Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Elrond's squirrel

noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 18 2025, 8:09pm

Post #1 of 15 (32316 views)
Shortcut
Elrond's squirrel Can't Post


Quote

“Time was when a squirrel could go from tree to tree from what is now the Shire to Dunland west of Isengard. In those lands I journeyed once, and many things wild and strange I knew.”

Elrond speaking, Council of Elrond


I liked that image of the squirrel and supposed that it was one of Tolkien's originals...

...until I read:


Quote
“I had once read somewhere that in King John’s reign a squirrel could travel from the Severn to the Humber without touching ground”

— Between the Woods and the Water: On Foot to Constantinople from the Hook of Holland: The Middle Danube to the Iron Gates by Patrick Leigh Fermor 1986

[Although published in the 1980s, the book records a journey Fermor made in 1934. The book was written after Fermor's notebooks of the trip were unexpectedly returned to him after many years in which he thought they were lost.]


Well it doesn't sound like Fermor is quoting Tolkien, and if this idea is taken from Fermor's 1934 notebooks then of course he couldn't be.

So it looked like there was some earlier source. And then I read...


Quote
“The idea that Britain's primeval residents were restricted to naturally open areas within an otherwise hostile forest was cemented by Sir Cyril Fox, one of England's foremost archaeologists of the twentieth century, in his 1932 work, The Personality of Britain.

Fox conceived of the extent of Britain's ancient forests in squirrel miles. The story of this apocryphal rodent, crossing vast distances through the treetops without ever touching the ground, has been around for centuries, although I have never been able to uncover the true origins of the phrase. The squirrel has scurried across the skylines of everywhere from the Iberian Peninsula to the Eastern United States. At some point, it made the leap into the axioms of British history, such that, in 1918, the architect Maurice B. Adams could claim that, during the Middle Ages, open country was unknown, and England was so densely wooded that it was said a squirrel could traverse the kingdom without touching the ground. In the conclusion to The Personality of Britain, Fox took a squirrel's-eye view of the landscape at the dawn of the Iron Age, around 2,500 years ago.

The forest at this time ‘was in a sense unbroken, for without emerging from its canopy a squirrel could traverse the country from end to end’, he wrote, echoing the old cliché. But Fox's squirrel would have needed to do some route planning to achieve this feat. His treetop journey would have been punctuated by patches of open land, where he may have observed humans milking cows and tending crops. It was in these forest-free stretches, according to Fox, that the civilisation of Britain truly began.

Nature’s Ghosts, by Sophie Yeo, Harper North 2024


More recent research has pushed back the time when the squirrel would already have had quite a challenge - due to substantial clearings made by large animals, including humans. And an interesting theme of Sophie Yeo's book, I thought, was the conflicting ideas people have of what the prelapsarian countryside was like, when that's something they wish to restore.

But I also wonder whether other forum members have seen this idea of 'squirrel miles' (as Yeo puts it) in other books?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 18 2025, 8:18pm

Post #2 of 15 (32227 views)
Shortcut
Beware of tall tales from old-timers [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember when a squirrel could travel from London to Paris without ever leaving the trees.


Eldy
Dor-Lomin


Mar 19 2025, 12:18am

Post #3 of 15 (29900 views)
Shortcut
How interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't know, or had forgotten, that the concept of squirrel miles had been around for so long, though I had of course heard of the (supposedly?) unbroken primeval forests of England. When I was younger I heard similar things said about the mid-Atlantic United States, where I'm from, though I don't know how far back one would have to go for that to be true, nor do I recall hearing it described in terms of squirrel travel.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Mar 26 2025, 7:05pm

Post #4 of 15 (20941 views)
Shortcut
they say Americans will use anything but the metric system [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anybody have a conversion table for flying squirrel miles?


