pasted an entire article from another site, instead of just posting a link to the article. This is bothering me -- aside from being copyright infringement, it's not good netiquette, as it's taking hits away from the original source. If a third-party site is going to write an article about Tolkien or one of the movie actors, they should be rewarded with hits, not just have their content ripped off and posted here.

There might be some (moral, if not legal) justification if the article isn't otherwise available online, or is password protected or something, but if the article is freely available online I think people should post a link to it, not copy and paste the whole thing.

I just skimmed the TORn TOS and FAQ's and didn't see anything about this. If the mods agree with me, maybe something about this could be added?

Thanks.

"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in mischief."



diedye
Grey Havens


May 28 2008, 12:37pm

Post #2 of 15 (333 views)
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The reason I do this... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is because some people (like myself), can't link to the original article because they're blocked by some sort of filter or for whatever reason (*cough*@#$%&! computer*) and I don't think they should miss out on whatever everyone else is enjoying.

I do try to post the link at the end of the article, though, but sometimes I am in such a rush that I forget.

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Smeagirl/Girllum
Gondor


May 28 2008, 12:50pm

Post #3 of 15 (323 views)
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What kind of filter [In reply to] Can't Post

allows access to TORn but not legitimate news sites, which is what most of the articles are from?

BTW, I wasn't singling you out -- I've seen other people do this too.

(And I do appreciate your enthusiastic Googling! :-)

"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in mischief."



diedye
Grey Havens


May 28 2008, 1:37pm

Post #4 of 15 (323 views)
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Barracuda... [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd be surprised as to what that sucker will block. Mad

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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


May 28 2008, 5:32pm

Post #5 of 15 (299 views)
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Dunno, but [In reply to] Can't Post

others were complaining about the same thing recently in another fandom. Work filter won't let them near the usual suspects OR legitimate news sites. Not even AOL welcome page. *shrug*

Those boards encourage hits from the access-enabled, but allow quotes for conversational purposes. *cough*Although sometimes the whole thing is posted so as not to reward cheap ploys and shoddy "journalism" with hits from the rabid and curious.*cough*

(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on May 28 2008, 5:33pm)


acheron
Gondor


May 28 2008, 6:00pm

Post #6 of 15 (307 views)
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my work filter [In reply to] Can't Post

blocks most sites that have any sort of streaming video (for bandwidth issues mainly, I'm guessing) which includes some news sites. There was some article a month or so ago that I couldn't get to and asked for someone to copy/paste.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Eledhwen
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 28 2008, 8:05pm

Post #7 of 15 (307 views)
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Can you try and remember to post the link? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a good point Smeagirl's raised, particularly as last year we asked people not to post whole chunks of books in their posts. I tend to think a newspaper article posted online is different from a book (and as a journalist I know I'd be thrilled if I knew more people were reading my stuff) but having the link there is pretty important I think.

But it's weird that a firewall should block news sites.

Sydney Opera House, Australia, April 2008

Sydney Opera House


Kelvarhin
Half-elven


May 29 2008, 1:48am

Post #8 of 15 (305 views)
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I have the same problem as diedye [In reply to] Can't Post

not sure what filter my server uses but some sites just don't come up so the only way to post the information is a direct paste onto the boards. Maybe if we make a note of that at the end of the post as well as trying to put a link in?


There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay

Kelvarhin's Universe


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


May 29 2008, 3:24am

Post #9 of 15 (900 views)
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*points to bottom of page* ---> REVISED <--- [In reply to] Can't Post

Please note that I've revised my previous post.

The "Fair Use Clause" of copyright law (link at the bottom of the page), states, in part:


Quote

the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright (more at the link below).



So, in general, many things are perfectly fine to copy, especially if it's being used for educational or discussion purposes. Also in general, this applies even more to items posted on the internet for general public use (e.g. without specific restrictions and or warnings). As I mentioned in my post below, many news sites know and even encourage us to post about their articles.

