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The Last Alliance
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CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 25 2025, 8:53pm

Post #76 of 95 (28865 views)
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Even though The Hobbit came long before much of the lore, [In reply to] Can't Post

I love how "The Quest of Erebor" in particular makes explicit the usually implicit geopolitics of the Good-Evil struggle in Middle-earth. As Gandalf points out, there's very little to stop a horde of Easterlings, united with a dragon, from sweeping east across the northern lands and destroying Rivendell and--why not?--the Havens at Lindon.


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"When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador! There might be no Queen in Gondor." [meaning: Arwen would have been killed in the sack of Rivendell]


But via The Hobbit, the Wise eliminated the dragon, evicted Sauron from Mirkwood, re-established Erebor and Dale, and put a big fat obstacle in the way of Sauron's eastern forces aimed at Eriador, leaving it sheltered in peace, so the hobbits only had a few ruffians to deal with rather than whole armies and wasteland.

I think it's also somewhere in UT, when discussing Lorien and Galadriel, that a rather brief note says that Galadriel saw Amroth's realm falling apart after his departure/death/whatever, and she viewed Lorien as a necessary salient against Sauron's forces, not deeming Thranduil's realm to be enough on its own. And sure enough Lorien helped absorb multiple blows from Dol Goldur, wiped out an army from Sauron on the Wold, and of course later toppled Dol Guldur, so again, the larger strategy of the Wise, which often seems frustratingly passive, proved to be pretty dang solid once the ultimate war with Sauron finally came, even without a Next to Last Alliance.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Mar 28 2025, 2:12pm

Post #77 of 95 (27933 views)
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not that Tolkien doesn’t love an absent king [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The events of the Scouring of the Shire come to mind - I could imagine an alternate version of events where the leaders of the West rush to aid the hobbits in their effort to rid the land of Sharkey. We often focus on Gandalf's non-participation in those events, but I think Aragorn's absence speaks to a similar mindset about the future world that they're all building here.


One slightly different way to look at this is: Elessar is not absent in the scouring. Pippin is the king’s man.* And to the extent the other three aren’t, or aren’t yet, officially acting in that capacity, it’s something of a detail, soon to be remedied in the cases of Merry and Sam (and Frodo is kind of functionally in a class by himself at this point, an adventurer emeritus, the first of the hobbits to take up arms and now having seemingly graduated from warfare entirely into a newly invented quasi-pacifism.)

The hobbits have been hearing from their mentors, and repeating to others across the north, that the King is in power now and reforms are coming swiftly under that power. Well, as soon as they reach the Shire and hit an iron gate that isn’t meant to be there, they become that power, and they enact those reforms, and although they seldom say so it can be fairly considered that they do all of this under Elessar’s aegis and as his agents.


*I wanted to add something like “and so is his father” but I realize this may be another of my old misconceptions. I know Aragorn appoints the Thain along with the Mayor and the Master as a counsellor to the northern throne, not long from now, but I had taken that as something of a reaffirmation in the case of the Thain; I had it in my head that the Thain had always been the king’s man in the Shire, dating back to the glory days of Arnor. That this in fact was precisely the nature and probably origin of that hereditary post. But put to it, I can’t think of any passage where this is stated clearly. Can anybody confirm or deny? Is Paladin already in the service of a king who’s been more or less notional for many Numenorean generations, or just the latest to occupy a modest seat of locally-grown aristocracy that the Shire-hobbits devised for themselves in the usual way, somewhere back in their shadowy history?


Felagund
Mithlond


Mar 28 2025, 3:04pm

Post #78 of 95 (27709 views)
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Thain-related hobbit-lore [In reply to] Can't Post

Reckon you can find the hobbit-lore you're looking for in the 'Prologue' to LotR. The section on the early history of the Shire includes a bit on governance. During the period when there was still a King of Arthedain, the hobbits of the Shire had their own ruling chieftains. After the demise of the last Arnorian kingdom, they chose from amongst these chiefs an office-holder, the Thain, who'd serve as the King's representative until... well, until further notice!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 28 2025, 7:12pm

Post #79 of 95 (26100 views)
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Quite right. Pippin is explicit about this [In reply to] Can't Post

At that iron gate into the Shire:

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[Ruffian speaking] “Swagger it, swagger it, my little cock-a-whoop. But that won’t stop us living in this fat little country where you have lazed long enough. And’-he snapped his fingers in Frodo’s face-‘King’s messengers! That for them! When I see one, I’ll take notice, perhaps.’

