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noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 21, 5:53pm

Post #1 of 51 (33790 views)
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'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the Company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf’s trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?' He knelt for a while, bent with weeping, still clasping Boromir’s hand. So it was that Legolas and Gimli found him.

Departure of Boromir



This is, I think the rock-bottom point for Aragorn. Yes, in the end it will turn out that the breaking of the Fellowship has a whole lot of consequences without which it is hard to imagine The Ring Quest succeeding, or there being much left of Rohan and Gondor by the time it does. But that's no future Aragorn can see at this point.


I've been thinking about two things: firstly, how Tolkien includes failure in his story. Secondly, about the extent to which Aragorn's self-criticism here is valid.


The first won't take too long, and the second probably needs its own post.


I note that in many tales, the Hero's Journey is principally about the Hero. Stories can take what you might call The Experience Points approach. The Hero is challenged by a steadily more difficult opponents or circumstances, thus providing repeated peril and excitement until we get to the boss battle (or whatever). Maybe no failure by the Hero is involved, or it's quickly reveresed. Alternatively, the hero's setbacks and failures lead to character development, and so provide peril and excitement as well as a pathway towards however it is that the story ends.


I don't think either of those apply entirely to Aragorn here. As already said, this low point does start plot threads which lead to success. But I don't tis failure as containing some lesson Aragorn must learn before he is fiit to be King.
And nor do those tropes apply to, say, the very end of the Ring Quest (where Frodo cannot bring himself to do the last step, but via a quite stunning plot twist, the Quest succeeds anyway). I read LOTR for the first time long enough ago that I could do so without knowing how it ended. Had you asked me to guess, I suppose I'd have said that I expected Frodo to be able to destroy the Ring himself - because of my familiarity with stories in which the Hero's personal growth, prior experiences, or odd and apparently useless gifts acquired on the way from some strange old lady turn out to be just enough to complete the mission.

Why might Tolkien not conform to the expected tropes? Well to surprise and delight the audience paerhaps! But I'm also trying on the idea -- let me know what you think -- that the Quest in Tolkien is not all about the Hero, who may need to be content just to be part of something.
This idea is put neatly at the end of The Hobbit:

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Then the prophecies of the old songs have turned out to be true, after a fashion!” said Bilbo.

'Of course!' said Gandalf. 'And why should not they prove true? Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!'

'Thank goodness!' said Bilbo laughing, and handed him the tobacco-jar.
TH, The Last Stage


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 21, 6:42pm

Post #2 of 51 (33707 views)
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Who broke the Fellowship? [In reply to] Can't Post

As promised in my header post, I've also been thinking about Aragorn's burst of self-reproach immediately after Boromir's death. To what extent is he responsible or accountable for the crisis and apparent disaster? With any luck it will link back to my broader point about the failures of Tolkien heroes -- or at least not distract everyone totally from any discussion folks might like to offer of that wider point.

A blogger going by Never Felt Better (NFB" hereafter) has one of the best critiques I've seen of Aragorn's leadership of the Fellowship between Gandalf's death and Boromir's. NFB's chapter-by-chapter readthrough of LOTR is, in fact, very often interesting and insightful. I'll pick out some passages here, but warmly recommend the whole thing. It is worth saying that NFB is a military historian. And so his critique of Aragorn is rooted in how Aragorn comes across as the leader of a small detatchment moving about in conditions of wartime. I find that very interesting and helpful, though in the end we'll get to something I think that approach misses.


I think we can pick things up with The Great River:

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As the three boats head down the Anduin, a serious malaise is evident in the Fellowship. Despite the fact that they can see a serious need for speed, they’re all happy to just drift along at the rivers pace. This isn’t supposed to be some pleasant excursion in the outdoors, and Aragorn’s dilly dallying over the coming choice is almost painful to read, his excuse-making rather evident…

The Fellowship is drifting though, some of them anyway, daydreaming the voyage away. Of course, this isn’t a military expedition but you would still expect them to have a longer attention span than this. Boromir is showing very obvious outward signs of paranoia and nervousness now – “…muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him” – but aside from making Merry and Pippin a bit uncomfortable, no one deems it attention worthy. Aragorn especially is going to rue this lack of notice later and it is unforgivable in this context. The signs have been there since we were first introduced to Boromir in “The Council of Elrond”, and he has very gradually transformed into a different person, we’re simply reaching the climax of his not-so-secret desire.…

