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Silvered-glass
Menegroth
Apr 26, 7:10pm
Post #26 of 51
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On a (slightly) more serious note...
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*from the sheets of paper found forgotten on the Mouth of Sauron's desk in Barad-dûr* Re: Multilayered Border Defense Considerations: Cirith Ungol #0: Despite what one might hope for, the existence of Cirith Ungol and its spidery inhabitant have long been too well known to be considered any sort of secret. One suspects that locating Cirith Ungol on the map is part of the standard curriculum for Gondor's schoolchildren. All expected intruders are expected to be either Gondorians or allies in close cooperation with Gondorians. #1: The first tier of defense to Cirith Ungol is the proximity to the Silent Watchers and patrols from Minas Morgul. However the Silent Watchers, while extraordinarily sensitive to psychic impressions, are in practice prone to giving out false positives. This is such a common problem that lower priority Silent Watcher alerts are routinely ignored despite strict instructions to the contrary. The Silent Watchers are also not good at determining intruder type and exact location, especially outside of close range. The tales of armed patrols being sent to detain ordinary unaligned squirrels and swarms of butterflies are as unending as they are detrimental to the discipline. This has been partially solved by relocating deeper into the vale the Silent Watchers that used to be at the Morgul Vale entrance, which as a side effect makes Cirith Ungol considerably less protected. #2: The psychic pull of Minas Morgul has been calibrated wide enough that it should (just barely and at a great cost in magical resources) reach those who take the Cirith Ungol route. However approximately zero potential spies would be expected to even notice it the pull, let alone be captured by it. *scribbled note* Reduce the pull field to a more sensible value or eliminate entirely. #3: Then there are some old stairs. This effectively filters out horses but lets small-to-medium groups on foot slip right through. #4: Shelob is a whimsical being, and in my opinion too much stock has been put on her guardianship abilities. Rampant unauthorized tunneling has made Cirith Ungol a big place for one spider to guard, and Shelob is in habit of driving away her offspring so that they don't steal her food. (She mainly eats our own troops, by the way.) Powerful intruders would have some chance of defeating Shelob (for example by luring her out to daylight where she is weaker and then killing her with high-quality weapons) and apparently one particular small creature managed to talk himself out of trouble with Shelob, as hard as that may be to believe. Shelob's webs are an additional source of difficulty, but even Orcs know how to deal with those and frequently cut paths to both entrances. The webs are also regularly harvested and removed for Nazgûl robes, which naturally temporarily negates the function as an obstacle. #5: The final and probably the most reliable defense of Cirith Ungol is just plain Orcs, and you should all know how unreliable Orcs are, especially when not sufficiently motivated. The Orcs of Cirith Ungol have been motivated with a death penalty should they let a spy through, but inter-Orc fighting from any small insult or dispute over property could well cause critical distractions that *final page missing*
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Apr 27, 12:41pm
Post #27 of 51
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And I think there really is a semi serious point in
However the Silent Watchers, while extraordinarily sensitive to psychic impressions, are in practice prone to giving out false positives. This is such a common problem that lower priority Silent Watcher alerts are routinely ignored despite strict instructions to the contrary. The Silent Watchers are also not good at determining intruder type and exact location, especially outside of close range. The tales of armed patrols being sent to detain ordinary unaligned squirrels and swarms of butterflies are as unending as they are detrimental to the discipline.
The more sensitive one's measurments are of anything, the more suscceptible to various kinds of disturbance. I did like the idea of patrols being sent out to catch squirrels and swarms of butterflies. All too likely. Perhaps there's a custom in the garrison that you have to eat whatever it was (OK if squirrel kebab; less satisying if butterflies, and fun only for everyone else if it was a rock fall). Now perhaps Sauron (representing the 'bad side' characterised by "compulsion that has long lost any object except power" - letter 144) is not too bothered about the effect of this on morale - just compel the orcs to chase down every false alarm because compelling peoepl to do thisng sis power. And report on it, because in Mordor nobody trusts anybody else (rationally enough). But then it is easy to imagine that resulting in a 'jobsworth' attitude. ('Jobsworth' being British Eglish I shoudl prbably define it: "someone who always obeys all the rules of their job even when they cause problems for other people or when the rules are silly" says Cambridge Dictionary. I'd add that it also implies never showing any initiative whatsoever because it might be 'more that my job's worth' to interpret any instruction). Anyway, I see orcs as chaotic and anarchic (for example Shagrat and Gorbag think whistfully about a life of freelance brigandage). And so while making them do bureaucracy could well be part of "compulsion that has long lost any object except power" I can certianly imagine that could lead to...
lower priority Silent Watcher alerts are routinely ignored despite strict instructions to the contrary.
