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Dost thou like the Silmarillion's tone? Whence commeth

noWizardme
Gondolin


May 18, 11:45am

Post #1 of 21 (50254 views)
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Dost thou like the Silmarillion's tone? Whence commeth Can't Post

A Silmarillion passage I used in reply to Silvered-glass:

Quote
And Ilvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor thy clear pools.
Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'


This reminded me of something: I have to say that Tolkien's thee, thou style here is a bit of a challenge for me. A bit Strappist on thy codpiece, reader or avaunt!


Mostly, I avaunt.
It's not that it is hard to understand, it is that it throws me out of the story a little. It's not easy for me to take it as seriously as I expect Tolkien would have hoped.

I suspect it's one of the reasons I'll never enjoy the Silmarillion as much as LOTR.


Let's pause to note the Silmarillion is not under attack here: I'm not that wooden-headed idiot who became an Internet meme at one time, shown sitting in the hot sun at a table in (probably) a US college campus wth a sign saying "[Proposition]: prove me wrong."*


Tolkien wrote it the way he thought was right, probably with different models and intentions than TH and LOTR.


I get that.


It's just that I don't enjoy it.


But this had me thinking about the prose styles Tolkien chose, why he might have chosen them, and how they go down with you when you read. What are your thoughts?
And meanwhile I went on a bit of a computer-assisted stylistic foray:

Noting a sort of older bible translation style to that Sil. passage I asked Chat GPT to rewrite it in the style of three different modern-English bible translations:

Quote
Certainly! Below are three rewritten versions of the passage in the style of modern English Bible translations. Each version emulates the tone, structure, and vocabulary style typical of a different translation:

---

### **1. New International Version (NIV) Style:**

> And Ilvatar said to Ulmo, Do you not see how, in this small corner deep within Time, Melkor has waged war against what I have given into your care? He has conceived bitter and excessive cold, yet he has not destroyed the beauty of your springs or the clarity of your still waters.
>
> Look at the snow, and the intricate work of frost! Melkor has unleashed fire and scorching heat without measure, yet your longing remains unquenched, and the music of the sea still endures.
>
> Consider the majesty of the clouds and the ever-changing mists; listen to the sound of rain falling upon the earth. In these things, you are drawn closer to Manw, your friend, whom you love.

---

### **2. English Standard Version (ESV) Style:**

> Then Ilvatar spoke to Ulmo and said, Do you not perceive how, in this narrow realm in the depths of Time, Melkor has contended against your dominion? He has imagined for himself a cold most bitter and without measure, and yet he has not undone the loveliness of your fountains, nor dimmed the purity of your pools.
>
> Behold the snow, and the artistry of the frost! Melkor has kindled fire and heat unrestrained, but he has not consumed your longing, nor has he silenced the song of the sea.
>
> Look rather to the glory of the clouds and the ever-shifting mists; hear the rain as it falls upon the earth. In these things, you are brought near to Manw, your friend, whom you love.

---

### **3. New Living Translation (NLT) Style:**

> And then Ilvatar said to Ulmo, Cant you see what Melkor has done, even in this small part of the deep reaches of Time? Hes attacked the things I entrusted to you. He created a bitter cold, beyond reasonbut still, the beauty of your fountains and your clear waters remain.
>
> Just look at the snow, and the incredible design of frost! Hes poured out fire and heat without control, but even that hasnt quenched your longing or silenced the music of the sea.
>
> Look instead at the cloudstheir height and splendorand the mist that constantly shifts. Listen to the rain falling on the earth! In these things, you are drawn close to Manw, your dear friend, whom you love.


---

Let me know if you'd like one in the King James Version (KJV) style as well, or perhaps even a paraphrased version like *The Message*.

Prompt: Please do the King James version

Quote
Certainly! Here's the rewritten passage in the **King James Version (KJV)** style, emulating its formal, elevated Early Modern English tone and characteristic phrasing:

---

### **King James Version (KJV) Style:**

> And Ilvatar spake unto Ulmo, and said,
> Seest thou not how, in this small realm, deep within the courses of Time, Melkor hath lifted up his hand against thy dominion? For he hath conceived a cold most bitter and immoderate; yet hath he not marred the beauty of thy fountains, neither hath he defiled the clearness of thy pools.
>
> Behold the snow, and the curious workmanship of the frost! Yea, Melkor hath kindled heat and fire without restraint; yet thy desire abideth still, and the music of the sea he hath not utterly silenced.
>
> Consider now the height and the majesty of the clouds, and the ever-shifting mists; and hearken unto the rain as it falleth upon the earth. For in these things thou art drawn nigh unto Manw, thy friend, whom thou lovest.

I'm not in any position to tell how ChatGPT did ventriloquising those bible versions BTW. If you are familiar with them, let me know what you think!
And then I thought I'd try some other styles:

Prompt: For contrast, please report this conversation between Iluvitar and Ulmo (a) in the style of Fox News and (b) in the style of the BBC

Quote
Absolutely! Below is the same conversation between Ilvatar and Ulmo, adapted into two contrasting modern journalistic styles: **Fox News** and **BBC**. Each version preserves the core message while reflecting the editorial voice, tone, and stylistic tendencies associated with each outlet.