Aragorn hasn’t been great at the whole leadership thing so far, and it nearly results in catastrophe in this chapter. His knowledge of local geography fails completely, as the three boats nearly sail head first into a treacherous course of rapids, a move that the reader can well imagine to be near suicidal. I can only surmise that Tolkien, in portraying Aragorn in the leadership role as bumbling, indecisive and blind in a lot of respects, is pulling him down in order to build him up to an even greater height in the coming Books. Book Three will see him improve all the way up to his own fateful moments in Book Five. Right now, the impression you get is of a man who is in way over his head, not unfit for command, but simply unready. “Would that Gandalf were here!” seems to be ever-present in his mind, along with the two options open to him: follow the “summons” to Minis Tirith, or go with Frodo to Mordor, a choice now symbolised by either bank of the very river they sail upon.

The Lord Of The Rings, Chapter By Chapter: The Great River


The Great River chapter mostly does seem to pump up that tension of the unmade but inevitable decision until we know it's going to explode. At last, camping at Path Galen, no further kicking the can down the road is possible:


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When it comes right down to the decision, Aragorn definitively passes the buck to Frodo, washing his hands of all responsibility: “I fear that the burden is laid upon you. You are the Bearer appointed by the Council…Such is your fate.”. The future King might never have a worse moment as the designated chivalrous character. He seems to excuse it by claiming that Gandalf didn’t have a plan either, but that’s weak. Frodo appears strained, Aragorn’s words only adding to his pain. I’m not sure why this decision is being placed on Frodo’s shoulders alone, it’s not like he has the geopolitical experience to recognise the challenges. He doesn’t even know how difficult it is to get into Mordor, as the first few chapters of Book Four will show. He pulls his own Aragorn act, choosing to vanish into the woods for a while rather than make the choice, a choice he has already really made. Aragorn, naturally, lets him go, probably delighted that he gets to put the decision off for another few hours. I think it is at this point that the weaknesses of the Aragorn character start to grate, but thankfully they’re already at their zenith.

The Lord Of The Rings, Chapter By Chapter: The Breaking Of The Fellowship


I think there is something to add to NFB's analysis of Aragorn here, but we'll get to that! First, how does Frodo get on with being handed this decision:


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… Frodo is running away again, but it is in a far less panicky way then what happened in “The Old Forest”. There, it was terror and stress combining to produce an almost childish rejection of logical thinking. Here, it’s stress again, and a measure of denial, but Frodo isn’t panicking. He’s grown that much. As stated, Frodo has actually already made his decision at this point, but I think that we’ve all been in a similar situation – not anywhere near as important of course, but similar – where we have made a decision but still agonise, dither, hum and haw about its implementation. Frodo is a reluctant character and always has been. He was reluctant to see Bilbo leave and to become “the” Baggins of Bag End, he was reluctant to leave the Shire, to leave Bombadil’s home, Rivendell, Lorien. It’s just a continuation of that.

This is not Frodo’s most momentous choice, which was back in “The Council Of Elrond” when he took the Ring in the first place. But it is another pivotal moment, another point of no return. I suppose one can forgive Frodo for his little retreat here. Every bad decision he has made so far, from leaving the Shire so late, blundering through the Old Forest, the drunken antics of the Prancing Pony, must be going through his mind all at once. These are all intangible problems of course, and do not matter in the long run. A much more physical obstacle is about to appear.

We’ve come to the defining moment of this opening part of the The Lord of the Rings, and it takes the unique form of a somewhat crazed Boromir, which is original enough when you think about it. It’s a gutsy call from the author, making this the climax of The Fellowship of the Ring, rather than some kind of fight scene. A lesser author would have put Boromir and Aragorn up against each other in some fashion I think, but what Tolkien produces is far more memorable.