...provided you think you can get away with it, and there is someone else to blame, of course. And as for conforming to the Tyranny's IT policy about running updates -- no chance.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Apr 27, 12:52pm
Post #28 of 51
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This is where I pity DMs and their ilk
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We can quite sensibly discuss that Aragorn might well be wieighing up the best plan to get into Mordor as he distractedly drifts down the Anduin and thinks he might have to lead Frodo there. But (as folks have already said or implied) while it is fun to speculate, there's little chance of working out what he was thinking; let alone figuring out whether it might have worked. We don'' have to work out under what circumstances Aragorn may attempt the Leap of Beren, and what dice roll is required for success. Or how much damage he sustains if he can't grab something ...load-beren at the top. Nor whether he falls for an offer of "There's Whiskey in the Jar" offer from those guard orcs, until he gives them an account of his mission as "Musha Ring dumb a do dumb a da...".
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Apr 27, 1:50pm
Post #29 of 51
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We can quite sensibly discuss that Aragorn might well be wieighing up the best plan to get into Mordor as he distractedly drifts down the Anduin and thinks he might have to lead Frodo there. But (as folks have already said or implied) while it is fun to speculate, there's little chance of working out what he was thinking; let alone figuring out whether it might have worked. We don'' have to work out under what circumstances Aragorn may attempt the Leap of Beren, and what dice roll is required for success. Or how much damage he sustains if he can't grab something ...load-beren at the top. Nor whether he falls for an offer of "There's Whiskey in the Jar" offer from those guard orcs, until he gives them an account of his mission as "Musha Ring dumb a do dumb a da...". Realistically, were there many practical options for Aragorn to lead Frodo and Sam into Mordor? I can only think of a handful: 1. The Black Gate. Too risky; it would have to rely on disguise and deception.This would almost certainly fail. 2. Minas Morgal. Same as above. 3. The pass of Cirith Ungol. Between the Phial of Galadriel and Aragorn's fighting prowness, this would be dangerous but doable. 4. Circumvent either the Ash Mountains or the Mountains of Shadow and enter Mordor from the East. This would take too long, would require extra supplies, and would pose too much risk of discovery. 5. Enter through some other secret or little-known pass that might be unguarded or at least poorly guarded. This might be feasible if such a pass existed. However, we have no solid evidence that this is the case. 6. Enlist the Great Eagles to fly to Mount Doom. There's a good chance that the Eagles would refuse. Aragorn would probably be unaware yet that the Ringwraiths were using winged mounts. Nonetheless, Eagles could be spotted from the ground, triggering an alert. Also, there is the possibility that the Ring could corrupt even one of the great raptors, esp. as Mount Doom drew near. Have I overlooked anything?
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 27, 1:52pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 27, 3:50pm
Post #30 of 51
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Toiling across the hostile landscape, Aragorn and Frodo at last arrived at Cirith Soo-Wij, a little-known and much-avoided entrance to Mordor where its waste was flushed shamelessly into the Anduin. Blocking their path was a stone hut and a stone-faced orc with a stony attitude and that horror of all horrors: a stone clipboard with a paper form to fill out. "Names?" Shagmouse asked, chewing on fried oliphaunt rinds. "First three letters only." "Two and Fro," Aragorn explained, "we're--" "Reason for entry?" Shagmouse interrupted. Frodo declared in a bold voice, striking a warrior stance, his hand on Sting: "We come to Mordor to melt the One Ring in the inferno and destroy the Dark Lord for ever and ever and make Middle-earth happy and free." Shagmouse's eyes didn't leave the form. "Look, Mr. Wisecracker, I got two options here: sightseeing and slavery. What's it gonna be?" "Sightseeing," Aragorn and Frodo muttered, downcast. "Move along then."
