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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 6 2025, 4:54pm
Post #1 of 24
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Frodo on Amon Hen
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Amon Hen: by the time Frodo actually visits, we have already been primed to think is a special space. For example, Aragorn answering Boromir in a discussion about their course, in The Great River:
'Do you not know, Boromir, or do you choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us.'
[my bolds]
When Frodo goes off on his own to think, his feet lead him that way. But it's only when he has put on the Ring to escape from Boromir that he goes to sit on that 'high seat' and something extraordinary happens:
Up he went and sat upon the ancient chair, feeling like a lost child that had clambered upon the throne of mountain-kings.
At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward he looked, and the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward he looked, and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit; a glimmering rainbow played upon the fume. And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-birds whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines.
But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien.
Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed, and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul, and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze.
What follows immediately is an exciting and thought-provoking bit in which Frodo seems nearly to be 'caught' in some way. We can consider that hit later if peiople want to!
But I think that's quite long enough a quote for now, and gives us several possible things to discuss. And, once again, I'd be happy for this to be a wide-ranging and meandering conversation, so feel free to post any thoughts or questions. And please do answer any questions others have posted, because all too likely I can't!
Top-of-my-head things to talk about:
- How is all this working? (Amon Hen is magical; the Ring is involved; Frodo is fated ...) Aragorn will shortly decide to go to the top of the hill himself, but does not believe he sees anything useful - certainly not anything as spectacular as Frodo's visions.
- What literary purpose(s) does it serve for Frodo to have this episode?
- It seems to me that what happens to Frodo seems like Denethor at high speed - searching for information he is drawn to see The Eye. 'All hope left him' and he is then nearly captured (in a further section of the text, which we can get to if people wish.)
And there's one possible areas of discussion I'd like to expand upon a little: Does what Frodo sees seem reliable? Are there, I wonder, parallels with Palantirs and Galadriel's mirror in which supernatural information-gathering is beset with problems about understanding what you see. Gandalf tells us (re Denethor) that although the palantirs cannot lie, they can be got to show a very biased selection of material (something lie propaganda). We read that Saruman is also being manipulated via his palantir. When there is not the hazard of Sauron's manipulation or propaganda, Galadriel warns of her mirror that:
'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?'
[and later, to Sam, who has been distressed by visions of trouble in the Shire]
'Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.'
I rather like the idea that these supernatural ways of seeing are subject to something like 'artefact' (in the scientific use of the word "something that is seen in a scientific experiment or study that does not exist naturally, but has been caused by the way the experiment or study is done" - Cambridge Dictionary ) Or, one might say, the perils of seeing what you want to see (or fear might be true) rather than what is there.
Is Frodo's Amon Hen vision exempt from such problems, I wonder? Dare I ask..'why'?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 6 2025, 9:23pm
Post #2 of 24
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Where to start?
First thought: Amon Hen was built during the glory days of Gondor's power, and Gondor was never a bad place enamored of Sauron and his Dark Arts, but doesn't this vision feel harsh at best and borderline sinister? The harshness comes from words like "Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth" which has a cumulative effect with Orthanc: "like a black spike". Is the Ring polluting and twisting Frodo's vision on what should be a Valar-friendly, White Magic site? And I think any answer is tied to Aragorn's disappointing experience of no vision at all even as Elendil's heir. This isn't a hangout of Sauron's that he's had time to corrupt like Minas Ithil, so why does it seem corrupted??
2nd thought: sort of obligatory to ask (and then we can skip it): what would Frodo have heard on the Hill of Hearing: the sounds of war and war preparation? Or nothing?
3rd thought: how literal is the Hill of Seeing? Aragorn hoped for "a sign" with a maybe, not the palantir view that Frodo had, and are we as readers maybe tempted to overstate the function of Amon Hen due to Frodo's experience when maybe it never before functioned this way. Did Gandalf the White trigger this view for Frodo for some reason similar to Galadriel's with her Mirror, and he had no power leftover to help Aragorn after fighting off Sauron's grab at Frodo?
for I was heavy with thought, and weary after my struggle with the Eye of Mordor;
Was the vision entirely triggered by the Ring which somehow saw Amon Hen as a nexus to Sauron?
[Gandalf to Frodo in Bag End:] "The Ring was trying to get back to its master." Was it maybe because Amon Hen "remembered" Gondor's power and served as a powerful place that could amplify the Ring's desire to be found again by Sauron?