However, the devil (as always) is in the details. Some sites may restrict certain use of their material in their own Terms of Service. The only way of knowing which sites do this is, of course, to read their Terms of Service. The alternative to doing that for every article cited here (by us or by users) is to only post part of the article (if any) and always include the original source and, preferably, a link to the source. This is always our practice on the Home Page.

The message boards are a different animal, because it's our users, not TORn, who are posting items. We (TORn) protect ourselves as much as we can by taking down items when asked, and by posting policies like the sticky in the RR about quoting copyrighted text. And, as of now, because this whole issue is very "fuzzy" we are going to ask that people not post any articles in their entirety (and will add it to our Terms of Service - adds to 'to-do' list). This is actually in our users' best interest too, because it *is* fuzzy as to who might be violating someone's copyright at any given moment in time.

It should be clear, too, that because users might be at risk, it's up to them to protect themselves by being cautious and even looking into copyright terms in specific cases of things they may want to quote; it's not up to TORn to protect them.

As I mentioned below, in 9 years we have a great track record, both on the Home Page and on the boards. If we keep working together we can keep it up for another 9 years! Smile

Thus ends today's public service announcement. You may return to your regular browsing. Laugh


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar

(This post was edited by Altaira on May 31 2008, 4:20am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 29 2008, 4:23am

Post #10 of 15 (345 views)
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Hmm. To take your "Variety" example [In reply to] Can't Post

...if TORN copies the entire Variety interview with del Toro, isn't TORN cheating Variety out of subscription or advertisement revenue? I note that the U.S. Code posted at the Cornell U. Law School site, to which TORN links and you have pointed, says that one factor determining whether copied material qualifies as fair use is "the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole". But I have no idea myself, and defer to those more knowledgable.

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diedye
Grey Havens


May 29 2008, 12:17pm

Post #11 of 15 (287 views)
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Not always... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do get forgetful in my old...uh... ER age.

Tongue

I hope y'all will forgive me if I do forget. If I do, I hope someone will either remind me or post the link themselves. I'll try my best to do it myself, though.

(But since I've now arrived in Gondor, I may be distracted with other more pleasant duties.... *cough* Evil Angelic)

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(This post was edited by diedye on May 29 2008, 12:20pm)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


May 29 2008, 3:24pm

Post #12 of 15 (272 views)
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I'm certainly no attorney [In reply to] Can't Post

All I know is that the entire nine years TORn has been around we've been posting magazine and e-zine articles and not once to my knowledge has it been an issue. On the contrary to your point, I believe it's had the opposite effect. People seek out those issues as collector's items. For eveyone who's willing to live with a slightly fuzzy scan of an article, there are more people who will seek out that issue and buy it.

We *have* been asked to take some stuff off the message boards, but that's involved substantial quotes from books or articles that aren't really in the public domain (e.g. not posted on public forums on the internet, parts of anthologies, papers given at conferences).

I'll also repeat that we're always careful on the Home Page to cite the original source and provide a link. More often than not, we can't fit the entire article on the Home Page anyway, and always provide that "Read More" link to the source.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar

(This post was edited by Altaira on May 30 2008, 7:27pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 29 2008, 3:51pm

Post #13 of 15 (285 views)
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Thanks for the explanation! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 16 2008, 9:49pm

Post #14 of 15 (413 views)
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I see the AP has complained about this sort of thing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently the Associated Press lately has been going after blogs that copy their news stories. See this post. An excerpt:


Quote
Quite often, blog posts — including those at OTB — that build from content created by the AP, NYT, WaPo, and others will wind up ranked higher in Google than the original content. This is due to the inter-linking that blogs do, the nature of permalinks, and a variety of factors that I don’t truly understand. It’s not hard to see why the AP would be irritated by that fact. If someone looking for information on the latest breaking news winds up at a blog that’s excerpting AP content rather than on a site displaying advertising that the AP is getting paid for, we’re costing them money.



However, the AP is "backing down".

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 19 2008, 10:36pm

Post #15 of 15 (245 views)
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Some fascinating follow-up [In reply to] Can't Post

...at Making Light.

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