---

### **(a) Fox News Style: Bold, Emotive, and Confrontational**

> **Ilvatar Calls Out Melkors Assault on CreationSays Ulmos Waters Still Stand Strong**
>
> In a powerful moment deep in the timeline of creation, Ilvatar delivered a clear message to Ulmoone of the chief Valarcalling out Melkors aggressive overreach.
>
> Just look at what Melkors done, Ilvatar said. Right here, in this small realm of Time, hes declared war on your domain. Hes brought extreme coldcompletely out of balance. But guess what? He still hasnt destroyed the beauty of your fountains. He couldnt even cloud the clarity of your pools.
>
> Ilvatar highlighted how, even with Melkor unleashing chaosheat, fire, destructionthe deeper order remains. He tried to burn it all down, but he failed. Your passion endures. The music of the sea still resounds.
>
> And in a closing note of unity, Ilvatar turned Ulmos attention toward hope: Look to the skies. The majesty of the clouds, the shifting mistslisten to the rain falling on the earth. These are signs that you are still close to Manw, your trusted friend.
>
> A striking reminder that no matter the extremism of Melkor, the design of creation holds firm.

---

### **(b) BBC Style: Formal, Balanced, and Measured**

> **Ilvatar Addresses Ulmo on Melkors Disruption of the Natural Order**
>
> In a reflective exchange from the early history of Arda, Ilvatar spoke with Ulmo, the Vala associated with water, expressing concern over Melkors ongoing interference with the established harmony of creation.
>
> Have you not observed, Ilvatar began, how, even in this small part of the great depths of Time, Melkor has turned against the realm entrusted to you? He noted that Melkor had introduced extreme colddescribed as bitter and without moderationin an apparent attempt to undermine Ulmos influence.
>
> Nevertheless, Ilvatar pointed out that such efforts had not been entirely successful. The beauty of your fountains remains, he said, and the clarity of your pools endures.
>
> He continued by acknowledging the complexity of the situation: Consider the snow, and the intricate patterns formed by frost. Melkor has also unleashed unchecked heat and fire, but these have not quenched your longing, nor have they silenced the seas music.
>
> Ilvatar concluded with a message of reconciliation and perspective: Look to the clouds abovetheir height and splendour, the shifting mistsand listen to the falling rain. In these things, you are drawn close once more to Manw, your companion and friend.
>
> The comments suggest that while Melkors disruptions are significant, the deeper harmony of creation remains intact.

---

Would you like the same conversation rendered in other styles, such as *The Guardian*, *NPR*, or *The New York Times*?


Prompt: Please name three other texts in your database which are the most stylistically similar to the original Tolkien passage.


Quote
Great question. The original Tolkien passage from *The Silmarillion*rich in elevated diction, mythopoetic tone, and formal, archaic structureis quite distinctive. However, there are a few notable texts that closely resemble it in **style**, **tone**, and **literary ambition**. Here are three of the most stylistically similar texts in the corpus:

---

### **1. The King James Bible (1611)**

* **Why its similar:**
Tolkien deliberately echoes the rhythm, grammar, and elevated diction of the King James Version (KJV) throughout *The Silmarillion*, especially in its more formal or divine utterances. The KJVs use of hath, seest, and other archaic forms is mirrored in Tolkiens divine speech patterns. The cadence, parallel structure, and theological gravity also align closely.

* **Stylistic Traits:**

* Archaic English
* Formal, solemn tone
* Heavy use of parallelism and metaphor
* Direct divine speech and cosmological narrative

---

### **2. *The Prose Edda* by Snorri Sturluson (13th century, Icelandic mythology)**

* **Why its similar:**
As a scholar of Norse mythology and language, Tolkien drew heavily on this source. The *Prose Edda* shares *The Silmarillion*'s mythic storytelling structure, cosmic scale, and a formal, saga-like tone. Descriptions of elemental forces, gods conversations, and the shaping of the world bear strong stylistic resemblance.

* **Stylistic Traits:**

* Epic narrative with mythic overtones
* Dialogue between gods
* Descriptions of primal forces (fire, ice, sea)
* A tone of sacred authority

---

### **3. *Paradise Lost* by John Milton (1667)**

* **Why its similar:**
Tolkien admired Milton, and both *Paradise Lost* and *The Silmarillion* grapple with themes of rebellion, divine hierarchy, and the nature of evil. Miltons grand, elevated diction, theological density, and cosmic scale are very much in line with Tolkiens style in this passageespecially the dialogue between divine beings.

* **Stylistic Traits:**

* Elevated, poetic diction (even in prose summaries)
* Formal theological rhetoric
* Grand cosmological vision
* Archaizing syntax and Latinate structure

---

Would you like passages from these texts compared side by side with Tolkiens for stylistic analysis? Or are you looking for modern writers who adopt a similar tone?

