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Substituting Frodo for Bilbo

noWizardme
Gondolin


May 8, 4:31pm

Post #1 of 24 (9024 views)
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Substituting Frodo for Bilbo Can't Post

When Professor JRR Tolkien of Oxford announced that he had recently started a sequel to The Hobbit of special magnificance, there was probably much talk and excitement at his publiser's.
But for whatever reason it wasn't going to be a story with Bilbo as the protagonist. Christopher Tolkien has a handy list of his Dad's first starts on the story, in HoME VI: The Return of The Shadow, Ch 1 A LONG-EXPECTED PARTY. What follows is an expansion of that list, with some more details added from elsewhere in HoME VI Ch1.:
  1. Version 1: Bilbo holds a party, announces that he is getting married and leaving the Shire. We're told that the new story will be about one of Bilbo's descendents.
  2. Version 2: Bilbo gives the party, and announces his departure from the Shire. No indication of what is going to happen after that. There are some of Tolkien's notes in which the action is clearly going to follow Bilbo (I'm not sure whether those are tied explicitly to thsi Version 2, or another version).
  3. Version 3: Bilbo has married Primula Brandybuck, and the couple have gone off together. Later, their son Bingo Baggins gives the party.
  4. Version 4: Bilbo (no longer married) adopted his cousin Bingo Bolger, son of Primula Brandybuck (So Primula is no longer Bilbo's wife, but remains Bingo's mother. BIngo's father is now a Bolger) . "What happened to Primula and her husband was not known for certain in Hobbiton. There was a rumour of a boating accident on the Brandywine River - the sort of things the Brandybucks would go in for. Some said that Rollo Bolger had died young of overeating; others said that it was his weight that had suk the boat". (There are not yet any suggestions of foul play, as feature in the Hobbiton gossip we hear in the published version). The orphaned Bingo is adopted, made Bilbo's heir and becomes Bingo Bolger-Baggins. Then we're told that Bilbo left the Shire when he was 111. Later, Bingo holds the party.

I don't think Bingo is quite the published Frodo yet in character and outlook. Tolkien wrote some chapters in which Bingo goes off adventuring with friends (one of whom is, confusingly called Frodo!). Where lines or actions from those early drafts survive in the published version they sometimes go to a different one of the friends. I think there is more change than just 4 characters with changing names, but constant personalities or roles. At one point I tried a close read to see if I could see who maps onto who, but it was beyond me (beyond my skill probably, but my patience gave out first!).
Silvered-glass has just given us a post about the circumstances of Bingo (--> Frodo) being orphaned ( http://newboards.theonering.net/...post=1018178#1018178 ) That was what started me off on HoME (without finding anything very helpful for that thread, alas) But while thinking about it, I wondered whether there was a wider discussion to be had about why Tolkien substituted Bilbo for another hobbit as protagonist. And also (or 'instead' where Tolkien's intention or writing process isn't clear) what effect that has on the tale.

Why switch from Bilbo as protagonist at all? Christopher Tolkien quotes JRR's biographer Humphrey Carpenter saying that JRR felt further adventures of Bilbo were incompatible with how he'd been left at the end of The Hobbit, and that he (JRR) had explored most of the possiblilities of Bilbo's character. Christopher Tolkien calls this 'plausible'. Interesting, perhaps that JRR felt he needed a new character (meaning someone with a new personality, I assume) to write about before it was at all clear what advetures this person was to be involved in.

Why can't the new hobbit protagonist be Bilbo's son (or other direct descendent)? Commenting on 'Version 4' Christpher Tolkien says "Bilbo's marriage (as was inevitable, I think) has been rejected".
He does not say why he felt that was inevitable.


Tolkien sticks with the new protagonist being Bilbo's heir though. So we end up with with Bilbo needing an adopted heir (who will then presumably have to have been orphaned before that). Tough on poor Primula: like Merry's ponies, she never got to Rivendell Smile.