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Apr 27, 5:20pm
Post #31 of 51
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the quest's end, but by a different path?
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I think that's a great summary of Aragorn's options, if we imagine what he might be thinking aare the options for leading Frodo into Mordor and Mt Doom:
Realistically, were there many practical options for Aragorn to lead Frodo and Sam into Mordor? I can only think of a handful: 1. The Black Gate. Too risky; it would have to rely on disguise and deception.This would almost certainly fail. 2. Minas Morgal. Same as above. 3. The pass of Cirith Ungol. Between the Phial of Galadriel and Aragorn's fighting prowness, this would be dangerous but doable. 4. Circumvent either the Ash Mountains or the Mountains of Shadow and enter Mordor from the East. This would take too long, would require extra supplies, and would pose too much risk of discovery. 5. Enter through some other secret or little-known pass that might be unguarded or at least poorly guarded. This might be feasible if such a pass existed. However, we have no solid evidence that this is the case. 6. Enlist the Great Eagles to fly to Mount Doom. There's a good chance that the Eagles would refuse. Aragorn would probably be unaware yet that the Ringwraiths were using winged mounts. Nonetheless, Eagles could be spotted from the ground, triggering an alert. Also, there is the possibility that the Ring could corrupt even one of the great raptors, esp. as Mount Doom drew near. Have I overlooked anything? Perhaps I should have been more precise when I wrote "there's little chance of working out what he was thinking; let alone figuring out whether it might have worked." Evidently we can work out the options - but which one he was about to try (or how and when he proposed to decide) is the bit where I think there is 'little chance'. And as for what would happen? I think that in Middle-earth we are to imagine that there is free will but certain things are 'meant' to happen because the overall shape or destination of history at the macro level is set. Consequently, characters who think their world works that way are faced with the poser of working out which of their options is the one they are 'meant' to do. But this is not always a decision achievable by logic or knowledge or weighting probabilites. Intention is vitally important too. And (if we agree that is what Middle-earth is like) that insight ought to figure in our What if?s too. To try and make that idea a little clearer, here is one of Hammond & Scull's notes on Many Meetings:
220 (I: 232). I was delayed,' said Gandalf, 'and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so’ - Because Gandalf was delayed, the hobbits set out later than planned and were menaced by Black Riders. But because of this, Frodo has endured trials which help him to grow in character and ultimately to undertake his journey to Mount Doom, while Merry has obtained the knife from the barrow with which he will help to defeat the Witch-king. Todd Jensen explores this point in 'Frodo's Delay, Beyond Bree, May 1991; in response to which David Cremona comments that
it is part of the schema of The Lord of the Rings that what seems to be setbacks, blunders and delays, turn out to have been useful shortcuts; though I think Tolkien would have argued that, had they done other-wise, with a good intention, that too might have led to the quest's end, but by a different path. Ilúvatar, as ever, does not compel or predestine, but his plans are far-seeing and the roads to his ends, many. [letter to Beyond Bree, June 1991, p. 10]
The Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion, Hammond & Scull So let's imagine for a moment that the above is correct -- either because you agree, or as a thought experiment where you'll waive your objections for a while to see where this goes. It would seem to follow that if Aragorn decided with a good intention that he should follow F&S rather than M&P then "that too might have led to the quest's end, but by a different path." What would happen specifically is not something I'd like to guess. And that's because (assuming David Cremona is right) one could argue for:- Aragorn being turned back in some way to resume what he is 'meant' to do (being more or less what he does in Tolkien's story). Or;
- The opposite: that him going to Mordor with Frodo would lead to the quest's end (and what does that mean? Possibly it would involve The downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the return of the king, but I don't know whether all of that is in Eru's score, or whether some of it is optional.)