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 7 2025, 8:54am
Post #3 of 24
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This may be a case where it is helpful to contrast Tolkien's work with Peter Jackson's movie adaptation. The movie has Frodo hide on Amon Hen, but misses out book-Frodo's Middle-earth at War montage. Instead we skip to the material just where my quotation stops: Frodo's vision of Barad-dur.
One practical reason why Jackson and his team may have skipped the Middle-earth at War montage could of course have been the sheer work needed to film all those fragmenatary scenes. But I also think that the movie-makers were trying to close off their first episode with an heroic focus on Aragorn: movie-Aragorn decisively rejects the Ring, and is therefore confident enough to go for the throne of Gondor. Problems that book-Aragorn never seems to have had. But book-Aragorn doesn't take part in an heroic rearguard action to allow Frodo's escape: Tolkien gives us a situation that is far more confused, and book-Aragorn misses the fighting completely. That's partly because he's delayed by his quick and disapointing trip to Amon Hen.
Anyway: my purpose in bringing up the Jackson movie is not to analyse it in detail (wrong board for that) but to suggest that sometimes it is helpful to consider Jackson (or another adaptation) side by side with Tolkien to see what is missing, added, or changed and consider how that leads to a different effect. That can be a way into understanding what Tolkien was up to in his story, which is the focus of discussion on this board, just as each major adaptation is the focus on its own board.
I realise with a smile - look, I'm smiling  - that what I'm proposing is like a biologist studying mutants: if your fruit fly or mouse or plant or whatever has lost or gained some specific thing, how does its life end up different?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Apr 7 2025, 4:36pm
Post #4 of 24
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My impression of things was always fairly straightforward: that Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw held their respective magical properties for anybody who made the climb and sat, whether that was the work of Númenóreans or had simply been attributes of those hills since the landscape was first formed. It doesn’t seem that the power lent by Amon Hen is strictly a matter of line of sight, since Frodo is able to see so very far—although he is of course on a hill, and line of sight wouldn’t be limited to the thirteen miles or whatever it is at sea level. But either way, when he sees the orcs of the Misty Mountains and the scurrying Beornings and all, I take this as more or less literal vision, magically assisted with whatever parameters.
But the picture is complicated because he is also wearing the Ring, and that we know has the property of rendering him more visible to the Nazgûl and perhaps to Sauron too. Putting it on also seems to carry at least a risk, each time, of catching Sauron’s attention, as if he can feel that someone somewhere is activating the Ring (would he have been aware this all through Gollum’s centuries skulking under Goblin Town?), even if he doesn’t usually have much of a sense of where (or the jig would have been up before Frodo was long in Mordor).
One power in operation is Sauron’s unbreakable personal connection to his Ring. But has it not also always been true that he has the master stone of Osgiliath on his bedside table as well? All these times Frodo perceives (and Gollum too I think) the potency of Sauron’s searching attention, roving forcibly over the landscape like the shadow of a cloud, is the old boy not presumably staring into his palantír, whether or not he had some innate clairvoyant capacity of his own?
So there’s a sort of three-body problem here, a complex interaction of three supernatural powers: the power of Amon Hen, the power of a palantír, and the malevolent force of Sauron and his Ring. And then, of course, into the mix jumps a minor divinity who happens to be hovering in a limbo state between life and death on the upper slopes of one of those Misty Mountains. Does Gandalf see anything? He is on the Great Ring network, and so is at whiles aware of the pressure of Sauron’s will, searching like a dog’s tongue against firm-shut lips, just like Galadriel, whose veiling of her hidden realm requires constant work in resisting him (and not that anyone directly says so, but we may imagine Elrond has a similar experience up north). Gandalf, at any rate, needn’t exactly see Frodo or Sauron to be aware that there’s a bit of cat and mouse going on between them. Is it specifically his possession of a Great Ring that gets him accidentally invited to the classified chat, here? Or would his usual native power, his divine nature and current out-of-body state, suffice for that anyway?
I am fascinated by your point that all means of clairvoyance we’ve seen thus far come with warnings on the tin about meaning and reliability. Is this structurally necessary, such that it must needs apply to Amon Hen as well? Or is Amon Hen somehow more mechanical and innocent of any concern with “meaning”?
I’ll have to come back to any thought about the literary purpose of the episode. I’d quite forgotten that you’d asked—but we wonders, yes, we wonders.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Apr 7 2025, 4:41pm
Post #5 of 24
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I just said my understanding of this scene was straightforward and went on to describe something not at all straightforward. Low on self-awareness, I may be. But it felt straightforward.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Apr 7 2025, 7:20pm
Post #6 of 24
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Some random thoughts...