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 26 2025, 7:23pm

Post #5 of 15 (20857 views)
Shortcut
I'd have thought that the problem with flying squirrel miles [In reply to] Can't Post

...would be that you get a seat next to a nut.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Eldy
Dor-Lomin


Mar 27 2025, 7:56pm

Post #6 of 15 (19676 views)
Shortcut
*giggles* [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to mention sitting next to someone bright-eyed and bushy-tailed on a red-eye flight.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 28 2025, 7:00pm

Post #7 of 15 (19119 views)
Shortcut
That would be vexing [In reply to] Can't Post

I gave up flying Mordor Airways because it seemed like all the flights were on the Red Eye.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 28 2025, 7:05pm

Post #8 of 15 (19082 views)
Shortcut
Maybe we need some more Middle-earthy measurements [In reply to] Can't Post

How many ent strides to the mile, or Leaps of Beren.
Or, if all nine members of the Fellowship were laid end to end, would we have a Tolkien--Dorothy Parker mashup?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 30 2025, 2:17am

Post #9 of 15 (18913 views)
Shortcut
Next you can explain how many fortnights make up a league // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lissuin
Doriath


Mar 30 2025, 7:59pm

Post #10 of 15 (18773 views)
Shortcut
How many fort Knights make up A-League you ask, CuriousG? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Australia created A-League in April 2004. It succeeded the NSL, the Australian National Soccer League. Eight teams were to be part of the new national competition, with 7 teams from Australia plus one team from New Zealand, the New Zealand Knights Football Club.

From 2004-2007, A-League consisted of 48 doughty New Zealand Knights plus the 7 Australian teams.

Sadly, today no Knights are to be found in A-League. New Zealand Knights Football Club (formed from the Football Kingz Football Club in 2004) were the only professional association football club in New Zealand before they became defunct in 2007. They were replaced by Wellington Phoenix.

(some)References: Wikipedia.

NB: soccer/football - same difference, y'all get that, right?


CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 31 2025, 8:29pm

Post #11 of 15 (17445 views)
Shortcut
I can spot Meneldor in his SCA gear a mile away [In reply to] Can't Post

and now we know he was a NZ football/soccer knight.


Quote
with 7 teams from Australia plus one team from New Zealand

Hmmm, 7 for one group, 1 for another. Who got 3 "teams" and who got 9? Brunei and Indonesia? And why did the team go defunct, unless the knights only played at night, and staying up until 2 am to watch a game start was too much even for ardent fans?


Meneldor
Doriath


Mar 31 2025, 11:40pm

Post #12 of 15 (17355 views)
Shortcut
Drat! [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course you know that now that you've seen through my disguise and discovered my secret identity, you cannot be allowed to share that knowledge with the world. Please don't take it personally, and know that I hold you in the highest regard.






They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


CuriousG
Gondolin


Apr 1 2025, 4:20am

Post #13 of 15 (16869 views)
Shortcut
"And my axe!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Meneldor the Zealous gained fame as a soccer player, exploiting a little-known soccer rule that allowed players to hack the ball to pieces if they sported 2 axes at once, and thus score a point. "It looked like an orc head, I swear!" was his common excuse to judges, who in general doubled as orc extras in Peter Jackson films and thus rather skittish and deferential due to Meneldor's head count.


Lissuin
Doriath


Apr 1 2025, 9:55pm

Post #14 of 15 (14439 views)
Shortcut
"...many things wild and strange we knew." [In reply to] Can't Post




Quote
“Time was when a squirrel could go from tree to tree from what is now the Shire to Dunland west of Isengard. In those lands I journeyed with the Lord Elrond once, and many things wild and strange we knew.”
Sir Meneldor


And they went forth and traveled paths known only to the denizens of the forest, and many bright eyes watched their progress from the leafy darkness above. One well-armed knight silently followed them for league upon league from branch to branch with cautious curiosity. When at last the three reached the forest edge, this diminutive warrior descended and challenged them to a game of kickball.

Beware of tall tails, indeed.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Apr 2 2025, 12:05am

Post #15 of 15 (13456 views)
Shortcut
Kickball was a gentler alternative to "crossbow tag." // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.