The Lord Of The Rings, Chapter By Chapter: The Breaking Of The Fellowship


And lastly, let's have NFB's comments on Aragorn's Departure of Boromir decision to follow M&P, not F&S (and the Ring):


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Aragorn makes his decision, choosing to go after Merry and Pippin: “And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day”. Foresight says it’s the right one, but you could argue that it isn’t at the time. Merry and Pippin are nice guys, but the Ring-bearer is the Ring-bearer. His is the most important part of the quest, and Aragorn decides to cut him loose here, sending him against the might of Mordor with just his gardener for company. Considering that Aragorn must be aware of the difficulties in just gaining access to Mordor, it’s a pivotal choice. In this decision, Aragorn decides that Frodo has it in him to get to Mordor, make it past the defences, and get to Mt Doom without his assistance. Much is left to fate in this moment, to the machinations of a higher power. But there is the example of Boromir fresh in the mind of Aragorn I suppose. Most crucially, things are going to go a lot better for Aragorn when he makes his own decisions without feeling the pressure of having to live up to Gandalf’s leadership.

The Lord Of The Rings, Chapter By Chapter: The Departure Of Boromir


How fair does all that seem to you? Mostly fair, I'd say. But to me there is an important point. The Ring Quest is Frodo's alone. Gandalf has been clear on this: so have Elrond and so as Galadriel. Insofar as miliatary analogies are helpful I think we have to see the Fellowship as Frodo's escourt - keeping him safe, navigating: but, surely, leaving the decisions concerning The Ring to him. Nobody wise in the book tries to tell Frodo what he should do - which is hard for Frodo, who keeps looking for advice or instruction (from Gandalf, Gildor, Elrond, Galadriel...)

So I think that a mitigating factor for Aragorn is that he is waiting for Frodo. And, as NFB rightly says Frodo is a reluctant character and always has been.

And that's my answer to NFB's I’m not sure why this decision [MInas Trith next, or straight to Mordor?] is being placed on Frodo’s shoulders alone, it’s not like he has the geopolitical experience to recognise the challenges. I think we are supposed to accept that Frodo is The Chosen One. Aragorn follwing the lead of Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel not to know how Frodo is going to do what he is 'meant' to do, but trusting that he will. The whole Fellowship - quick enough to advance their ideas of what should happen when Frodo is out of earshot at Part Galen - seem to respect that Frodo shouldn't be swayed this way and that. Only Boromir tries the opposite - and look what happens to him.

To what extent do you think this lets Aragorn off the hook?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath

Apr 22, 1:27pm

Post #3 of 51 (32521 views)
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There are two who were most responsible for the Breaking of the Fellowship [In reply to] Can't Post

Morgoth Bauglir and Eru Ilúvatar.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Apr 22, 3:14pm

Post #4 of 51 (32515 views)
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But I will add a point or two that I think Aragorn is probably well aware of. On, which NFB alludes to in the “example of Boromir” fresh in Aragorn’s mind, is the mechanism of the Ring and the central nature of Gandalf’s grand gambit: only the small and humble can hope to handle the Ring and stay on task. Aragorn is lofty and great and we’d like to think he has the “fibre” to resist the working of Sauron’ temptation machine, but every other wise advisor has refused in full knowledge that it is irresistible, and I think Aragorn knows he’s not really immune. He understands why this is Frodo’s quest, and I think he has a good working awareness (for supporting evidence, his deathbed speech to Arwen in the appendices) of the hand of providence operating in his world.

The other thing is, there are two basically coequal top-level plot arcs here. The nigh-impossible destruction of the Ring is one, and Sauron cannot be defeated if it fails. But the other is the reëstablishment of a proper Númenórean king, and there can be no meaningful victory for most of the people anywhere within a few days’ march of Mordor or Rohan without that, either. And that simply cannot happen in any other way than by Aragorn’s personal dedication to the royal ascension project.

He has to go be king. He wants to go be king, to win the marriage he desires and restore the elevated state of his line and all the other benefits of being king, but he also must go be king in order to save the world. And he simultaneously must get himself well shot of Frodo because hanging around the Ring as it approaches Mordor will make him a liability, and he knows it.

So really the choice is already made. So why is it so hard to make?

I would say, Aragorn’s great reluctance here is precisely that he is the sort of guy who doesn’t want to let anybody down, and is indeed accustomed to being able to look after the less lofty people around him. It [i[feels scurrilous and dishonorable to leave Frodo and Sam in the lurch, headed off into a suicide quest that (in every other way but ability to resist the Ring) he himself is vastly more qualified, maybe ideally qualified, to undertake instead of them, or else to shepherd them through.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 22, 5:47pm

Post #5 of 51 (31887 views)
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"And he simultaneously must get himself well shot of Frodo... " [In reply to] Can't Post

...not only as you say since he can't be both substitute-Gandalf and the Returning King, but also I liked:


In Reply To

Aragorn is lofty and great and we’d like to think he has the “fibre” to resist the working of Sauron’ temptation machine, but every other wise advisor has refused in full knowledge that it is irresistible, and I think Aragorn knows he’s not really immune. He understands why this is Frodo’s quest, and I think he has a good working awareness (for supporting evidence, his deathbed speech to Arwen in the appendices) of the hand of providence operating in his world.