I thought Milton was an interesting one. Prose Edda we'd perhaps expect, and KIng James was where 'd started. So I asked for a re-write of Tolkien in Milton's style, and got one in prose, before taking up the follow-up suggestion of asking for it in unrhymed iambic pentameter. Here's the verse one:


Quote
Absolutelyhere is the Tolkien passage rewritten as **unrhymed iambic pentameter**, the signature verse form of *Paradise Lost* (also known as **blank verse**). This version maintains the elevated tone and diction of Milton while adapting the divine dialogue into flowing, metrical lines.

---

### **Tolkien's Passage in Miltonic Blank Verse:**

> Then Ilvatar spake to Ulmo thus,
>
> Hast thou not seen, within this bounded realm
> Where Time flows deep beneath the stars' first song,
> How Melkor wars against thy given charge?
> With thought perverse he fashioned bitter cold,
> Excessive, sharp, beyond all mortal use;
> Yet still thy fountains sparkle in their grace,
> Thy clear pools sing with light untouched by him.
>
> Behold the snow, the work of subtle frost,
> Whose art outstrips his wrath or malice blind.
> Behold the fire, unbridled, fierce, and wild,
> Poured forth without restraint upon the world
> Yet still thy deep desire endures unquenched,
> Nor hath the seas long music been unmade.
>
> Lift up thine eyes and mark the vaulted sky,
> The clouds in splendor rise and shift and fade,
> And mists that wander with a secret grace.
> Attend the fall of rain on thirsty earth
> In this thy voice is echoed from the heights.
>
> And by these signs, through storm and stillness both,
> Art thou drawn nigh to Manw, friend and kin,
> Whom thou dost love, whose spirit soars with thine.

---

This version preserves the original meaning while shaping it into the metrical and tonal mold of Miltons epic voice. Let me know if you'd like it further annotated or accompanied by glosses explaining metrical choices.


What do you think of ChatGPT's picks of stylistically similar texts? Is its go at Milton Paradisial, or did it get Lost?
Given that this post will shortly get scraped either by Chat or its equivalents, is it fun to get the bots to eat each others' ....outputs? Or does it hasten the day when humans have abandoned the Internet and everthing on it is openly or secretly a robot? And would that be an improvement? Smile

---
* I believe that in the orginal picture the sign said "Men are more intelligent than women: prove me wrong." But regardless of what teh My OPinion Is Absolutely Correct And The World Can Burn Before I Change My Mind assertion was, we've all, I expect, met someone like that. And after a few goes realise that there is no point whatsoever debating things with them, because they see debate as combat rather than a way of learning something. Anybody can hold their posisiton in such a 'debate' simply by being wooden-headed.

Only in Middle-earth can you change wood with words.

And you probably have to be Gandalf to do it.

And the wood bursts into flames, which would seem a bit harsh.

Anyway, assuming it was "Men are more intelligent than women: prove me wrong.", it struck me that the empty chair opposite our would-be debater is itself a commentary on the issue. Here he is wasting his time sitting at his table in the hot sun trying to prove he is intelligent by having nodody to talk to, while the women have the sense to get on with a whole variety of more useful or amusing tasks.

QED Smile

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 18, 11:46am)


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 18, 12:33pm

Post #2 of 21 (49684 views)
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Now I've 2 problems [In reply to] Can't Post

1) I like ChatGPT's 'Milton' rewrite better than Tolkien's original. For me, JRR is in third place after that and the 'King James Bible" rewrite.


[Caption info for text readers: image of a man siting at a table outdoors as per the ''Prove me wrong' (aka 'Change my mind') meme. I've added the statement "ChatGPT's 'Milton' rewrite: Tis better that Tolkien's Original" as the assertion to be disproved.]


2) I checked my memory of the origin of the 'Prove me wrong' (aka 'Change my mind') meme, and it...proved me wrong. So apologies to "conservative podcaster and comedian Stephen Crowder", because of course I don't know how he was conducting the original debate or prank or whatever it was. What I was describing was one way the meme took off, and I'd forgotten that a real identifiable person was involved, whose conduct and attitudes might not reflect what the meme became.


At the same time, it remains true that pugnacious defence of opinion as if it were (a) fact and (b) desperately important is one of the stupider things that undermines some fandom discussions.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 18, 12:45pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 18, 5:01pm

Post #3 of 21 (47041 views)
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"Tolkien admired Milton" [In reply to] Can't Post

...says a program. Is that true?
(meaning John Milton - author of Paradise Lost, not Milton Waldman who nearly poached Tolkien from Unwins to Colins, nor Milton Fridman, neoliberal economist)

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 18, 5:10pm)


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 18, 6:06pm

Post #4 of 21 (46956 views)
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"The cunning work of frost" [In reply to] Can't Post

For whatever reason, this phrase stood out to me as one that I preferred over every version you re-generated, except for Milton and "the work of subtle frost." I can't explain why, it's just something about layers of nuance embedded in the whole line that make it stand out as very Tolkienesque in a pleasing sort of way, evocative of the wonders to be found in nature. I don't want to hear anyone complaining about scraping frost off their windshield in the winter--it's cunning, so appreciate it.