#1:
Amon Hen reminds me of the story of Húrin and Morgoth and also how Manwë can supposedly see all the world. It's a mystery who could have built such a powerful magic item/place. I don't think the Men of Númenor is the real answer here. They wouldn't have had the know-how, and Amon Hen is also placed in a very inconvenient strategic location that makes no sense as a deliberate choice by the Númenoreans. The Númenoreans could have built or repaired the chair and the stone steps, maybe.
The general wider area is weird too. It makes me think that an ancient high-magic civilization could have been responsible for all the weird stuff such as Amon Hen and Mirrormere. Could the ancient Almaren have been there?
#2:
There is a cloud over Moria. The cloudiness of Cloudyhead appears to be a common if not constant occurrence. We are never told what exactly causes the cloud. Volcanism? Smoke from underground forges? The Misty Mountains shouldn't be naturally volcanic, so perhaps the Dwarves having delved too deep could have something to do with it.
#3:
Rainbow, the Christian symbol of hope, lies over the deadly falls of Rauros. I wonder what Tolkien is meaning with this? Minas Tirith is also to the South, which could possibly be relevant. Perhaps Tolkien is conveying that the path to Minas Tirith feels like a pleasant idea but would ultimately result in a disaster.
There is also a minor parallel passage that mentions the rainbows over Nimrodel's waterfalls (not seen by the characters), which makes me wonder if there might have been some confusion and Anduin's name used to be Nimrodel in the very ancient times, so ancient that even the Elves of Mirkwood don't really remember it. Rauros sounds like it would have been a worthier topic for songs than the tiny waterfalls of a little stream like Nimrodel, but maybe that's my non-Elf mindset talking.
#4:
I don't think I've ever said it before, but Angband and Moria have some weird similarities (such as being located beneath a triple peak) despite ostensibly having nothing to do with each other.
But the weirdest of all is this relation:
From The Silmarillion:
"Who has beheld the Dark King in the North? Those who seek the dominion of Middle-earth are the Eldar. Greedy for wealth they have delved in the earth for its secrets and have stirred to wrath the things that dwell beneath it, as they have ever done and ever shall."
These words making the emergence of monsters from Angband the fault of the Elves are reminiscent of the Dwarves supposedly having delved "too greedily and too deep" but were said in Beleriand by a suspicious character who was quite possibly Sauron in disguise - long before the emergence of the Balrog and the fall of Moria. I don't quite know what to make of it. I suppose a likely conclusion would be that Sauron knows far more about underground beings and the potential threats posed by them than Gandalf the White would let the reader believe.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 7 2025, 7:43pm
Post #7 of 24
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Your point about the rainbow and the ensuing explicit reference to hope residing in Minas Tirith, a city Frodo would never see before the Ring was destroyed, made me think of how Sauron is The Hope-Killer: using this vision (it seems) to show Frodo hope in Minas Tirith, then showing him the far greater forces at Sauron's disposal. He used the palantir to beat the hope out of Denethor, even tricking him into thinking the genuinely hopeful fleet from the south was full of enemies and not his own armies. And the Nazgul flew over Minas Tirith to make all hope wane with their demonic cries, softening it up for defeat. To give the devil his due, Sauron knew how to manipulate.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 8 2025, 6:23pm
Post #8 of 24
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts!
I'd always assumed that Frodo's experience is somehow unique both to where he is and something about the circumstances. But that's based just on my reading, and on prior discussion here. So I've enjoyed reading people explore other ideas.
Could what Frodo sees be only physics? Like everyone else, I doubt that. It seems that the distance you can theoretically see on Earth from a high place can be calculated thus:
To compute the horizon distance (D), multiply 1.22459 by the square root of the observer’s height (h) in meters. This formula is essential in navigation, surveying, and Earth curvature calculations to estimate how far the visible horizon extends from a given height. Does that help is? Well not a lot, probably. You have to decide for yourself how high the seat on Amon Hen is. Now possibly someone can show that some of the things Frodo sees could not be seen from any peak other than one that would require him to carry oxygen (or some other issue that would contradict the text or be absurd) . But the formula also depends on the size of the Earth, and so the assumption is that Middle-earth is the same size. And anyway, I doubt Tolkien was sitting at his desk writing this passage and thinking 'tee hee, an excellent physics problem for the Interested Reader'.
I think that much better objections to it being 'just physics' are (as Silvered-glass points out) its a strange location to put a watchtower that could have been put on any high place. Amon Lhaw, the Hill of Hearing, would be even more eccentrically placed - a listening post next to a loud waterfall!