And on the possible Temptations of Aragorn, I noticed something re-reading a passage from the Fellowship's conclusionless discussion on their last night in Lorien:


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[Aragorn's] own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir. And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?


Until now I had read this as Aragorn being unwilling to desert Frodo, or not do his bit to further the most important strategic goal (a la NFB's argument against Aragorn dropping Frodo to save M&P). Maybe that is what Tolkien meant. But his text reads 'he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring'. Not, I notice 'he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring [Quest]' , or 'he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring [Bearer]'. Read literally, it's the Ring Aragorn knows he can't forsake.

I think one could also pick apart some muddled thinking in 'he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir'. If Frodo does go with Boromir, for (another) short vacation to follow the Lorien one they are just finishing, he must set out again for Mordor. So unless Aragorn has dunstrivin' with Sauron for the mastery' by that day, he's merely lining up the return of his current dilemma on the day when Frodo sets out from Minas Tirith again.

I've tended to assume in the past that Aragorn is doing something very Gandalfian - waiting patiently without much by way of long-term planto see some sign of what is supposed to happen. That, as you'll remember from our recent discussion about Frodo on Amon Hen is why I think Aragorn does waste time (as it turns out) going to the hill himself. Aragorn arguing with himself, as we get in this quote fits with that.


But I think one could reasonably wonder whether Tolkien is suggesting a little bit of Ring-temptation too.

The passage of LOTR I've quoted goes on with Boromir giving a speech about how he's going to Minas Tirith anyway: and then he makes a slip with reveals he is thinking again of using the Ring, but is still arguing with himself. I like how Tolkien uses point of view here (my bolds):


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At length he spoke again, softly, as if he was debating with himself. 'If you wish only to destroy the Ring,' he said, 'then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.' He paused suddenly, as if he had become aware that he was speaking his thoughts aloud. 'It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean,' he ended. 'It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death. At least, that is how I see it.'

Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir’s glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly Boromir’s thought was different from his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power? He had said something like this at the Council, but then he had accepted the correction of Elrond. Frodo looked at Aragorn, but he seemed deep in his own thought and made no sign that he had heeded Boromir’s words. And so their debate ended.


Point of view means Frodo catches it, we readers catch it, but Aragorn is apparently unawares and Frodo is isolated from anyone else in the Company who saw that too.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 22, 5:55pm

Post #6 of 51 (31828 views)
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a rattle, just at the limit of hearing, of the gods' dice box? [In reply to] Can't Post

In one of Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld books (Colour of Magic, I think) some extreme and comical see-sawings of our heroes' fortunes are preceded by that odd sound, and it is explained as the gods' dicebox - the characters being the pieces in a tabletop game the Discworld gods are playing.
Is that the sort of thing you have in mind?

While Boromir at Parth Galen does something that has clearly been building up awhile, the bit where 'a sudden madness' seems to strike the Company and they scatter does seem like there might have been a rattle or two.

(Apolgies if I have misunderstood, and if so, please do expand on your comment!)

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath

Apr 22, 6:13pm

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And then there was One [In reply to] Can't Post

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 23, 4:20pm

Post #8 of 51 (23162 views)
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The 'feigned theology' behind 'oft evil will shall evil mar,' presumably [In reply to] Can't Post

And the consequences of the Breaking of the Fellowship do seem to be a splendid example of that. As Gandalf points out, of course:


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'Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed so grevious as the treason of Isengard... Yet a treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand. Saruman also had a mind to capture the Ring, for himself, or at least to snare some hobbits for his evil purposes. So between them our enemies have contrived only to bring Merry and Pippin with marvellous speed, and in the nick of time, to Fangorn, where otherwise they would never have come at all!

'Also they have filled themselves with new doubts that disturb their plans. No tidings of the battle will come to Mordor, thanks to the horsemen of Rohan; but the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants. He now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith falls, it will go ill with Saruman.