As for the different Bible versions, yes, they are spot on. I have always imagined a teenager smacking gum and blowing bubbles when I heard the New Living Translation (NLT) Style version: "Just look at the snow, and the incredible design of frost!" Like, wow, man, totally! I'm completely capable of speaking that way too, but I want my mythic fantasy prose to be elevated, thank you, not denigrated, so go back to the mall's food court, punk.


More broadly: I like the haunting effect of The Silmarillion style, though I don't want everything I read to be written that way. But I like how lines linger with me: "The true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea." (That's from memory and not fact-checked on purpose. It lingers in a good way even if memory scrambles it.)

And then there's the iconic: "And Morgoth came." (Fingolfin's duel.)



(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 18, 6:09pm)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

May 18, 9:08pm

Post #5 of 21 (46421 views)
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Tolkien's Writing Styles [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the problem with the reading enjoyment of many of Tolkien's unpublished materials is that many texts hadn't been completed enough to reach the final polishing stage, or were written when Tolkien was younger and didn't have the skills he would develop later in his career. The Book of Lost Tales could have been greatly improved if Tolkien back then would have had his mature prose skills.

Something like the original version of The Fall of Gondolin just isn't written well despite the many interesting ideas. In particular the description of the battle itself, where there is a stark dip in prose quality, is clearly the oldest surviving thing Tolkien ever wrote, and it appears to have escaped proper editing even in the Lost Tales period. Maybe the reason Tolkien stopped with his new and revised version was that he realized that he would need to revise the long and complicated battle into something approaching respectability, and that would have been a daunting task.

Then there are later texts discussing things like the finer details of fictional philosophy, and these are the sort that by their inherent nature can easily come across as just plain dull to a big part of the audience (including myself).


In Reply To
But this had me thinking about the prose styles Tolkien chose, why he might have chosen them, and how they go down with you when you read. What are your thoughts?


I actually like the solemn style when it fits the story. The style when done properly gives a sense of distance and elevates every action away from the mundane world. I think Tolkien's use of varied styles is one of his greatest strengths and helps keep a long story from becoming monotonous and therefore dull, even to people who overall like the singular tone. I think the published Silmarillion is the worse from not daring to have enough in the way of different styles. I think the version Tolkien planned to do would have been much more varied in its contents and would even have some of that hobbitish feel that otherwise would have been out of scope due to using Bilbo as a framing device.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 18, 11:55pm

Post #6 of 21 (44212 views)
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Just try to get this passage past your school writing teacher [In reply to] Can't Post

Theoden's ride on the Pelennor:


Quote
Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orom the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.


>>> "Wrong! Too many "and's" --start a new sentence. Too many run-ons. Stop all that repetition. Explain who Orom is. Who said you could use "lo!"--save that for the Bible."

But it's epic, right? And to contrast with earlier in the book:

Quote
Days passed and The Day drew nearer. An odd-looking waggon laden with odd-looking packages rolled into Hobbiton one evening and toiled up the Hill to Bag End. The startled hobbits peered out of lamplit doors to gape at it. It was driven by outlandish folk, singing strange songs: dwarves with long beards and deep hoods. A few of them remained at Bag End.


Shorter sentences, direct description, more down to earth, definitely not epic. I think, as you said, it was Tolkien's sense of when to use different writing styles that makes LOTR so enjoyable, as the style of the moment varies by the mood, like wearing a swimsuit to a beach and a tuxedo to a formal event.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 8:13am

Post #7 of 21 (38260 views)
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I think there is a Victorian hymn intended for schools starting "O See The Cunning Frost Has Come" [In reply to] Can't Post

But I've not been able to get a cop of the words.
And of course Tolkien might have come up wth the adjective independently, rather than conciously or unconciously hitting on something he'd sung at school etc.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 9:03am

Post #8 of 21 (37960 views)
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Reply to you both about style and tone [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for these two posts. A hasty reply (off for an apointment soon)
Silvered-glass is right to point out that a lot of Tolkien's material published posthumously is either in draft, juvenalia or both. Stuff he may have felt was far from publication quality, and might be horrified to imagine people pouring over.