But I think Aragorn reaches the point where he cannot make that decision to follow F&S rather than M&P with a good intention. Not after he's said:
'Let me think!' said Aragorn. ‘And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!’ He stood silent for a moment. 'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last. 'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer.' [my bolds] So I think that deciding that the Ring Quest requires ignoring M&P's torment and death would now be with a wrong intention - and it woud not lead to the quest's end. What specifically would go wrong I don't know. I Note that Middle-earth has been on the brink of Ring-destruction before, but Isildur kept the Ring as his weregeld for all the woes he'd suffered- wrong intention. Other points in LOTR at which doing the 'logical' thing would have been a wrong intention? Frodo briefly considering ditching his mates in the barrow and making a run for it, invisible. Something Gandalf calls "touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all." (Gandalf to Frodo - FOTR, Many Meetings) Some time ago I asked why people thought that was 'the most dangerous moment of all". Was it that - that the Ring is obviously nearly captured by the Barrow Wight. I've no idea what would happen then, except I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be good.
- Or was it that Frodo is as much in moral peril as he is in mortal peril. What happens to him, and his attempt to slow his corruption by the Ring, if he uses it to abandon his friends and escape himself? Maybe this scene can be seen as a counterpoint to Amon Hen, where Frodo decides to take the Ring on alone - but to save his friends not to sacrifice them.
I got this anwer (which I thought excellent):
The peril of the Ring is never that the bad guys will get it. It's always that the good guys will use it in an attempt to prevent the bad guys from getting it. In the barrow is the only time, as far as I can remember, when Frodo is tempted (without external considerations like the will of the Nazgul) to use the Ring to betray his friends and save himself alone. And we are shown that he knows this: as he considers this choice, with weasely and self-pitying ideas of how it has to be this way, he tells himself that
"Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do." That is the first line of a subtly buried dialogue; Gandalf's comment at the beginning of Book 2 is the second. I have always thought it was door #2 by Squire Another obvious example is Sam returning to Frodo's 'dead' body in time to discover that... well... Frodo Lives! (I wonder of Sam got the T-shirt?) Sam's tried the argument that he must be 'meant' to push on with the quest alone, but he can't do it. So with a good intention he returns. "What seems to be setbacks, blunders and delays, turn out to have been useful shortcuts". It is not clear that F&S can get past the Tower of Cirith Ungol (or that anybody can) without the unlikely wheeze of accidentely using Frodo as a Trojan horse, but making sure he doesn't have the Ring when captured.
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Apr 27, 5:21pm
Post #32 of 51
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~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Apr 27, 5:24pm
Post #33 of 51
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with a sense of occasion, the card is taken from the envelope and read out...
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The week's Particularly Awesome Laughter Assisting Non Traditional Interpretation Review award (or PALANTIR, as we call it in the industry) goes... [pantomime pause] jointly to noWiz and Silvered-glass!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Apr 27, 5:58pm
Post #34 of 51
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Oh dear, now I'm imagining that Shagmouse's boss is Shagemall
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...after the British army song that Tolkien is bound to have known, (entitled Bless 'em all: in the 'radio edit' at least...) Including observations of military life that might chime well with our jobsworth orc friends: They say if you work hard you'll get better pay. We've heard all that before. Clean up your buttons and polish your boots, Scrub out the barrack room floor. There's many a rookie has taken it in, hook, line, and sinker an' all. You'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, so cheer up my lads, bless 'em all. [but at least] ...Nobody knows what a twirp you have been, so cheer up my lads, bless 'em all. Adding to my enjoyment: The British English slang meaning of 'shag' ...
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Felagund
Nargothrond

Apr 27, 5:58pm
Post #35 of 51
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In the early versions of the map of Middle-earth ('The First Map' & the '1943 Map'), a southern route into and out of Mordor is apparent, through the Mountains of Shadow. This is named as the Nargil Pass, also spelled as Narghil and Nargul ('The First Map', HoMe VII). The pass itself but not the name survives into the drafting of the 'Second Map' phase before being discarded as a topographical feature in the published edition ('The Second map', HoMe VIII). While still a going concern, the pass was described as the means by which Sauron's forces cross into Harad and stir up the Haradrim against Gondor ('Book Five Begun and Abandoned', HoMe VIII):
Now Orcs have passed south through Nargil pass in the Southland beyond Harnen.