What does this bring to the new story? A few ideas, please add:
  • Frodo is an orphan (like JRR Tolkien: co-incidence or important?)
  • Frodo continues the Baggins reputation for 'oddness'. That gives us a point of view character (and narrator, if one goes for the Red Book of Westmarch idea) who is a hobbit, but can observe hobbit society and customs as somewhat an outsider. And, perhaps, who is not fully satisfied by life in The Shire, and so is open to being cosmopolitan and going adventuring. I think it might have been that perspective - looking at society while feeling a bit alienated from it - that resonated with me in my early pre-teen and teen readings of the book. I've heard that it resonates in a different way with Bilbo and Frodo's many LGBTQI+ fans, and that understandably leads to a 'queer' reading of our hobbit heroes. I also think it's possible that JRR was a bit of an outsider himself in several ways- orphaned; of a minority religion against which prejudice could certainly have been encountered; a nerdy kid in a school that emphasiesd sports (though thank goodness he found some talent at the game of rugby). Later, a returning combat veteran; and although that was a common experience for a time, there were plenty enough people to stare rather than understand if a man hit still instinctively hit the deck if a car backfired (or other ongoing symptoms of wartime trauma). Still later, landing a prestigious Professorship and then becoming best-known as a childrens' author: odd again. Has Tolkien given himself some scope to explore a few things in fiction? Does he give his readers some scope to explore a few things?
  • Part of the 'oddness' is unattachedness. Neither Baggins has to say farewell to a wife left at home (as 2nd Lt Tolkien did). Or to children. Is that a relief to the author? Or does Bilbo start out unattached because (squire's idea, I think) he is a children's book character and is a child's idea of playing grown-ups: freedom and agency, but no work or family commitments (and then does that carry on to Frodo)?
  • Frodo is a much more reluctant adventurer than Bilbo, leaving the Shire much more from necessity and duty than from a wish to have adventures. And of course his quest is clearly going to be No Fun At All.


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

May 9, 8:34am

Post #2 of 24 (8976 views)
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Bilbo and Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why switch from Bilbo as protagonist at all? Christopher Tolkien quotes JRR's biographer Humphrey Carpenter saying that JRR felt further adventures of Bilbo were incompatible with how he'd been left at the end of The Hobbit, and that he (JRR) had explored most of the possiblilities of Bilbo's character. Christopher Tolkien calls this 'plausible'. Interesting, perhaps that JRR felt he needed a new character (meaning someone with a new personality, I assume) to write about before it was at all clear what advetures this person was to be involved in.


According to The Hobbit Bilbo would go on to live a very long life. Consequently his life can't be in genuine danger until he gets really very old and how can he go on an adventure when most of his cohort is already dead from old age? The invisibility ring keeping Bilbo from aging is an unsubtle and contrived plot device when he is the main hero.

Bilbo also has nothing to prove, and having the main character have an invisibility ring from the outset is a massive advantage that lowers the stakes. Yet turning Bilbo's handy invisibility ring into the evil One Ring without any foreshadowing in the prior book would be a contrived twist that's obviously only meant to keep Bilbo from being too overpowered and easily surviving everything.

Changing the protagonist from Bilbo to Frodo gives enough distance that the change to the Ring isn't a problem but instead works well as a fresh new take.


In Reply To
Why can't the new hobbit protagonist be Bilbo's son (or other direct descendent)? Commenting on 'Version 4' Christpher Tolkien says "Bilbo's marriage (as was inevitable, I think) has been rejected".
He does not say why he felt that was inevitable.


Tolkien is big on eliminating extraneous family members. Bilbo's wife would have been too important to delegate to the shadows, and if she had happened to die young, the reader could get an impression that people around Bilbo tended to drop dead much sooner than expected for some reason.


In Reply To
Tolkien sticks with the new protagonist being Bilbo's heir though. So we end up with with Bilbo needing an adopted heir (who will then presumably have to have been orphaned before that). Tough on poor Primula: like Merry's ponies, she never got to Rivendell Smile.