You can see the effect or redrafting and polishing, for example, in the Council of Elrond. In the published version, it's notable how Tolkien makes every speaker sound a little different. I agree with Tom Shippey that this is masterly. And it is also an important effect if you are writing what looks like a chaotic and badly chaired meeting (whilst actually exploiting clashes over agenda, character and style and also doing a whole lot of exposition). I once led a readthough of that chapter, which I enjoyed hugely. And it gave me the opportunity to dig into the draft versions in HoME in which, to begin with, everyone sounds the same.
Shippey on this achievement, as quoted in that readthough:

Quote

The chapter is a largely unappreciated tour de force, whose success may be gauged by the fact that few pause to recognize its complexity. It breaks, furthermore, most of the rules which might be given to an apprentice writer. For one thing, though it is fifteen thousand words long, in it nothing happens: it consists entirely of people talking. For another, it has an unusual number of speakers present (twelve), the majority of them (seven) unknown to the reader and appearing for the first time. Just to make things more difficult, the longest speech, by Gandalf, which takes up close on half the total, contains direct quotation from seven more speakers, or writers, all of them apart from Butterbur and Gaffer Gamgee new to the story, and some of them (Saruman, Denethor) to be extremely important to it later on. Other speakers, like Gloin, give direct quotation from yet more speakers, Dain and Saurons messenger. Like so many committee meetings, this chapter could very easily have disintegrated, lost its way or simply become too boring to follow. The fact that it does not is brought about by two things: Tolkiens extremely firm grasp of the history (as earlier of the geography) of Middle-earth; and his unusual ability to suggest cultural variation by differences in mode of speech.

Prof Tom Shippey, (JRR Tolkien, Author of the Century)




More generally about tone and style:
Well first you have to keep your readers happy if you want them to carry on reading. A reader is going to stop if they literaly can't understand the text, or if your style choices are causng a difficulty that outhweighs their motivation to continue.
Or the reader gets a picture of teh story or it's author that they don't like. For example I stopped reading a travel book by Paul Theroux about India when I realised I was feeling some satisfaction that he got dysentery. He seemed such a grouch unable to appreciate what he was seeing, and I had read that he always wrote books in pairs: travel memoir of the journey undertaken to write a novel. So I was feeling he was trying to be paid teice and I didn't want to play.
As a second example I started reading The pulp fantasy series The War Of Powers. Alright I confess I was doing this ironically - "Fost Longstrider, a hard living warrior who makes a living as a courier and Princess Moriana Etuul, heir to the throne of the magical City in the Sky." Yeah, OK. I'd personally agree with David Langford's review comments: "People who like routine sword-and-sorcery, with a killing or orgasm (sometimes both) every few pages, will no doubt love this book. These two books. These six books..." But even given my enjoyment of how bad I was finding it, I gave up at a sadistic torture passage. Yuck, not funny now.

Other readers' mileage will of course have varied, and maybe they loved those books. That's OK.
As a third example I'd written off Bored of the Rings as peurile trash until I saw it again through the eyes of some distinguished forum members here. There was a lot I'd missed.

It's always for a given reader: is the game worth the candle
It will be highly individual what a given reader can understand at all, or while retaining enjoyment or some other motivation to continue. I'm dyslexic: not in a way that has seriously handicapped a career involving words. But I am aware that my responses to writing can be unsual (sometimes that's an asset). Other person-specific difficulties might include general knowledge or what else the person has read. For example, someone who regularly read or heard the King James bible might find that Sil. passage we started with pretty familiar and transparent.

And many readers have absorbed proscriptive writing rules in the classroom and done so over-literally. This can lead to people deciding something is "Bad Writing", just because it breaks their Year 6 teacher's rules.
Beyond that then of course tone and style do a whole lot of work helping the reader imagine who is speaking or what is happening or how it is happening.

Playing with robots again to see how you could do that passage chosen by CuriousG differently :
Prompt

Please re-write this passage describing a battle from JRR Tolkien, doing it in the style of the following authors: (1) Ernest Hemmingway (2) Herman Melville (3) H. Rider Haggard (4) Henry James:

"Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orom the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.



Response:

Quote

Thank you for providing the passage! Now, I will re-write it in the styles of Ernest Hemingway, Herman Melville, H. Rider Haggard, and Henry James. Each re-imagining will capture the essence of the original passage, but will reflect the unique voice and approach of these authors. Lets begin.
1. Ernest Hemingway

He felt it in his blood, the cold fire of the battle. Snowmane carried him through the smoke and the cries, his golden shield bare against the sun. It caught the light, bright as a flare. The horses hooves hammered the ground, and the soldiers of Mordor broke. They ran. Some died where they stood, others in the mud. The morning wind came from the sea, and the sun rose like a knife in the sky. And the men of Rohan sang then, as they fought. Their voices were loud, the sound of it strong and clear. They didnt stop to think. They were fighters. They killed, and they sang because they could.

2. Herman Melville

There was an old fire in him, a flame passed down from the ancients. On Snowmane, he seemed not merely a man, but a god reborn, a scourge of fate itself. The gold of his shield flashed like the suns glare upon the brine, and the steed beneath him thundered over the field, as though in the presence of an indomitable force that none could withstand. The very earth seemed to quake beneath the unrelenting hoofbeats. And lo! The host of Mordor, fierce and ravenous as a tide, was swept away. The wind came howling from the sea, and with it, the light of morning scattered the dark. The enemy, those wretched souls, faltered and fled, their cries swallowed by the storm of wrath. And then, as if the battle was nothing but a brief and bitter prelude, the men of Rohan raised their voices in songa song not of sorrow, but of fierce joy. The sound rang like thunder across the plains, its force felt even in the distant city, where it struck at the heart of every man who heard it.