And that's just Saruman's orc raid. Whatever or Whoever Power or Powers that might have been rooting for Boromir to take the Ring has contrived to disentangle the two main quests of our tale so that Aragorn can go and save Rohan and Gondor, and the Ringbearers can go Ringbearing.

Ah the Yin and Yang of free choice and fate in Arda...

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Apr 23, 4:20pm

Post #9 of 51 (23159 views)
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I think you have quite reversed me [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And on the possible Temptations of Aragorn, I noticed something re-reading a passage from the Fellowship's conclusionless discussion on their last night in Lorien:


Quote
[Aragorn's] own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir. And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?



Interesting as your read is, that there could be seen a first breath of Ring temptation here, it seems pretty definitive, summarized this way in the third-person narration. At least sitting here in Lothlorien, Aragorn believes he must follow the Ring even at the cost of his own crucial quest. This suggests that he does not worry that he will be tempted and fall to that temptation—perhaps because he does not yet have the concrete example of Boromir to observe? Unless indeed he is already falling. But I don’t think the professor would have been entertaining that, honestly. He wants his king pure, even if fallible.

Does it also suggest that Aragorn believes Gandalf intended to infiltrate Mordor with the Ring himself? Always leaving hobbits with the job of handling the dangerous payload, but shepherding them as closely as he might, because this time there can be no “more pressing business” elsewhere? This is one of the hardest things in the book to guess, I think. Gandalf does have a healthy respect for the Ring’s temptation. Does he think he’ll be able to snatch it for a moment, just long enough to sling it into the fire the way he once did at Bag End? But then he knew he wasn’t hurting it. I think he would have known that he couldn’t.

Back to Aragorn himself, it’s a secondary point, but it’s goofy for him to think he would have nothing to offer Frodo on his mission. He’s the greatest wilderness guide on the side of the gods, here, and we know he has specifically hunted on the fences of Mordor before. I think the professor is just trying to set him up with a hard decision to make at Parth Galen.

Which makes it a little funny that in a way, Frodo is obliged to retain the services of a fellow I had never previously thought of as Aragorn’s opposite number, on a certain axis: the greatest evil wilderness guide in this world.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath

Apr 23, 4:36pm

Post #10 of 51 (23043 views)
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Well said! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 23, 5:24pm

Post #11 of 51 (22707 views)
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And to be honest Uncle I, 'your' interpretation is the more likely one, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

...in which Aragorn has snookered himself because his chivalrous instincts point one way and duty the opposite way.

Fun to try out an alternative reading though.

Aragorn's eventual decision to rescue M&P and leave Frodo to Providence is the one that finally makes him feel he's made a right choice, I notice. And in a way it reminds me of Sam's wrong-but-right choice not to finish the Ring Quest on his own and then go back to poor 'dead' Frodo.

Tolkien does seem to like such wrong-right choices...



And now another point of note:

In Reply To
Which makes it a little funny that in a way, Frodo is obliged to retain the services of a fellow I had never previously thought of as Aragorn’s opposite number, on a certain axis: the greatest evil wilderness guide in this world.


I had never thought of that either, and now I am enjoying it very much.Heart

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 23, 5:26pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 23, 5:31pm

Post #12 of 51 (22647 views)
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Apologies for any 'Baha Men' earworm I have caused ... [In reply to] Can't Post

'Who Broke the Fellowship' - Who? Who? Who? Who?
Evil

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Apr 24, 7:45am

Post #13 of 51 (15787 views)
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Aragorn's Alternate Route [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Unless indeed he is already falling. But I don’t think the professor would have been entertaining that, honestly. He wants his king pure, even if fallible.


I think the ones who want Aragorn to be pure are Tolkien's readers rather than Tolkien himself.


In Reply To
Which makes it a little funny that in a way, Frodo is obliged to retain the services of a fellow I had never previously thought of as Aragorn’s opposite number, on a certain axis: the greatest evil wilderness guide in this world.


I think Aragorn wouldn't have been able to find a way through the Dead Marshes. I think a way through wouldn't even have existed for someone so much heavier than a hobbit. Aragorn would have needed to take the way around the marshes, and the plot would have taken a different turn.