What does this bring to the new story? A few ideas, please add:
  • Frodo is an orphan (like JRR Tolkien: co-incidence or important?)
  • Frodo continues the Baggins reputation for 'oddness'. That gives us a point of view character (and narrator, if one goes for the Red Book of Westmarch idea) who is a hobbit, but can observe hobbit society and customs as somewhat an outsider. And, perhaps, who is not fully satisfied by life in The Shire, and so is open to being cosmopolitan and going adventuring. I think it might have been that perspective - looking at society while feeling a bit alienated from it - that resonated with me in my early pre-teen and teen readings of the book. I've heard that it resonates in a different way with Bilbo and Frodo's many LGBTQI+ fans, and that understandably leads to a 'queer' reading of our hobbit heroes. I also think it's possible that JRR was a bit of an outsider himself in several ways- orphaned; of a minority religion against which prejudice could certainly have been encountered; a nerdy kid in a school that emphasiesd sports (though thank goodness he found some talent at the game of rugby). Later, a returning combat veteran; and although that was a common experience for a time, there were plenty enough people to stare rather than understand if a man hit still instinctively hit the deck if a car backfired (or other ongoing symptoms of wartime trauma). Still later, landing a prestigious Professorship and then becoming best-known as a childrens' author: odd again. Has Tolkien given himself some scope to explore a few things in fiction? Does he give his readers some scope to explore a few things?
  • Part of the 'oddness' is unattachedness. Neither Baggins has to say farewell to a wife left at home (as 2nd Lt Tolkien did). Or to children. Is that a relief to the author? Or does Bilbo start out unattached because (squire's idea, I think) he is a children's book character and is a child's idea of playing grown-ups: freedom and agency, but no work or family commitments (and then does that carry on to Frodo)?
  • Frodo is a much more reluctant adventurer than Bilbo, leaving the Shire much more from necessity and duty than from a wish to have adventures. And of course his quest is clearly going to be No Fun At All.


In a sequel things can't be entirely the same, yet they can't be entirely different either. Frodo is a more emotional and sensitive hero suitable for a more emotionally complex and serious story. Frodo is written like a female character in some ways, really, demonstrating patient endurance and interpersonal skills and resisting temptation rather than doing normal heroic feats. Bilbo is much closer to the normal male action hero, only lacking in the physical prowess and the skills, so he needs a magic ring to even the odds.

But... what about substituting Frodo for Bilbo in the current plot?
I think Bilbo would have dealt with Frodo's quest much better than Frodo did. Bilbo is a lot more optimistic and psychologically resilient than Frodo who has lingering trauma from childhood from the death of his parents, as well as at generally being a sensitive personality, making him particularly unsuited for going to Mordor and then returning to normalcy. Bilbo also was already old and, having lived a full life and then some, would have been much more content with the possibility of not returning from Mordor.

Bilbo also appears to be more resistant to the One Ring than Frodo was. Bilbo was able to give away the Ring despite having possessed it for decades and used it much. I think that's because Bilbo is a very self-sufficient character who finds the Ring useful, sure, but does not get dependent on it so easily. Though, I think Frodo being more sensitive may have been better at distinguishing outside mental influence from his own thoughts.

And if luck is an inherent characteristic in Middle-earth, Bilbo would be expected to have much more luck on his journey than Frodo did and could have avoided many dangers.

Bilbo wanted to take the Ring to Mordor too, but was stopped by Gandalf (who I think liked Bilbo a lot and wanted to spare him), and so poor Frodo was forced to volunteer to a task he didn't want in the least.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 9, 3:17pm

Post #3 of 24 (8972 views)
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The Loose End Children: Frodo Junior and Frodina [In reply to] Can't Post

You got me musing on great adventurers in literature and how many of them left behind a wife and kids at home. Odysseus and various other potentates of The Iliad? Yes. Don Quixote? No. Gilgamesh? No. Conan? No. Marvel's Avengers? Interesting: yes and no. The family left behind is an emotional anchor while the hero flits about, but also a distraction, and you can lose focus on Iron Man and Hawkeye's exploits if you get lost in thinking about their wife and kids.

I also appreciate your point about kids viewing themselves as playing grown-ups: marriage and kids come at the end, as a reward and finale, and they seem to clutter up the hero's action of fighting, traveling, escaping, outsmarting, etc. How can you slay a dragon AND remember to buy a carton of milk for your kids' breakfast cereal? Even multitasking has limits. And there are limits for readers' attention too. While I think Rosie feels airlifted into the end of LOTR, I'm grateful we don't have to hear Sam pining for her every 50 pages or so or comparing her beauty to Arwen's, Galadriel's, etc.

Also, thanks for listing the various reasons why Tolkien would feel like an outsider, even though he wrote the story while an Oxford Professor, which at least to my American ears resonates with 100% Establishment. He seems to pay homage to his personal past more than his present, and it may be a tangent (in the Reading Room? Heavens!) that Frodo/Bilbo are Tolkien's youth, while Gandalf/Elrond are his present: masters of lore, responsible for the world and not just a school locker, thinking Big while Little people think small, helping youth to catch up with maturity. A delightful tension exists between B/F and G/E that pulses with more camaraderie than conflict, but their world and moral views are distinctly different.