The forces of Sauron have crossed the Nargul ? Pass and raised the men of Harad and of ? Umbor. There's no indication that I can find that this was on Gandalf or Aragorn's radar as a means of infiltrating Mordor, in the drafting phases. Indeed, if the idea ever crossed the author's mind at all before jettisoning 'Nargil Pass' from the final version of the story, this route doesn't sound very practical. In the sense that it was written as a major military artery and presumably would have been swarming with guards and traffic and possibly controlled by gates as well - not unlike the Morannon.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 27, 7:14pm
Post #36 of 51
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That pass does seem problematic in world-building
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It was a key episode when Southrons and their oliphaunts were marching north to the Morannon but were waylaid by Faramir's men just as F&S were in the vicinity. It wouldn't make sense that they'd skip a more handy southern pass that was a shortcut. I'm sure an argument could be made for it, but still seems flaky in my mind, so better left forgotten. I personally have long wondered if Sauron communicated with Rhun and Harad by sending messengers into eastern Mordor were there were no mountains, then they could go north or south and not be witnessed by Gondor (unless by palantir). Anyway, thanks for sharing that with us. Because on its own, it does make sense (in early drafts) that Sauron would have a more direct route to Harad. We can see Tolkien's part-Vulcan mind working logically as he crafted his stories.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 27, 7:15pm
Post #37 of 51
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I was playing off of Shagrat the orc (Shagrat, Shagmouse)
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but if you want to be salacious about "shag," be my guest.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Apr 27, 7:33pm
Post #38 of 51
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And, of course, I do not possess copies of either HOME VII or VIII, though I was able to google the Nargil Pass. The passage is located at the source of the River Nargil (which feeds the Sea of Núrnen from the south). Assuming that Aragorn even knew about the pass, I see that it would have added something like another 1000 miles to the journey. My original thought was that Aragorn might have known of a way into Mordor near the source of the River Poros, or a few more leagues to the south, at the head of a different (unnamed?) river that begins in the Mountains of Shadow and empties into Núrnen from the west.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome

Apr 27, 7:47pm
Post #39 of 51
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It was a key episode when Southrons and their oliphaunts were marching north to the Morannon but were waylaid by Faramir's men just as F&S were in the vicinity. It wouldn't make sense that they'd skip a more handy southern pass that was a shortcut. I'm sure an argument could be made for it, but still seems flaky in my mind, so better left forgotten. I personally have long wondered if Sauron communicated with Rhun and Harad by sending messengers into eastern Mordor were there were no mountains, then they could go north or south and not be witnessed by Gondor (unless by palantir). Anyway, thanks for sharing that with us. Because on its own, it does make sense (in early drafts) that Sauron would have a more direct route to Harad. We can see Tolkien's part-Vulcan mind working logically as he crafted his stories. The Nargil pass would serve as a shortcut for Orcs or Men coming into Mordor from the region of Khand or the interior of Near Harad, but not so much from the regions of Harondor or Umbar, assuming their goal was the plateau of Gorgoroth and not, say, delivering slaves to Nurn. I also suspect that Sauron wanted his armies to be seen moving through Ithilien as a tactic to demoralize the people of Gondor.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Silvered-glass
Menegroth
Apr 27, 9:50pm
Post #40 of 51
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Realistically, were there many practical options for Aragorn to lead Frodo and Sam into Mordor? I can only think of a handful: 1. The Black Gate. Too risky; it would have to rely on disguise and deception.This would almost certainly fail. 2. Minas Morgal. Same as above. 3. The pass of Cirith Ungol. Between the Phial of Galadriel and Aragorn's fighting prowness, this would be dangerous but doable. 4. Circumvent either the Ash Mountains or the Mountains of Shadow and enter Mordor from the East. This would take too long, would require extra supplies, and would pose too much risk of discovery. 5. Enter through some other secret or little-known pass that might be unguarded or at least poorly guarded. This might be feasible if such a pass existed. However, we have no solid evidence that this is the case. 6. Enlist the Great Eagles to fly to Mount Doom. There's a good chance that the Eagles would refuse. Aragorn would probably be unaware yet that the Ringwraiths were using winged mounts. Nonetheless, Eagles could be spotted from the ground, triggering an alert. Also, there is the possibility that the Ring could corrupt even one of the great raptors, esp. as Mount Doom drew near. Have I overlooked anything? Aragorn could also have tried Alpine climbing over something that doesn't qualify as a pass and therefore wasn't guarded. The problems with this option: 1. The sheer technical difficulty of the climb and the presence of total amateurs in the party. 