But I have another reason for thinking Frodo isn't just seeing what anyone could see (because of 'just physics' or because Amon Hen is a magical machine with a mechanism that consistently works that way). And the same thing prevents me from thinking it's just Tolkien's artistic licence exaggerating the viewing distance. The reason is that Aragorn's experience is different.
And that in itself might be considered interesting. When we did a readthrough of Unfinished Tales, I led the discussion on The Palantiri. In my introduction I noted:
We are told that a palantir-user’s success is partly determined by their right of use of the device: Kings of Gondor and their designated assigns and successors (such as the Stewards) do better, because in some way the stones sense that they are rightful users. This, for example, helps explain how Aragorn can wrest control of the Orthanc stone from Sauron, even though Aragorn is presumably not a match for Sauron in other areas.
Palantiri starter 3: Palantirs, the Missing Manual - powers, limitations, and plot damage, NoWizardme, 2014
So, if Amon Hen is a magical machine whose consistent mechanism we can speculate upon, it seems that it does not have this palantir property of recognising Aragorn as a rightful user. Or at least we observe that Frodo sees a lot, Aragorn doesn't see much.
Frodo's situation is, as Uncle I has said, complicated. Complicated by him wearing the Ring, so that one could argue that what he sees is dictated by the Ring (or by Sauron). I notice Frodo has this panaorama of Middle-earth before he is 'drawn to' Mordor and Sauron becomes aware of him. That might suggest that some other power is assisting him before that. But this is a weak argument - when Frodo sees Barad Dur he becomes aware that Sauron has become aware. It could be argued that Frodo has been being manipulated before that. Offering hope and then beating it down does indeed sound a Sauronic passtime.
But yet again, one could argue that Frodo is meant to see these things, but not by Sauron. I think that is part of the answer, because the effect of the whole thing (the panopramic vision and then the tussle with Sauron that we haven't got to yet) on Frodo is:
He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree. Frodo rose to his feet. A great weariness was on him, but his will was firm and his heart lighter. He spoke aloud to himself. ‘I will do now what I must,’ he said.
So whatever mechanism and participants are involved in what happens to Frodo, I think the effect of the experience is to reinforce his sense of mission.
In that old UT Readthrough/ palantiri discussion, I also just found this (in reaction to a post by CuriousG comparing Galadriel's mirror with the palantiri):
That's a great way of putting it. The hobbits seem to get some insight and wisdom from their (rather dreamlike) experiences with the Mirror, rather trying to get actionable factual information. It's the factual information search which so readily goes wrong with the palantiri, And, of course, they have Lady G to talk Sam out of wanting to rush back to the Shire. It makes me think that Lady G understands the limitations of her device (if 'device' is the right word) instead of being over-awed by it and over-estimating its abilities, like the palantir users and their hand-me-down tech.
"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves." NoWizardme, 2014 Maybe Frodo gains from his vision here on Amon Hen because he takes it as an insight of where he fits into things, rather than how he can exploit them. Or as CuriousG put it:
[Galadriel] took Frodo to look in it because she thought he would benefit from it, and though seeing the Eye was scary to him, he also saw the bigger picture that he was a part of, and I think he needed that psychological boost after losing his friend and protector in Moria. She also told Frodo that his perception was keener as a result of that experience, enabling him to perceive more about her than others that get the capital "Wise" title. He needed that extra perception in his encounters with both Gollum and Faramir, so it was all to the good. And while Sam was upset by his vision, it ultimately galvanized his determination to continue the quest, so again, no harm done.
Palantiri vs Mirrors, CuriousG 2014
Since I'm having a rummage in that palantiri discussion now, I'd also like to share the passage of criticism on which I base my idea that visions are perilous in Middle-earth. That's the background to me wondering whether Amon Hen visions have similar hazards:
I’ve posted a separate discussion-starter (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=730202#730202 ) about the story-breaking and other technical issues about the palantiri. The technical limitations of the devices do, however, seem to be nothing compared with the problem arising from interpreting what is seen. Prof Tom Shippey (in The Road To Middle-earth) notes that Palantirs in LOTR consistently lead their users to draw the wrong conclusion:
Quote
[The palantiri] are used four times in Tolkien’s work, with a very consistent pattern. The first occasion is when Pippin picks up the palantir thrown from Orthanc by Grima, and later sneaks a look at it when Gandalf is asleep. In the stone, he sees Sauron, and Sauron sees him. But though Sauron sees Pippin, he draws from this a wrong conclusion, namely that Pippin is the Ring-bearer, and has been captured by Saruman, who now has the Ring. The next day Aragorn, who has been given the stone by Gandalf, deliberately shows himself in it to Sauron, and once again Sauron draws the wrong conclusion: namely that Aragorn has overpowered Saruman and that he is now the owner of the Ring. It is fear of this new power arising which makes Sauron launch his premature attack, and Gandalf indeed realises that this was all along Aragorn’s intention. Gandalf further surmises that it was the palantir which was Saruman’s downfall. As he looked in it, he saw only what Sauron allowed him to see, and once more drew the wrong conclusion, losing heart and deciding that resistance would be futile. Both Sauron and Saruman have allowed what they see in the Stones to guide their decisions, and what they have seen is true; but they have seen only fractions of the truth.