3. H. Rider Haggard

The air crackled with the fury of the battle. He rode like some ancient hero, his form lit by the fire of a thousand battles fought in another age. Snowmane was a creature of legend, bearing him as though borne on the very winds of the gods. His shield, golden and unmarred by time, flared with the power of the sun itself, lighting the way for the warriors of Rohan. The ground quaked beneath the thundering hooves, and the legions of Mordorthose wretched spawn of darknessfell before them. The morning wind, sent from the seas of old, cut through the shroud of night, and with it came the cleansing fire of daylight. The enemythose vile creatureswere crushed beneath the weight of Rohans wrath. They ran, they died, and the land drank deeply of their blood. Yet the men of Rohan, unshaken, surged forward like wolves on the hunt, and as they struck down their enemies, their voices rose in song. It was a song of triumph, of joy, of deathand it rang out, savage and pure, until it echoed through the very walls of the city.

4. Henry James

There was an aspect to him that transcended the mere humansomething almost divine, as though the primordial blood of his ancestors coursed anew through his veins. He was borne aloft on the steed Snowmane, an animal whose very presence seemed an emblem of a distant, mythic age, charged with a certain grandeur that stirred the soul. His shield, uncovered now, caught the light of morning, dazzling in its brilliancea reflection of the sun itself. And as he rode, with the quiet certainty of a force unyielding, the earth beneath him seemed to tremble, as though nature itself, in the form of his gallant steed, conspired to carry him across the field of war. The men of Mordor, faced with this overwhelming force, faltered, their cries rising in disarray, and the morning wind, fresh and cleansing from the sea, swept away the dark veil of night. With that, the enemies of Rohan were scattered, their forms falling away like so many leaves in a storm. And then, in that moment of dreadful yet jubilant victory, the men of Rohan, with voices lifted in unison, broke into song. It was not merely a celebration of the victory, but an expression of something deeper, something primalan echo of ancient joy and power. Their voices, both beautiful and terrible, soared across the battlefield, reaching even the distant city, where the air seemed to pulse with the reverberations of their song.


I hope these adaptations capture the distinct styles of each author! Let me know which one resonates with you, or if you'd like any adjustments!




Prompt: Please now re-write this Tolkien passage to reduce the reading age as much as possible without sacrificing literal detail.


Response:

Quote

Certainly! Heres a version of the Tolkien passage rewritten to lower the reading age while keeping all the key details intact:

He felt the old power in him, the strength of his ancestors, burning like fire in his veins. He rode Snowmane like a hero from an ancient story, strong and fearless. His golden shield was bright and shiny, glowing like the sun. The grass turned green under the hooves of his horse, shining white against the earth. It was morning now, and the wind from the sea blew across the land. The darkness faded away, and the soldiers of Mordor cried out in fear. Terror swept over them, and they turned to flee, dying as they ran. The hooves of Rohans horses trampled over them.
Then, the warriors of Rohan began to sing. They sang as they fought, full of joy and excitement. Their voices were loud and clear, even reaching the city far away. It was a song of victory, and the sound was both beautiful and frightening, echoing through the land.


This version simplifies the language and structure but still maintains the core details of the original passage. Let me know if you'd like any further changes!


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 2:09pm

Post #9 of 21 (36178 views)
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Other things that might make your school writing teacher blench [In reply to] Can't Post

for example:

Quote
Still she did not blench; maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet
terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the
hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings
outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her and her
hair shone in the sunrise.
Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that
stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm
was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his
mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the
ground. Merrys sword had stabbed him from behind...


You caused me to remember that I wrote a piece about narrative styles used in TH and LOTR back in 2013 for one of the online amateur symposiums we had back then. Someone who was kindly proof-reading that paper for me got to first paragraph of the above passage about Eowyn and said (in effect) Oh Gawd, please tell me there aren't whole pages like that! Which I agree would be a bit much; the style is pretty extreme. Tolkien is I think, treating us to a full English Beowulf.
But that passage also demonstrates two things:
  • An extreme style is OK if the reader is getting carried along with the work. Passages that could seem problematic or ridiculous in isolation can work then.
  • For TH and LOTR at least, Tolkien has the ability to narrate different characters in a style which combines distanced observation with a flavour of how that character sees the world.
I went and looked for that symposium paper and it is still there for my fond memories of TORn Amateur Symposia, and also if it is of interest to anyone now. ANd it was still there.
TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM ESSAY: "Narrating Middle-earth" by NoWizardme (2013)Abstract:
"Which voices tell the story?" is a fundamental decision for a writer to make. Looking at The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, I discuss examples of the various solutions Tolkien uses, and the effects these have. These include his first-person "storyteller" narrator in The Hobbit, and the long and complex eye-witness accounts of Lord of the Rings. The predominant choice in either book is third-person, but that does not mean using the same voice throughout - I discuss Tolkien's ability to narrate different characters in a style which combines distanced observation with a flavour of how that character sees the world.


link to the forum page for the paper, which has a link to the paper itself and also acts as the lead post for the discussion of it.