I think Tolkien wrote about "what he knew" when he made so many characters orphans or demi-orphans. He didn't experience "Dad come home everyday at 5:30 pm with a newspaper and a tired look, eager for Mum's dinner," or "Mum cried at my uni graduation the way she cried when each of my children were born." He knew blank spots that were filled in in other people's lives, and he'd had to fill them in himself, and so did his characters. With wild variations: think of Turin vs Faramir. He knew the orphan's experience wasn't singular and different people adapted differently, but he also knew they were outsiders to some degree.

As for Frodo's newness as a character: didn't the crazy Tolkien appreciate the business value of a franchise?!?!?!? Bilbo vs. Smaug's Daughter, A Much-Expected (re-)Adventure, Volume VIII. C'mon, sell it, Professor! *sigh* Another missed opportunity. Anyway, Bilbo exhibited a definite growth arc in The Hobbit, so that vein was mined, and starting fresh with Frodo awarded Tolkien all kinds of writer opportunities to explore, removing any shackles that would have lingered had Bilbo remained the hero.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 9, 6:41pm

Post #4 of 24 (8783 views)
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Now that's a promising approach! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
Frodo is a more emotional and sensitive hero suitable for a more emotionally complex and serious story. Frodo is written like a female character in some ways, really, demonstrating patient endurance and interpersonal skills and resisting temptation rather than doing normal heroic feats. Bilbo is much closer to the normal male action hero, only lacking in the physical prowess and the skills, so he needs a magic ring to even the odds.


One thing Tolkien makes very clear is that the One Ring is irresistible. The sort of person who always contests for mastery; who has massive self-confidence; who is resolute and commanding; who is enormously reslilient; who will take risks for their cause -- that sort of personality (great in their place, and in Middle-earth likely to be esteemed as a warrior or leader) is exactly the wrong sort of person to handle the Ring. Boromir illustrates this perfectly. Saruman too, I think.


And Faramir illustrates that although the attributes I have listed are often stereotyped as masculine (and appear in exaggerated form in much fantasy adventure fiction) Tolkien is an interesting enough writer to create more rounded characters and not to be bound by simple gender stereotypes. Faramir has my list of attributes but also has enough self-knowledge that his self-confidence is not misplaced, enabling him to realise that taking the Ring is A Bad Idea.

I'm not sure my list of attributes (or imagine another better one if mine was clumsy) describes Bilbo exactly, but I don't think that's necessary for me to agree with your point. Bilbo has used the Ring casually for a long time, and Gandalf tells us that Bilbo has been pretty unaware or in denial about what it is doing to him.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 9, 6:51pm

Post #5 of 24 (8781 views)
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Gosh, various points to answer! [In reply to] Can't Post

How 'establishment' are Oxford Professors (or Professors elsewhere in British higher education)?

Not as much as one might think, I'd say. Yes, they are senior in one of the country's long-established institutions. But they are clever rather than (necessarily) old money chaps who went to the same school as you. And then there's the problem that Professors tend to be clever. The Established establishment don't trust clever.


***

In Reply To
[Tolkien] seems to pay homage to his personal past more than his present, and it may be a tangent (in the Reading Room? Heavens!) that Frodo/Bilbo are Tolkien's youth, while Gandalf/Elrond are his present: masters of lore, responsible for the world and not just a school locker, thinking Big while Little people think small, helping youth to catch up with maturity. A delightful tension exists between B/F and G/E that pulses with more camaraderie than conflict, but their world and moral views are distinctly different.


I do love a good tangent (such as this one). I also see a good dash of Bombadil in Tolkien Present.

***

In Reply To
As for Frodo's newness as a character: didn't the crazy Tolkien appreciate the business value of a franchise?!?!?!? Bilbo vs. Smaug's Daughter, A Much-Expected (re-)Adventure, Volume VIII. C'mon, sell it, Professor! *sigh* Another missed opportunity. Anyway, Bilbo exhibited a definite growth arc in The Hobbit, so that vein was mined, and starting fresh with Frodo awarded Tolkien all kinds of writer opportunities to explore, removing any shackles that would have lingered had Bilbo remained the hero.