Prof Tom Shippey, The Road To Middle-earth 3e Appendix C
Prof Shippey goes on to consider Denethor’s use of the palantir, in a passage which is too long to quote and which I shall therefore summarize. Prof Shippey notes that on the 13 March, Faramir returns to base wounded, after Denethor’s tactical error in sending him out to defend Osgiliath. Denethor retires to his chamber, there is a flickering light, and when Denethor returns his face is ‘grey, more deathlike than his son’s’. Presumably he’s been at that palantir again! Later, as part of his despairing, suicidal speech, he tells Gandalf that he (Denethor) has seen the Black Fleet approaching, making it look like Minas Tirith will fall: there of course once more, he has drawn the wrong conclusion, because the Black Fleet will eventually bring Aragorn and his reinforcements to Minas Tirith, not the corsairs. But it appears that this is not all he’s seen: , looking at the timelines (as you can do too, using TORN.net’s handy calendar: http://www.theonering.net/...th-history-calendar/ which deserves a mention here! ), Prof Shippey argues that what has rattled Denethor so is another event of March 13th: he has seen Frodo’s captured by the orcs. Already knowing, from Faramir, that Frodo had the Ring, Denethor yet again draws the wrong conclusion, and assumes Sauron now has the Ring, and that further resistance is useless.
[Must now stop writing “ the wrong conclusion” in italics, fun though it is...]
So much for the dangers of speculation: as Prof Shippy comments “Speculating in the old sense (looking into crystal balls) is inevitably disastrous in Tolkien’s fictional world.”
Palantiri starter 4: The dangers of speculation, 2014
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 8 2025, 7:00pm
Post #9 of 24
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Some musing...
Writing that post about the mechanism of Frodo's vision, I of course mentioned that speculation about magical machines tends to assume that the work consistently. Otherwise, deductions and inferences can't be made.
And there certainly is a lot of Fantasy in which magic has consistent mechanisms:
...hard magic. This is the side where the authors explicitly describes the rules of magic. This is done so that the reader can have the fun of feeling like they themselves are part of the magic, and so that the author can show clever twists and turns in the way the magic works. The magic itself is a character, and by showing off its laws and rules, the author is able to provide twists, worldbuilding, and characterization. If the reader understands how the magic works, then you can use the magic (or, rather, the characters using the magic) to solve problems. In this case, it’s not the magic mystically making everything better. Instead, it’s the characters’ wit and experience that solves the problems. Magic becomes another tool—and, like any other tool, its careful application can enhance the character and the plot. Sanderson's First Law
But Tolkien does not normally do that. He's more likely to write...
...books where the magic is included in order to establish a sense of wonder and give the setting a fantastical feel. Books that focus on this use of magic tend to want to indicate that men are a small, small part of the eternal and mystical workings of the universe. This gives the reader a sense of tension as they’re never certain what dangers—or wonders—the characters will encounter. Indeed, the characters themselves never truly know what can happen and what can’t.
I would argue that Tolkien himself is on this side of the continuum. In his books, you rarely understand the capabilities of Wizards and their ilk. You, instead, spend your time identifying with the hobbits, who feel that they’ve been thrown into something much larger, and more dangerous, than themselves. By holding back laws and rules of magic, Tolkien makes us feel that this world is vast, and that there are unimaginable powers surging and moving beyond our sight.
(ibid)
Discussing this with someone once, we came up with the metaphor of a vending machine: those things where you insert coins and a semi-visible mechanism dispenses a packet of crisps, or a chocolate bar or a drink or whatever....or doesn't.
If you're venting because of a lack of vending, then I suppose a normal reaction is to think that something perfectly intelligible and mechanical has gone wrong - the machine has run out of what you asked for, or the chocolate bar has fallen onto the floor of the machine rather than into the chute from which you can pick it up. In some models, you could see that blasted item, not correctly vended, but you'd be unable to do anything about it.