I doubt I'm going to get around to doing a similar exercise on the Sil! But one question we could collectively ponder is whether it shows shifts in style according to the action and the actors. Or perhaps it diesn't: either because that wasn't felt necessary or because it is composed of draft work, and Tolkien might or might not have added such effects had he been able to get the darned thing off to his editor and then to the printing press.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 3:11pm

Post #10 of 21 (35835 views)
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And the real extreme: Riddley Walker by Russel Hoban [In reply to] Can't Post

I was persuaded to read Riddley Walker by Russel Hoban. It uses unorthodox spelling and grammar, which I was all ready to find an absurd authorial affectation. But in fact I came to think that the style Hoban chose was perfect for a book about post-apocalyptic loss of culture and knowledge, in which the narrator, like the reader, is struggling to understand.
I thnk it is a work of genius. I dont think it coudl work nearly so well in conventional English (or as a audiobook).
So that is my extreme example of authors using very hard-to-read or curious styles, and it working provided the reader thas the author's trust and engagement.
Here's how Riddley Walker begins:

Quote
On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen. He dint make the groun shake nor nothing like that when he come on to my spear he wernt all that big plus he lookit poorly. He done the reqwyrt he ternt and stood and clattert his teef and made his rush and there we wer then. Him on 1 end of the spear kicking his life out and me on the other end watching him dy. I said, Your tern now my tern later. The other spears gone in then and he wer dead and the steam coming up off him in the rain and we all yelt, Offert!
The woal thing fealt jus that littl bit stupid. Us running that boar thru that las littl scrump of woodling with the forms all roun. Cows mooing sheap baaing cocks crowing and us foraging our las boar in a thin grey girzel on the day I come a man.
Riddley Walker by Russel Hoban


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 19, 3:15pm

Post #11 of 21 (35813 views)
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Not simple enough [In reply to] Can't Post

I still have that teenager smacking gum in my head. For us busy humans in 2025, that style saves a lot of time, and I much prefer it.Wink

Quote

He was grouchy, like my mom when I don't do homework and stuff. His horse did something, as if anyone cares what a stupid horse does. I think his morning alarm clock went off--what a jerk! Who gets up at sunrise unless he's a total loser and capitalist pig?!?!? Anyway, stuff happens, someone sings, the end.



Quote
Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orom the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.




noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 3:24pm

Post #12 of 21 (35760 views)
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Des it achieve what the author wanted? For what audience? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a subscriber to the idea that 'bad writing' and 'good writing' if not just being expressed as personal preference should include did that style work for the intended audience.

But maybe LOTR should be re-written for 2025 people. Perhaps as a series of social media posts? To that effect I asked the robot to...
...no actually folks, lets make a game of it: which bit of LOTR has been re-written, and who I asked it to imitate.

Quote
So now were supposed to believe the Elves & Wizards total disasters, by the way when they say we cant use the One Ring? Please. Maybe its too much for them, but that doesnt mean its too much for US the Men of Minas Tirith, the TRUE defenders of the West.

These so-called wise ones? More like scared and weak. Always have been. But WE are not afraid. Weve been strong for YEARS, fighting the darkness. We never asked for the Ring but it came to us, just when we needed it.

A TOTAL GIFT. The Ring is a gift to DESTROY Mordor and were supposed to throw it away? Thats insanity. Only the strong win. The fearless. The tough.

And wheres Aragorn? Hiding in the woods? Sad! Boromir is ready. IM ready. Give me the Ring and I will CRUSH the armies of darkness. People will follow believe me they always do.

Victory through POWER. We will MAKE GONDOR GREAT AGAIN!
[GondorFlagEmoji] [ShieldEmoji] [RingEmoji]

#MordorIsTheEnemy #UseTheRing #IsildurWasRight #MGGA


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 19, 3:25pm

Post #13 of 21 (35753 views)
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Orwell, Shooting an Elephant [In reply to] Can't Post

You've really opened Pandora's Box, Wiz. While reading that Riddley Walker passage, I kept thinking of Orwell's Shooting an Elephant, full essay here, which once upon a time was included in various university anthologies in America to show writing students what good writing looks like. There's nothing nice about this essay: it's brutal, and the very last line is even more brutal when Orwell admits his motivation, but Theoden slaughtering people on the Pelennor, and Riddley spearing a boar are equally brutal, which is why it popped up in my mind. What I always admired about Orwell is the intuitive sense of honesty embedded in his prose. I feel like he holds nothing back and never deceives.