Yes, I think things might have been very different had Tolkien been a professional writier (in thr strict sense of needing publishers cheques to put dinner on the table). And 'back then' Unwins was willing to be enormously patient, and ultimately to accept a masterpiece that wasn't all that much like teh book to whcih it is supposed to be a sequel.By comparison I think modern publishing conglomerates are more likely to demand a multi-book series which ticks a long list of boxes about market-suitability, all before the first one is even published.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 9, 6:53pm)


Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin

May 9, 7:15pm

Post #6 of 24 (8763 views)
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Bilbo is a bit more fun than Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post

He doesn’t actually have to go on his quest. It is at least at the start only for profit. And a nice trip to the wild. Quite a trip. He could have just gone to bree but didn’t. I suppose that Frodo does not have to go on his quest but feels that he must. Bilbo is also a bit cheekier. He hides the fact of the ring from everyone, steels the arkenstone and does not tell the Dwarves and even kind of defects from the Dwarves near the end!


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 9, 7:15pm

Post #7 of 24 (8763 views)
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Snobbery 101 [In reply to] Can't Post

You can see what I aspire to.

But seriously, here's my question as I train up in the world: from what you say, established mid-level aristocrats like earls and viscounts wouldn't go out of their way and compete with each other to befriend an Oxford professor so they could invite them to their teas and dinner parties and show off how clever the host is?? OK, just when I thought was getting a hang on this. (*revises next party guest list; crosses off dozens of Harvard professors*)


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 9, 7:18pm

Post #8 of 24 (8762 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

Not only are the stakes lower (no fears about world domination) in The Hobbit, Bilbo doesn't even have to go. The feel is different enough that a new hero is needed to set a new tone, I think.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 9, 7:33pm

Post #9 of 24 (8758 views)
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Some help from Flanders and Swann [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
One of the great problems in the world today is undoubtedly this problem of not being able to talk to scientists, because we don't understand science. They can't talk to us because they don't understand anything else, poor dears. This problem, I think it was C.P. Snow first raised it - Sir Charles Snow in private life - in his books Science and Government and so on. Mind you, I haven't read it. I'm waiting for the play to come.

He says, quite rightly, he says it's no good going up to a scientist and saying to him as you would to anybody else, you know, "good morning, how are you, lend me a quid" and so on, I mean he'll just glare at you or make a rude retort or something. No, you have to speak to him in language that he'll understand. I mean you go up to him and say something like, "Ah, H2SO4 Professor! Don't synthesize anything I wouldn't synthesize. Oh, and the reciprocal of pi to your good wife." Now, this he will understand.

Snow says that nobody can consider themselves educated who doesn't know at least the basic language of science. I mean things like Sir Edward Boyle's Law, for example - the greater the external pressure, the greater the volume of hot air. The simple . . . or . . . the Second Law of Thermodynamics, this is very important. I wasn't so much shocked the other day to discover that my partner not only doesn't know the Second Law, he doesn't even know the First Law of Thermodynamics!


Going back to first principles, very briefly: thermodynamics, of course, is derived from two Greek words, thermos, meaning hot - if you don't drop it - and dynamics, meaning dynamic, work; and thermodynamics is simply the science of heat and work, and the relationships between the two as laid down in the Laws of Thermodynamics, which may be expressed in the following simple terms - after me, Donald...


Intro to 'First and Second Law of Thermodynamics' (1964)



~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 9, 9:07pm

Post #10 of 24 (8619 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

I did ask one PhD "Sup?" and got this reply

"The indubitable perspicacity of the syzygetic quadrifurcation in antediluvian phlogistonic parapraxes amid a sesquipedalian objurgation."

But they said it pleasantly, so I think it meant they were having a good day. That, or maybe an asteroid will obliterate Earth in the next 10 minutes. Google translate has its limits.

More seriously, I was thinking how Tolkien had his pub buddies, and that was a mainstream way of fitting in and not being an outsider, even if he was Catholic. He write in Letters about someone rudely saying at an Oxford meeting (paraphrasing): "whatever happens with the department chair, we can't let it go to a Catholic." Better to give it to an orc, I guess.