'But what if it works like prayer?' she asked.
Now I'm the last person to tell anyone how prayer works, if indeed it does (such a subject would not be in scope for this board, anyway). But I think I did understand the idea I was being presented with, relevant to Fantasy fiction. "You insert your coin, and you don't get your can of drink. So you curse and bang on the machine, but are forced to give up and go away. And you may not discover it wasn't about you getting or not getting a drink. It will turn out that someone who will turn up next needed a pound coin out of the coin return; or that you needed not to be at your desk for those few minutes...it''s about what someone needs, but not necessarily you."
I'd apply that to Frodo and later to Aragorn on Amon Hen as follows (it does not rely on the ideas that Frodo has done any actual praying):
I think they both have come there to seek insight. Aragorn has been looking to do that. Before his flight from Boromir, Frodo is described as "Wandering aimlesly at first in the wood, Frodo found that his feet were leading him up towards the slops of the hill". Possibly (though not conclusively) he is unconciously going there; or of course being guided there.
I wonder whether Frodo needs the insight he gets (or gets the insight he needs)?
And whether Aragorn needs to draw a blank, and be pushed back upon his own judgement?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 8 2025, 7:15pm)
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Apr 8 2025, 8:22pm
Post #10 of 24
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I never stop being surprised by what I haven’t perceived, or internalized. Have I ever really slowed down to read the first paragraphs of Book III?
Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world seemed dim and remote. He turned from North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth. I had it in my head that Aragorn sees what he sees, probably something comparable to Frodo’s fairly scattershot overview of a landscape bustling with people here and there, but gets cut off by the local commotion. But here it is in black and white—
He ... saw nothing save the distant hills Nothing. It is baldly stated that he did not. Can I stretch that so far as to read that he saw nothing beyond what you’d expect, given where he is and all?
He saw nothing No. I cannot. NoWiz is correct, and the bestest heir of Elendil since pretty much Elendil sat on Amon Hen (side note, if it’s a seat, how does he look from North again to North? Does it spin like a barstool?) and got nothing out of it.
nothing This makes no sense to me. So much no sense. I’m missing something. NOT TO MENTION, to add insult to injury, the very next thing that happens is that the hero on the hill, after seeing nothing, starts hearing things, despite this being the seeing hill not the hearing hill, and instead of looking to see what the racket is about from the magic vision seat, he gets up and runs down the mountain so he can arrive at Boromir’s bedside still completely uninformed about the several very important things that have just happened to his Fellowship.
Now, all of this comes at a point in the story that I love among other things precisely because it’s the tail end of a long string of bad decisions by Aragorn, and it humanizes him in a way that I think is needful for the reader; it helps to keep him on a knowable, relatable human scale, or at least enough that he has one foot in such a scale. And maybe the plot necessity of his running to find Boromir dying and all the hobbits vanished is simply more important than it would be for him to get much use out of Amon Hen, and certainly worth more to the author than the simple mechanical consistency of (what should be) his ability to rapidly scan the whereabouts of his entire adventure team from exactly where he’s sitting.
But maybe there is some other rule or mechanism at work in the professor’s scheme that I simply haven’t perceived, and still don’t. Why does Aragorn see nothing? Was he asking the wrong question? Was the hill tired after the sudden, unusual workout Frodo put it through? Was there something about Aragorn’s nature or Aragorn’s present state that precluded his more productive use of the power of Amon Hen?
I got nothing.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 8 2025, 8:37pm
Post #11 of 24
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It does feel like being punched in the face
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It wasn't long ago in the story that the Argonath approach brought out some royal Heir of Elendil aura in Aragorn, because he's entitled to it, just as he's entitled to his ancestral sword and later the palantir plus a kingdom. He even inherits safe passage and command over the Dead! So, why did the vending machine break on Amon Hen when he put his coins in??
I like the conclusion Wiz draws: both men get what they need from Amon Hen: resolution for Frodo, and a sort of "Try your call later; go save your friends now" message for Aragorn.