2. The problems with choosing a good climbing route with limited information. 3. If Sauron suspects climbing attempts somewhere on his mountains, he would be expected to produce a storm to further raise the difficulty level. 4. Galadriel didn't gift any pitons and Aragorn probably didn't pack any himself, considering he didn't pack rope either. (Do they have pitons in Middle-earth?) 5. Climbing mountains at night to avoid being spotted is generally not the safest idea. This option has lower chances of being caught but is very dangerous nevertheless.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 27, 10:21pm
Post #41 of 51
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I also suspect that Sauron wanted his armies to be seen moving through Ithilien as a tactic to demoralize the people of Gondor.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Apr 28, 6:10pm
Post #42 of 51
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bloody great pocketses with bugger-all inside
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My local crowd of singsong louts includes a codger or two who will pull this song out pretty regularly. It’s a rouser. But I had a revelation when I went to see Atonement some years ago. A room full of soldiers in the Dunkirk Evacuation sequence of that film bellows this song, and they are not singing “bless.” I had never questioned the words I’d been given, and I sat there in the theater with my mouth open murmuring [ii]ooooooohhh as the proper original meaning sank in. I had only known it as purged of the gross. As regards moments of purpose at odds with intention, I might add Frodo’s long hesitation before he ever leaves Bag End. Not with certainty, but I think it bears consideration. I am used to thinking of his reluctance to leave as a liability, and of course the author fully intends to raise the stakes by it and as a reader that’s what I’m feeling, but one could imagine as well that it’s providential, that for some indirect reason that’s never made explicit, all might have gone wrong if he’d taken the plain and quiet path of leaving the Shire before any eldritch horrors arrived to hunt him out of it. But to your older registry of most-dangerous moments, I have a late addition, or a very early one, at least within the somewhat questionable perspective of taking the Hobbit and LOTR as one continuous whole: Bilbo standing on the edge of Smaug’s bedchamber, exchanging wisecracks with a being he can nowise handle, with the One Ring in his pocket. If at any point Smaug had simply toasted the poor fellow instead of fishing for information, he’d have been more than recompensed for his missing cup and Gandalf would have a vastly worse problem on his hands than the ones he started with.
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noWizardme
Gondolin

Apr 28, 6:38pm
Post #43 of 51
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Frodo dillied and dallied, dallied and he dillied
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Ah, but that's another old song. My brain sometimes turns somersaults when I think about everyone turning up on time to Council of Elrond where many paths and errands meet and Elrond says
‘What shall we do with the Ring... 'That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come here and here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world. So a lot depends on who has turned up. I wonder, is everyone elses' journey timed to co-incide with Frodo's dilly-dallying, or what would have happened had Frodo set off for Rivendell without a handkerchief, before (say) Boromir had even set out for Rivendell? (I don't know the answer of course!) And of course if Frodo had been determined to set out at once, maybe Gandalf woudl have taken him to Saruman for advice. Now that could have gone wrong... Yes, narrow miss with Smaug! Always find out what a hobbit has in its pocketses!
~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 28, 6:39pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 29, 4:13pm
Post #44 of 51
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As the scales tip back and forth
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between the score of Good Guys vs. Bad Guys, and feeling like Frodo & Co have barely made it to Rivendell alive and in one piece and thus with a score like 0-2, I think the heavy hand of fate helps nudge the score to 1-2 with all these improbably timed arrivals that weld together the Fellowship and the coalition that will ultimately save the day. Or more concisely: yes. I think that whatever Frodo did, fate would have foreseen it, and they would all arrive together. Fate doesn't solve all their other problems, which is key: hence the Council and all the rest. I like the mosaic effect: fate is one stone, Gandalf another, Frodo another, etc, together creating the picture of the Good Guys winning 3-2.