His wife struggled to fit into Oxford wife society, I recall from Carpenter's book, something about her being shy and "doesn't call," which was gauche beyond gauche. More broadly, I think the most gregarious people run head-on into plenty of situations where they don't belong and don't feel welcome, so the outside aspect can appeal to literally everyone. And especially teenagers. (Here's looking at you, Salinger's Catcher in the Rye.)


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 10, 9:29am

Post #11 of 24 (7744 views)
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Making his own 'Inside' [In reply to] Can't Post

I think of Tolkien as often socialising in some kind of small, all-male, informal club with a humourous name and possiby where the members gave each other silly nicknames- the TCBS when he was at school, The Inklings at Oxford University.

So maybe Tolkien (and the others) made a place that fitted them, and then were of course the ultimate insiders there.

(Whether Frodo and his friends reflect that sort of thing is an interesting question. But I really doubt they reflect it exactly or conciously - at least I'd be cautious about anyone tryng to identify which hobbit 'is supposed to be' CS Lewis or Christopher Wiseman.)

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 10, 9:40am

Post #12 of 24 (7729 views)
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Bingo [In reply to] Can't Post

Why the name 'Bingo' as the intial choice for Bilbo's heir?
Humphrey Carpenter has thsi character being named after a family koala toy, but (HoME VI Ch1) Christopher Tolkien is not so sure:


Quote
I find it difficult to believe this, yet if it is not so the coincidence is strange. If Bingo Baggins did get his name from this source, I can only suppose that the demonic character (composed of monomaniac religious despotism and a lust for destruction through high explosive) of the chief Bingo (not to mention that of his appalling wife), by which my sister and I now remember them, developed somewhat later.


I rather enjoyed the image that came to mind of JRR Tolkien making up stories about a megalomaniac, pyromaniac religious-nut koala and telling them to his mildly appauled children.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 10, 11:39am

Post #13 of 24 (7579 views)
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Obviously Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. Obviously. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(composed of monomaniac religious despotism and a lust for destruction through high explosive) of the chief Bingo (not to mention that of his appalling wife)




CuriousG
Gondolin


May 10, 11:48am

Post #14 of 24 (7564 views)
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Good distinction to make [In reply to] Can't Post

While Bilbo's world is more simplified, making it hard to compare him with Frodo, I think your comparison still rings true.


Quote
I think that's because Bilbo is a very self-sufficient character who finds the Ring useful, sure, but does not get dependent on it so easily. Though, I think Frodo being more sensitive may have been better at distinguishing outside mental influence from his own thoughts.

I think Frodo's sensitivity and intuition were key to his and the Quest's success in deciding whether, and how much, to trust Strider in Bree and Faramir in Ithilien, along with trusting Gollum as guide and not would-be murderer. He seemed just leery enough of Boromir that he escaped him when he needed to. I'm not sure Bilbo's instincts were as keen, but as I said, he lived in a simpler world, so comparisons run aground pretty quickly.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 10, 1:57pm

Post #15 of 24 (7206 views)
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I can imagine .... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien having lunch with Stanley and Rayner Unwin about 1937, and of course the Unwins want to know how 'The Hobbit Sequel' is going.

"Well I've decided that we need to have a new hobbit protagonist, Bingo. Imagine The Witch-finder General is presenting Mythbusters... but he's a koala!"

The Unwins exchange panicked looks, then Stanley smiles broadly.

"Ah yes of course -- H2SO4, Professor!"

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 10, 9:51pm

Post #16 of 24 (5754 views)
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Middle-earth Conspiracy Theory: what's the real reason the hobbits are so small? [In reply to] Can't Post

Answer: so in every Star Wars episode, they'd be able to heroically run beneath the motion detectors and plant a bomb to blow up the reactor of the latest Death Star. It's a great save I know I never get tired of. Looking forward to it again in Episode XXXVII.


Felagund
Nargothrond


May 11, 9:39am

Post #17 of 24 (4748 views)
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opening the door for the Sackville-Bagginses [In reply to] Can't Post

A great series of questions (and replies)!

Another thing that the Big Swap opens up in terms of narrative possibilities is a bigger role for the Sackville-Bagginses. They get a mention at the end of The Hobbit ('The Last Stage') as disgruntled would-be heirs and alleged silver spoon thieves. And by developing Bilbo as a bachelor who adopts an heir, Tolkien gets some more mileage out of this thwarted branch of the Baggins clan.