I have no idea how Aragorn would have imagined to sneak into Mordor. It later on turns out that even Gollum's comings and goings had been noted.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Apr 24, 1:35pm

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Aragorn's Plans for Mordor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think Aragorn wouldn't have been able to find a way through the Dead Marshes. I think a way through wouldn't even have existed for someone so much heavier than a hobbit. Aragorn would have needed to take the way around the marshes, and the plot would have taken a different turn.

I have no idea how Aragorn would have imagined to sneak into Mordor. It later on turns out that even Gollum's comings and goings had been noted.


I can't imagine that Aragorn would have led Frodo to the Black Gate at all, so the Dead Marshes would not have been an issue. It's entirely possible that Aragorn was aware of a secret pass into Mordor that even Sauron was unaware of. Such a route might have brought them to the region of Nurn, south of the plain of Gorgortoth.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Apr 24, 4:40pm

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Routes to Mordor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can't imagine that Aragorn would have led Frodo to the Black Gate at all, so the Dead Marshes would not have been an issue. It's entirely possible that Aragorn was aware of a secret pass into Mordor that even Sauron was unaware of. Such a route might have brought them to the region of Nurn, south of the plain of Gorgortoth.


Yes, taking the long way around probably would have been a smart idea based on the map. However the lack of supplies would have become a problem that needed to be solved somehow. I'm however not so convinced of the idea that Aragorn knew of a secret way to Mordor. Perhaps he might have tried to scale the pathless mountains down where they were lower and not so impassable, or he could have taken a supply road disguised as a traveler from Harad on some legitimate business. But this is all speculative, as the plot would have become entirely changed from the original.

The Southern route proposed by Boromir sounds to me like it was really the best option all along. The route would have minimized the time spent near Mordor and allowed a relatively direct approach to the presumably easier Nûrn route to Mordor.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Apr 24, 5:18pm

Post #16 of 51 (12207 views)
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The Mountains of Shadow [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
[Aragorn (as Thoringil)] sent a message of farewell to Ecthelion, saying: ‘‘Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.’’ Though none could guess what those tasks might be, nor what summons he had received, it was known whither he went. For he took boat and crossed over Anduin, and there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone; and when he was last seen his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow.
- The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A


Quote
It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor....
- The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A


In the year 2980 Aragorn spent a significant amount of time investigating the borders of Mordor before he was reunited with Arwen in Lothlórien. This is purely speculative, but if anyone knew of a secret passage into Mordor other than Cirith Ungol then it would have been him. On the other hand, perhaps Aragorn would have even risked dealing with Shelob.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 24, 5:21pm)


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Apr 24, 7:13pm

Post #17 of 51 (11366 views)
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Secret Routes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
[Aragorn (as Thoringil)] sent a message of farewell to Ecthelion, saying: ‘‘Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.’’ Though none could guess what those tasks might be, nor what summons he had received, it was known whither he went. For he took boat and crossed over Anduin, and there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone; and when he was last seen his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow.
- The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A


Quote
It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor....
- The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A


In the year 2980 Aragorn spent a significant amount of time investigating the borders of Mordor before he was reunited with Arwen in Lothlórien. This is purely speculative, but if anyone knew of a secret passage into Mordor other than Cirith Ungol then it would have been him. On the other hand, perhaps Aragorn would have even risked dealing with Shelob.


I tend to think that Aragorn couldn't find a secret passage that even Sauron didn't know about because Sauron knew about all the marginally plausible routes already. The example of Cirith Ungol shows that Sauron was serious about guarding his borders. If Sauron had had happened to overlook one obscure passage, he would have discovered it when he had started to look into Orcs going out and disappearing to seek a better life. Aragorn would have needed to find a passage that neither Sauron nor the local Orcs had discovered, and I think that's too much major character special treatment to be plausible.

The quoted passages are notably vague on what exactly Aragorn was doing and where exactly did he go. I see no evidence that he went past the Mountains of Shadow let alone found a secret path that even Gollum didn't find.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Apr 24, 9:45pm

Post #18 of 51 (10178 views)
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Not so secret routes [In reply to] Can't Post

This is my gut feeling too:


Quote
I tend to think that Aragorn couldn't find a secret passage that even Sauron didn't know about because Sauron knew about all the marginally plausible routes already.