This was too much for Pippin. His thoughts went back to the Field of Cormallen, and here was a squint-eyed rascal calling the Ring-bearer ‘little cock-a-whoop’. He cast back his cloak, flashed out his sword, and the silver and sable of Gondor gleamed on him as he rode forward.

‘I am a messenger of the King,’ he said. ‘You are speaking to the King’s friend, and one of the most renowned in all the lands of the West. You are a ruffian and a fool. Down on your knees in the road and ask pardon, or I will set this troll’s bane in you!’”
Scouring of the Shire


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Mar 28 2025, 7:40pm

Post #80 of 95 (25890 views)
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Of course... [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it ended up being called The Last Alliance because of random historical chance?

Y'know, like Eorl shouting "Forth Eorlingas" as a joke because he'd just broken wind; but everyone else thought it was a battle-cry; and so it became military tradition and everyone was stuck with it?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Mar 28 2025, 9:33pm

Post #81 of 95 (24960 views)
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There is a ticklish permanence in the naming of things [In reply to] Can't Post

I had thought to say, calling it the Last Alliance may have seemed all well and good in the decades following it. So much for the “war to end all wars.” Once you’ve gone and labeled a specific period of history the “modern” era, what then? The post-post-post modern era? The current era? The post-current era? The era previously known as the future era?


DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond

Mar 28 2025, 10:32pm

Post #82 of 95 (24804 views)
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Modern [In reply to] Can't Post

Microsoft introduced the "Modern UI" with Windows 8, and look what happened to that.


Felagund
Mithlond


Mar 28 2025, 10:32pm

Post #83 of 95 (24795 views)
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His Majesty and his proxies [In reply to] Can't Post

Love your perspective on this, the proxy presence of Elessar at the Scouring of the Shire. And the passage that noWiz has quoted is a nice addition to this. I'll throw in another, from Elessar's final words to Pippin in 'Many Partings':


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'... But the Palantír of Orthanc the King will keep, to see what is passing in his realm, and what his servants are doing. For do not forget, Peregrin Took, that you are a knight of Gondor, and I do not release you from your service. You are going now on leave, but I may recall you. And remember, dear friends of the Shire, that my Realm lies also in the North, and I shall come there one day.'


Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


cats16
Gondolin


Mar 29 2025, 12:45am

Post #84 of 95 (23835 views)
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Quite right! [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed on all parts - I was typing while at work and didn't mention the hobbits themselves being empowered etc. and was more so focused on the idea of "shining white knights from Gondor rushing in aid" to the Shire.

Smile

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 30 2025, 2:15am

Post #85 of 95 (23702 views)
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I thought Eorl shouted "Fifth Eorlingas!" I'm sure he did after yelling "Fourth!" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Felagund
Mithlond


Mar 30 2025, 10:29pm

Post #86 of 95 (23648 views)
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Gandalf and Galadriel, geopoliticians [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember when I bought my first copy of Unfinished Tales, in the mid-'80s - the paperback with the wonderful Roger Garland illustration of Glaurung - I was absolutely taken with 'The Quest for Erebor'. The other tales grew on me, as I grew up a bit more but there's still something about Gandalf's planning and geopolitics, retrofitting the events of The Hobbit into the bigger picture, that I really enjoy re-reading.

And the foresight of Galadriel that you recall, that's in 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn':


Quote
In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lórien would become a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must inevitably come before it was again defeated (if that were possible); but that it needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than the Silvan folk possessed.