And maybe Tolkien was also reinforcing his concept of magic, reminding readers that his anti-industrial world is NOT a machine where you push the ON button for the magic machine and always get the same results, so sorry, Aragorn doesn't get the vision we feel he's entitled to, and I'm very disappointed myself as a reader, but there's satisfaction in knowing that M-earth defies logic and expectations.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 8 2025, 8:47pm
Post #12 of 24
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The world reaches out to Frodo
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especially the longer the quest goes on. I think Tolkien the writer was smart enough to know that readers would compare Aragorn and Frodo's experiences and find it odd that Aragorn doesn't get a vision as the Heir of Isildur on his own rightful territory, so besides what I said to Uncle, I wonder if I should lean in more of the kind of mystical messages that come to Frodo and NOT to Aragorn:
- seeing the flower crown on the statue king's head at the Crossroads, and taking much-needed inspiration from it
- Sam seeing the star, gaining hope
- that final message to both Frodo and Sam to climb Mt Doom in a hurry, because Aragorn's army needed them to, not because Sauron's forces were onto them
- spotting Gollum pursuing them after leaving Moria when no one else (except Aragorn) seemed to
- all the way back to "Frodo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker"
- his inspiration in Rivendell at the end of the Council, which might have been supernatural, and might have been entirely personal as he learned more about himself
- being singled out at Galadriel's Mirror to see the big picture he was involved in, whereas Sam only saw the Shire
Was this the Valar, or Illuvatar, or Fate reaching out to Frodo on Amon Hen? Was it the Ring amplifying the local magic? If so, how did Gandalf enter the chat? Is Middle-earth just a mystical place where all kinds of unexpected things can happen to defy our stubborn logic?
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 12:22pm
Post #13 of 24
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Clop, Clop, Trotter to the rescue (or perhaps not)
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In an early draft, where Aragorn had not yet appeared as a character, some of his role was give to an orthotics-wearing Adventure-hobbit called Trotter.
Trotter does climb to Amon Hen like Aragorn does, and does have visions. But Tolkien's editorial note to his draft goes
The second vision on Amon Hen is inartistic. Let Trotter be stopped by noise of orcs, and let him see nothing.
Treason of Isengard, p380
It's one of the points where it might have been more helpful to scholars and fans had Tolkien be less effective at self-editing. A correspondence with his editor about the problems with The second vision on Amon Hen could be quite interesting from our point of view.
As it is, 'inartistic' could over anything from Tolkien feeling the second vision was too much a drag on the pace of the story; or that it is better storytelling to make Trotter/Aragorn work the situation out from tracking clues, or deciding that Amon Hen ought not to give out visions to All and Sundry (the latter group being the ones who go down the North slope and then cut round to get back up from the South and have another go).
Anywayz, someone could argue that if Amon Hen is going to give Trotter a vision, and then it is more artistic for that process to be interrupted, then the same still aplies when Trotter has become Aragorn. That is, it all couls have worked if given a proper try under teh right circumstanes.
And someone else could argue that Aragorn is a very different character to Trotter, and Tolkien might have had other reasons for withholding a vision from the heir of Elendil.
It's probably not an argument that we have any way to settle.
I do agree with:
Now, all of this comes at a point in the story that I love among other things precisely because it’s the tail end of a long string of bad decisions by Aragorn, and it humanizes him in a way that I think is needful for the reader; it helps to keep him on a knowable, relatable human scale, or at least enough that he has one foot in such a scale. And maybe the plot necessity of his running to find Boromir dying and all the hobbits vanished is simply more important than it would be for him to get much use out of Amon Hen, and certainly worth more to the author than the simple mechanical consistency of (what should be) his ability to rapidly scan the whereabouts of his entire adventure team from exactly where he’s sitting.
I can't think of any vision on Amon Hen that would work as well as making Aragornr decision to go there another apparent mistake he's kicking himself for later.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 1:17pm
Post #14 of 24
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I like that idea!
I agree it is pretty clear (from Quest of Erebor explicitly, to back up hints in the text) that the effect Tolkien wanted in LOTR was of Powers helping Frodo along. Only helping subtly mind, like a mere nudge of the table from time to time.
It's a tricky area to study because of course there is a hidden Power in any Tale (Tales being highly artificial arrangements in which the storyteller gets what they want to happen, but without that becoming jarringly or annoyingly obvious to teh audience).
I wonder whether we could say that Tolkien is using euconsistency as well as eucatastrophy? Eucatastrophy - a sudden unlooked for change for the better - is a tricky thing to pull off well, because done badly it looks all deus ex machina. Euconsistency - when the fantasy mechanisms aren't as mechanical or predictable as a modern audience might suppose - likewise ought to be a challenge to pull off, because done badly it would look like the author has forgotten how their own Phlebotinum is supposed to work.
It might be worth saying these are just musings - it would be very hard to prove that Middle-earth does or doesn't behave consistently, given how little we know about its workings. Probably no firm conclusion could be reached about that, short of Tolkien explaining hs modus. But he tended to dislike doing that....