But I'm also tempted to think there would be passes that were too small to be used by an army, obscure, difficult to traverse, and far away from Barad-dur, so they would be more lightly guarded than Cirith Ungol was. If Aragorn really took the time to spy out much/all of Mordor's mountains and potential passes, he might have counted on a sort of "hillbilly" post, where there are 4 guards, who are drunk most of the time, and who never pay attention past midnight (just making that up on the fly as an example, not for debate, so it might have been possible to sneak by rather than fight through. Just speculating.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Apr 25, 2:12am

Post #19 of 51 (7973 views)
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agreed also [In reply to] Can't Post

It is not possible to post watchful guards along the whole length of a mountain range such that there are no holes in the cordon. If Aragorn were a good enough mountaineer he might just avoid the posts. The further one gets from the Morannon, as you say, the easier that probably is. I might think to head west rather than south, to angle for an unexpected approach to Orodruin.

BUT I’m sure the professor’s response would be, all of this will simply take too long, and the war would be lost before you got in sight of the mountain.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Apr 25, 6:44am

Post #20 of 51 (5607 views)
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Mordor's Paranoid Security [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But I'm also tempted to think there would be passes that were too small to be used by an army, obscure, difficult to traverse, and far away from Barad-dur, so they would be more lightly guarded than Cirith Ungol was. If Aragorn really took the time to spy out much/all of Mordor's mountains and potential passes, he might have counted on a sort of "hillbilly" post, where there are 4 guards, who are drunk most of the time, and who never pay attention past midnight (just making that up on the fly as an example, not for debate, so it might have been possible to sneak by rather than fight through. Just speculating.


Cirith Ungol should have been that type of lax outpost, but it very much wasn't, because Mordor isn't a normal country. The precedent of Cirith Ungol gives us a baseline of what to expect in marginal passes too small and inconvenient to be used by an army, difficult to traverse, and not too close to Barad-dûr. The edges of Nûrn might have something more open, but even there fleeing slaves are a concern, and I think Mordor is the sort of paranoid place that would be expected to fortify and guard closely the gap between Nûrn and Gorgoroth.


Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin

Apr 25, 7:38am

Post #21 of 51 (5209 views)
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Aragorns' contribution to the quest [In reply to] Can't Post

In a more optimistic note we could mention Aragorns successes in the tale. Might be a good quiz question to ask without looking! Of the top of my head I can think of, guiding the Hobbits to Rivendell and escaping from the nazgul. Although I am never sure if that had to be Aragorn or if any of the Rangers could have done it. Leading the company after Gandalfs' death. The little trick with the paths of the dead. Been one of the few that dared to attack and be active against sauron with the Palantir. And I suppose in general been an all round
good companion and leader.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 25, 6:22pm

Post #22 of 51 (4871 views)
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I like to think [In reply to] Can't Post

...that entry into Mordor really is impossible, until our hobbits create a gap in the defences that wasn't there before by sheer ....hobbityness.

In fact just today I found a curious scrap of paper in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, in a book last checked out by one JRR Tolkien. As far as I can decipher the light, illegible pencil, it's a memo about being invited by mistake onto a 'secure chat' in which Sauron and his Counsellor discussed Mordor's defences as follows:


Sauron: The defences of Mordor are now impregnable! No army or spy can get in, and my miserable slaves must live in despair with no hope of escape! Bwah-ha-ha!

Counsellor of Sauron: Bwah-ha-ha indeed Lord. But I was just wondering… what if…?

Sauron: All right Cossie, let’s hear your ‘what if?’ But if it doesn’t work, I zap you with the Aieee! of Sauron.

Cossie: Er, don’t you mean “Eye of Sauron” Lord?

Sauron: No. I have a new thing. look!

ZAAAAP!

Cossie: Aieee!!! Ah yes Lord, you are right.

Sauron: So you were wondering; “what if…?”?

Cossie: Yes Lord. What if intruders try the Stair of Cirith Ungol…

Sauron: Shelob gets them...

Cossie: … but they are able to injure or kill Shelob?

Sauron: You’d need an old elf blade out of Gondolin even to scratch…. But allright, you want to imagine that this intruder is a fella redeploying old devastating ordnance, I suppose. No matter! Any fight with Shelob will alert the Tower of Cirith Ungol and they can swarm this elven warrior fella. Doesn't matter what elvish hardware he's got then. If needs be I can empty out a whole orc chasm! And how many orc chasms do I have Cossie?

Cossie: Your Lordship has multiple orc chasms. He often does us the honour of sharing this information, and we are always glad for him. But, my Lord, what if the intruder is killed or captured but has some loot so valuable that the Tower orcs start fighting over it and all kill each other?