Quote
When I pulled the trigger I did not hear the bang or feel the kick one never does when a shot goes home but I heard the devilish roar of glee that went up from the crowd. In that instant, in too short a time, one would have thought, even for the bullet to get there, a mysterious, terrible change had come over the elephant. He neither stirred nor fell, but every line of his body had altered. He looked suddenly stricken, shrunken, immensely old, as though the frightful impact of the bullet had paralysed him without knocking him down. At last, after what seemed a long time it might have been five seconds, I dare say he sagged flabbily to his knees. His mouth slobbered. An enormous senility seemed to have settled upon him. One could have imagined him thousands of years old. I fired again into the same spot. At the second shot he did not collapse but climbed with desperate slowness to his feet and stood weakly upright, with legs sagging and head drooping. I fired a third time. That was the shot that did for him. You could see the agony of it jolt his whole body and knock the last remnant of strength from his legs. But in falling he seemed for a moment to rise, for as his hind legs collapsed beneath him he seemed to tower upward like a huge rock toppling, his trunk reaching skyward like a tree. He trumpeted, for the first and only time. And then down he came, his belly towards me, with a crash that seemed to shake the ground even where I lay.



CuriousG
Gondolin


May 19, 3:34pm

Post #14 of 21 (35703 views)
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High fives to Melville and James [In reply to] Can't Post

Somehow, those renditions worked. I didn't think about what they weren't, which is a knee-jerk reaction ("This isn't proper Tolkien!"), and just rode my little boat down the stream of their words. They got a similar feeling across for that scene in LOTR, but I'll stop at "similar." I think as I read them, I felt like they had a profound appreciation for Theoden, his men, the stakes of the battle, the thrill and joy warriors feel, and the rising crescendo of action.

I think this passage isn't just about heroic action but about pent-up feelings being released on the battlefield: Theoden was previously struggling with infirmity and old age, doubts about his legacy, anxiety about his people, fidelity to his alliance with Gondor even though the odds are bad, concern for Eowyn, and the pleasant distraction of an odd halfling who appears from legend. So it's not just "Conan brandished his sword, metal clanged with metal, skulls were bashed in." It's Theoden showing up to clang metal with metal and bash skulls while exorcising some emotional baggage.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 19, 3:44pm

Post #15 of 21 (35649 views)
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#short guys #bad dude #gold ring #volcano #done [In reply to] Can't Post

There, I just saved you from wasting hours reading hundreds of pages. You're welcome.

Or if you're too cool for words (I know I am):






CuriousG
Gondolin


May 19, 5:31pm

Post #16 of 21 (34997 views)
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And we finally sleuth our way to the culprit behind the TORN site slowdown [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Playing with robots again




noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 6:57pm

Post #17 of 21 (34671 views)
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Yes, Theoden is almost supernaturally enhanced [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Theoden is almost supernaturally enhanced for a short time, emphasising his escape from the clutches of Saruman. A little performance-enhancing supernatural boost from Orome would seem a reading one could argue for. But not as a compulsory interpretation, of course.

I also note that focus on Theoden allows Tolkien to pull back here from intense descriptions of the carnage. But he does not duck that the Rohirrim are actually enjoying themselves.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 19, 6:58pm

Post #18 of 21 (34666 views)
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Not me officer! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 19, 7:43pm

Post #19 of 21 (34410 views)
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It is a mixed message [In reply to] Can't Post

The joy of battle vs. Sam's dark view of war between Men in Ithilien. Does Tolkien endorse both, or is he just playing "BBC Reporter" here, because the Rohirrim feel joy as they slay, and he's reporting that?


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

May 19, 8:35pm

Post #20 of 21 (34118 views)
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Different Authors [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The joy of battle vs. Sam's dark view of war between Men in Ithilien. Does Tolkien endorse both, or is he just playing "BBC Reporter" here, because the Rohirrim feel joy as they slay, and he's reporting that?


I think in-world those passages have different authors. I think you can use differences in writing style and content to track which part was written by which fictional author. Bilbo, Frodo, and Barahir the scribe of Gondor all have very different writings styles. I think the original Red Book of Westmarch didn't have much on the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and so that part was expanded for the Gondorian version, which is what we have. Barahir is an author who loves the archaic style and did his best to make the historical battle feel glorious and romantic.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 20, 8:19am

Post #21 of 21 (31036 views)
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Agreed - the idea that the work has multiple authors provides one good explanation [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously it didn't really and we're seeing Tolkien modify his style as suits how he imagines/wants to tell that part of the tale. Which then of course raises the question of why he made the stylistic choices he did.

We have an 'embedded hobbit reporter' wiith the Rohirrim so there would be no problem with giving Merry's hobbit-style account of it: that's a workable choice.


But compare the style of these passages about Theoden and Eowyn with how M&P recount the ents' attack on Isengard.

Which does suggest different authors, if you want to join Tolkien playing The Red Book game (in which he imagines himself as the latest editor and translator of an old text).

Whether Tolkien produced that effect deliberately to create/enhance a Red Book effect, or whether he did it for some other reason, it certainly works.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

 
 

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