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 9 2025, 1:30pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 2:14pm
Post #15 of 24
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So my first reaction to "inartistic" was that "Aragorn sought a vision in the high place, but lo! There was graffiti from scallies, and graffiti from punks, and graffiti from Taylor Swifties, and vulgar drawings by orcses, and even his grim and mighty gaze could not pierce the chaotic spray paint."
But upon more sober reflection, I was reminded of a discussion a million years ago by Telain about the ethics of creativity re: Aule creating the dwarves in The Silmarillion, and it's worth following the thread from there.
- Eru didn't object to the dwarves' creation but to their lack of agency, and when they showed they had some, he signed off on them
- Elrond says in the Council that the makers of the Three Rings "did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing,"
- Galadriel explains that she can command the Mirror to show things someone wants to see, but (seeing the pattern yet?) it's much better to give the Mirror agency and allow it the freedom to conjure up visions on its own
- Tolkien in that letter you quoted about Bombadil refers to the dichotomy of "moderated freedom with consent against compulsion"
Leaving me to think that Amon Hen was "created" to some degree by Gondor, and such things are best left to their own devices rather than commanded and compelled to ("consistently" shall we say) do what the vending machine user wants and pays for. Our 2025 cognitive bias favors reliable mechanisms under our control in The Industrial Age, but Tolkien favors the semi-chaotic spirit of nature in his artistry, so Amon Hen giveth to Frodo but giveth not to Aragorn.
As you say, we can never prove anything for sure. And it's equally possible that he found it inartistic to have Aragorn have a vision when the narrative is picking up speed and can't afford to get bogged down in visions and portents and what-not. Frodo & Sam are departing, the others are fighting orcs, Merry & Pippin are captured, and Boromir is dead--and Aragorn is watching televsion?!?!?!?
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Apr 9 2025, 2:15pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 3:34pm
Post #16 of 24
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Well, if one of the Misty Mountains has a bad attitude to two-legged travellers maybe it is no stretch to feel that Amon Hen is sorta sentient and ought to be allowed its free will. Or can't be treated as a mere machine at least.
Meanwhile, on the other side of Rauros, it's no good trying to get Amon Lhaw to do what you want, apparently.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 9 2025, 3:35pm)
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Apr 9 2025, 5:40pm
Post #17 of 24
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I fought the Lhaw and the Lhaw won
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I don’t know why this never occurred to me before, but, if nobody has even set foot atop Tol Brandir, doesn’t that just mean that nobody knows which of the remaining senses suddenly becomes a long-range instrument from there?
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 7:18pm
Post #18 of 24
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That's why everyone denies going there and no stories are told openly, but I found one with a brown paper wrapper that I can pass around.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 8:48pm
Post #19 of 24
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Hammond & Scull in their Reader's Companion point out that some of the things Frodo sees don't appear to things that are happening on February 26th, the day when Frodo is on Amon Hen.
So maybe Tolkien adjusted his timelines during writing but forgot to adjust it here (potentially work-outable from HoME).
Or, maybe Amon Hen can show some or all of the Mirror's trio - things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 9 2025, 9:33pm
Post #20 of 24
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I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to visions
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I suppose I am with dreams too. I wouldn't expect Frodo's vision to line up with any timeline. I expect visions to be mystical, rather chaotic, even out of order. And in his case, I never thought it was the literal events he saw that were important, just that the world was moving to war, and he alone (with Sam and Gollum) could bring peace via his quest. I mean, even if he saw only commercials and got that message, the vision would have succeeded.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Apr 10 2025, 7:14am
Post #21 of 24
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Maybe he used the wrong change!
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Or was it the right time for him to reveal or to give more hints about himself to Sauron
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Apr 10 2025, 7:22am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Apr 10 2025, 7:27am
Post #23 of 24
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More Capital Letters In This Pasage Than Normal. Even for Tolkien!
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 10 2025, 6:32pm
Post #24 of 24
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I agree. I think the reason Hammond & Scull raise this item (Frodo appears to see things that aren't exactly contemporaneous with his trip to Amon Hen) is part of ruling out that this is 'just physics' (or just physics exaggerated). I suppose it also poses a problem for any theories along the lines that Amon Hen is like a magical telescope - extending how far one can see, but only showing things happening now.
But I suppose Frodo does see 'what is happening now' in a looser sense. Most of the things Frodo sees look like they are part of the current military situation of which he is a part.
That seems to contrast with his (and Sam's) visions in the Mirror of Galadriel or Frodo's dreams at Tom Bombadil's house. Those seem to cover past and future events as well as reasonably present ones.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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