Sauron: By Morgoth, a reasonable proposition at last! Yes our master plan of keeping our orcs at each others' throats can have that effect. That’s why we have the watchers, idiot! In case of attack, riot, mutiny, flashmob or filibuster among the orcs, the Watchers lock the Tower down until more reliable servants arrive. Time to zap you?

Cossie: But, but Lord! What if… What if there’s a second intruder?

Sauron: They are both either dead or captives in the Tower. So...

ZAAAP!

Cossie: Aieee! But, Lord, what if the second intruder missed the fight with the orcs and is free and is outside the Tower?

Sauron: And that happened because…?

Cossie: Maybe because the first intruder was stung by Shelob and the second one left him for dead but he wasn't really. And then, what if the second one tries to go on with their mission, but is too sad to go through with it and returns just in time to find….

Sauron: Returns?! To do that he’d have to be a Sentimental amateurish madman! But no matter: he’s still outside the Tower and can’t get past the Watchers.

Cossie: Yes Lord. But what if he has some elvish gadget that can disable the Watchers?

Sauron: Well… oh, which intruder? I’m in danger of getting confused here. So: in your ridiculous scheme we have the Fella redeploying Old Dangerous Ordnance— let’s call him FRODO for short. And we have the Sentimental Amateurish Madman —SAM. Right? So FRODO is in the Tower, and SAM is outside and suddenly has some whizzy gadget that fries the Watchers: is that right?

Well, even if that all happens the Watchers set of that massive alarm bell and my more reliable troops will be on their way!

Cossie: Yes Lord. But what if the first two intruders are also being pursued by an enemy, who perhaps wants something this …er…FRODO has got, and messes up their trail so they can't be tracked . And meanwhile the first two intruders disguised themselves as orcs from your most awesome orc chasms and….

ZAAAAP

Cossie Aieee!

Sauron: A third intruder you say? Great Over-imaginative Laughably Loony, Unlikely Madness! What shall we call this chap? But more importantly, how did he escape Shelob?

Cossie: well, what if?...

Sauron: …No, no, let me guess: he was in league with Shelob to get revenge on this FRODO and then turned traitor….........(laughing): You know what Cossie, you are right!
Cossie: Aieee! What?! I mean, thank you Lord, we live only to serve…

Sauron: I give in! I give in! My defences are impregnable against a FRODO, or against a SAM, but not against both FRODO and SAM if they are also surrounded by treacheries that all cancel each other out, and generally have vast amounts of luck. But my enemies don’t send SAMs on these missions, do they now? You know what kind of person gets sent on dangerous fantasy quests? Übermenschen, Cossie. Übermenschen!
Cossie: If you say so Lord. But isn’t that German for “taxi drivers”?

ZAAAAAP

Cossie: Aieee!

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 25, 6:25pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 25, 6:32pm

Post #23 of 51 (4772 views)
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Ah, I think I see... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If Aragorn really took the time to spy out much/all of Mordor's mountains and potential passes, he might have counted on a sort of "hillbilly" post, where there are 4 guards, who are drunk most of the time, and who never pay attention past midnight (just making that up on the fly as an example, not for debate, so it might have been possible to sneak by rather than fight through. Just speculating.



Ah, I think I see - access would be over a narrow horizontal surface projecting from a wall, cliff, or other surface which is considered unclimable but guarded by those poor hillbilly orcs, just in case. But it is actually scalable by someone like Aragorn who is acomplished in elvish fee soloing mountineering techniques.

A sort of hillbilly elf-ledgy, in fact.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Apr 25, 7:03pm

Post #24 of 51 (4508 views)
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the aieeeees have it [In reply to] Can't Post

In the heart of an author, the ship is always unsinkable and also there must always be an innocuous thermal exhaust vent just the right size for an innocuous iceberg. Why would you want to vent your finite heat into space if you live in a space station? Because the heroes need to get through your defenses someplace, that’s why.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Apr 26, 2:28am

Post #25 of 51 (1756 views)
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There was precedent for Aragorn foiling gates and walls [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember Bree?


Quote
The man stared after the hobbits for a moment, and then he went back to his house. As soon as his back was turned, a dark figure climbed quickly in over the gate and melted into the shadows of the village street.


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