So a lot depends on who has turned up. I wonder, is everyone elses' journey timed to co-incide with Frodo's dilly-dallying, or what would have happened had Frodo set off for Rivendell without a handkerchief, before (say) Boromir had even set out for Rivendell?
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Asger
Ossiriand

Apr 30, 5:15am
Post #45 of 51
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So a lot depends on who has turned up. I wonder, is everyone elses' journey timed to co-incide with Frodo's dilly-dallying, or what would have happened had Frodo set off for Rivendell without a handkerchief, before (say) Boromir had even set out for Rivendell? (I don't know the answer of course!) [\reply] Or maybe every other day one or two strangers turn up at Rivendell, and this was just the bunch that was available this week.
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo www.willy-centret.dk
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Apr 30, 1:34pm
Post #46 of 51
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The Council of Elrond we read about was really the 78th Council in that year alone. //
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Asger
Ossiriand

Apr 30, 1:53pm
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This coinsides with the theory that Gandalf every few years sends a hapless Hobbit on an errantry to seek treasures, especially rings…
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo www.willy-centret.dk
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noWizardme
Gondolin

May 5, 11:09am
Post #48 of 51
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Thinking about Cremona's conjecture
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Which was, as posted above:
it is part of the schema of The Lord of the Rings that what seems to be setbacks, blunders and delays, turn out to have been useful shortcuts; though I think Tolkien would have argued that, had they done other-wise, with a good intention, that too might have led to the quest's end, but by a different path. Ilúvatar, as ever, does not compel or predestine, but his plans are far-seeing and the roads to his ends, many. [letter to Beyond Bree, June 1991, p. 10] ...If that's right then one of the particularly nasty things about the One Ring is that it is a destroyer of good intentions: those things that can allow you (Cremona implies) to 'roll again' after a setback or blunder. Gandalf to Frodo:
Yes, sooner or later - later if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the Dark Power will devour him. (my italics) ~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

May 5, 2:14pm
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I guess I see more "exploiter" than "destroyer"
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and I don't mean to quibble over semantics with you, but I feel like the One Ring is an opportunist that is somehow keenly attuned to a person's psyche, and it exploits their good intentions like they're a superhighway into the soul, where in the darkness it (or Sauron) can bind them. Ultimately, I fully agree, their good intentions are destroyed by corruption.
'Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good.' --Gandalf to Frodo
'You’d stop them digging up the Gaffer and turning him adrift. You’d make some folk pay for their dirty work.’ ‘I would,’ she said. ‘That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas! --Sam and Galadriel
Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dûr. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be. --Sam in Mordor
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noWizardme
Gondolin

May 5, 3:18pm
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For Smeagol:
...and he caught Deagol by the throat and strangled him, because the gold looked so bright and beautiful. Then he put the ring on his finger. So for Smeagol there is no need for good intentions to pave the road to Hell. But you're right for the other characters. At first they plan, or tell themselves they plan, to use the Ring for good. So I agree the Ring is an exploiter. And then those intentions do get corrupted and worn away. We probably can't tell for sure whether the good intention was genuine but gets corrupted, or was always concealing some less noble idea. I just re-read Boromir's speech to Frodo just before Boromir tries to catach Frodo by the throat and strangle him, because the defence of Gondor is so necessary. I do like the way the speech picks up intensity as soon as Boromir allows himself to voice the idea that he could take the Ring:
Boromir got up and walked about impatiently. 'So you go on,' he cried. 'Gandalf, Elrond–all these folk have taught you to say so. For themselves they may be right. These elves and half-elves and wizards, they would come to grief perhaps. Yet often I doubt if they are wise and not merely timid. But each to his own kind. True-hearted Men, they will not be corrupted. We of Minas Tirith have been staunch through long years of trial. We do not desire the power of wizard-lords, only strength to defend ourselves, strength in a just cause. And behold! in our need chance brings to light the Ring of Power. It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory. What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!' Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly. Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise. ~~~~~~ "I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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