Part of this is for, in my view, comedic purposes - the relentless pettiness and axe-to-grind dynamic of these relatives is humorous. And it also forms part of a more tragic story arc, whereby the ambitions of the Sackville-Bagginses eventually help to expose the Shire to the existential threat that is Sharkey. By weaving in the Sackville-Bagginses, the tragedy of what befalls the Shire hits home that bit more than say, if Frodo & Co. get home to find that the woes of the Shire were facilitated by a hitherto unknown, random greedy hobbit.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 11, 3:53pm

Post #18 of 24 (3484 views)
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Great Expectations [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone else remember Sarah Pocket in Charles Dickens' [i]Great Expectations[/i]? Same idea of the money-grubbing would-be heirs always feeling entitled and being nasty about it, their sole interest in Miss Havisham being her money, and it happens in real life too, so a well-deserved trope.

Good point about the SBs. They are delightfully comedic in early LOTR (who the heck steals spoons when you're already rich??), and I had zero inkling that Lotho would be resurrected at the end as the hobbit who sold out the Shire and then lost control of it (and got eaten), but you're right, if he'd just been some new Mayor of Michel Delving gone rogue that we didn't know about, and that Frodo didn't have a vested interest in saving and redeeming, it would not have landed as well with us readers.



(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 11, 3:53pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 11, 6:26pm

Post #19 of 24 (2982 views)
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Good point. And also... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I can imagine Tolkien pulling off a running gag by having Frodo return unexpectedly (like Bilbo) just as the S-Bs were about to move in again.
But LOTR is much less a comedy the TH, and (I think) is very much about the morals of choices made with what is encountered in the world. So Frodo sells Bag End to the S-Bs (gossip varies about the price) which ought to settle the grievance. Presumably Frodo is expecting to die on his quest, and is setting things right before he goes on teh suicide mission. Or at least, it is now on the S-Bs at least a bit that getting the family smail turns out not to be enough.

Tangentally: having Bilbo assumed dead and his stuff is being auctoned off is pretty adventurous for a childrens's book. We all know that what ought to happen for a returning fantasy hero in a childrens's story is that Bilbo "finds his supper waiting for him. And it was still hot."

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 11, 6:37pm

Post #20 of 24 (2939 views)
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Bit of a marmite thing that [In reply to] Can't Post

(Does that travel? Marmite is a very salty yeast extract made form brewing waste, or industrial sludge or Englishmen who understood American Football or something. The manufacturers ran an advertising campaign on the basis that or either love it or hate it. Or of course if you're Australian, you argue that Vegemite is better. Which maybe it is.)

Anyway, my point about Star Wars movies nawadays is that ther's a predictable checklist of things that happen. Either
  • the light sabre fight on the gantry;
  • the needing to fly fast through narrow passageways,
  • The "oh what? There are new Space Nazis and they've made a Death Star again?"
  • The compulsory appearance of the Millenium Falcon
  • etc.

...is what you but your ticket for (noting wrong with that) , or it makes Star Wars films about as interesting as watching the progress bar as you install software.
Conclusion: Vegemite is better than Star Wars. And: it's a mater of taste. Smile
ANd also - how nice that Tolkien didn't just recycle The Hobbit tropes for an easy sequel.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 11, 6:47pm)


Felagund
Nargothrond


May 11, 8:47pm

Post #21 of 24 (2452 views)
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Vegemite is better [In reply to] Can't Post

At least as far as Marmite is concerned :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


CuriousG
Gondolin


May 11, 10:32pm

Post #22 of 24 (2094 views)
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While I hasten to mediate a ceasefire while your cities still stand, [In reply to] Can't Post

we should all agree that England's trebuchets fired the first shot. Just sayin.' (PS. Meneldor, we know that's you under the visor.)




Meneldor
Doriath


May 12, 2:16am

Post #23 of 24 (1253 views)
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I would never [In reply to] Can't Post

launch marmite, or vegemite, on any battlefield. That would be a blatant and egregious violation of the Geneva Conventions.




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Gondolin


May 12, 6:50pm

Post #24 of 24 (407 views)
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Yes it is really, isn't it. [In reply to] Can't Post

And if I now vanish from these boards without a trace you'll know that the Provisional Wing of the Patriotic Marmite Front got me, and I've been boiled down to an excessively salty sludge. Please bury a jar of it with the appropriate ceremonies.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

 
 

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