There's a payoff for this foresight that comes earlier than the War of the Ring, set out in yet another section of Unfinished Tales, 'Cirion & Eorl'. In that tale, there's a wonderful passage where the host of Eorl, when it draws near to Dol Guldur on its way to aid Gondor witnesses a remarkable event. A "dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it [Dol Guldur]", only to be met by a "gleaming mist" that passed out of Lórien, and "they [the Éothéod] saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur." Eorl's forces then ride into the white mist and "were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy." An early power play, of sorts, between Caras Galadhon and Dol Guldur, with the latter thwarted and the Éothéod consequently free to ride into history books, at the Battle of the Field of Celebrant.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


CuriousG
Gondolin


Mar 31 2025, 8:37pm

Post #87 of 95 (15810 views)
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Big strategy moves [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for looking those up! I think the other place where Tolkien's big map strategy played out was Beleriand and the fight against Morgoth, with Beleriand conveniently defended by various mountain ranges that aided in the defense and provided an extra sense of security while the Siege of Angband lasted. I think Tolkien excelled at both big and small strategy, as I particularly think the Battle of the Pelennor makes compelling re-reads as forces clash and move around the local map.


Felagund
Mithlond


Mar 31 2025, 8:52pm

Post #88 of 95 (15703 views)
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more musings on the role of The Hobbit in LotR world-building [In reply to] Can't Post

Another one of my favourite repurposings of The Hobbit for the world-building of LotR, is a scene that from 'Flight to the Ford':


Quote
Here and there upon the heights and ridges they caught glimpses of ancient walls of stone, and the ruins of towers; they had an ominous look. Frodo, who was not walking, had time to gaze ahead and to think. He recalled Bilbo's account of his journey and the threatening towers on the hills north of the Road, in the country near the Troll's wood where his first serious adventure had happened. Frodo guessed that they were now in the same region, and wondered if by chance they would pass near the spot.
'Who lives in this land?' he asked. 'And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?'
'No!' said Strider. 'Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end.'


This is an elaboration of the following, from 'Roast Mutton' - Chapter 2 of The Hobbit:


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Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.


Not only is this an elaboration, it's also a wonderful evolution of an evocative line from The Hobbit into a means of telling the history of Arnor, specifically Rhudaur. Which itself is a relatively late construct in the history of the drafting of LotR, as well as a tool for the building up of the backstory of the still mysterious character, Strider.

A digression. Interestingly, the earlier draft of 'Flight to the Ford' integrates this view of the hills into a pre-Rhudaur conception of the country thereabouts. The "ruins of towers" are a legacy of an evil people destroyed by Elendil and Gil-galad, in the context of the War of the (Last) Alliance. The history of the Alliance goes back to the drafting of The Fall of Númenor - in drafting terms, 'ancient history' compared to the building of the Appendices to LotR, in which the rise and fall of Arnor properly takes shape.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


squire
Gondolin


Apr 1 2025, 12:41am

Post #89 of 95 (14333 views)
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Show me a castle that doesn't have an 'evil look'. That's what castles do - it's part of their function. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's part of Tolkien's magical myth-making, and its divorce from our own actual world, that he can assert that a castle can have an 'evil look' and that that look can be ascribed to the 'evil' or 'wickedness' of the people that built the castle.

Wait, what? What are we talking here: Gothic castles? Romanesque castles? Neoclassical castles? Victorian revival castles? Follies? Islamic fortresses?

And what, by contrast, would make a castle - inherently a forbidding architecture of defensive strength and unfriendly appearance - have a 'good look' as if it had been built by benign, friendly, or peaceable people? Softer curves? less pointy towers? thinner and lower walls with more windows and doors and light and air in the curtain walls and towers and keep? That is, stupid castles that aren't meant to withstand sieges and assaults?

I'm kidding about the castles. But I'm not kidding about Tolkien's willingness and gifted ability to personify and ethicize architecture and nature in the service of his fantasy world, where 'Evil' and 'Good' are clearly defined realms that people have to choose between.


squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.

= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Gondolin


Apr 1 2025, 12:43am

Post #90 of 95 (14327 views)
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I've always enjoyed that Hobbit-LOTR connection [In reply to] Can't Post

What was a descriptive, mood-setting and non-lore statement in The Hobbit became lore in LOTR--so cool.

On first read, we have no idea what "fell under the shadow of Angmar" means, but it radiates an ominous sound, so reading the Appendices is rewarding.


Meneldor
Doriath


Apr 1 2025, 3:17am

Post #91 of 95 (13458 views)
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Tell us [In reply to] Can't Post

you've never been to Disney World and Cinderella's Castle without saying you've never been to Disney World and Cinderella's Castle. Laugh




They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


squire
Gondolin


Apr 1 2025, 11:43am

Post #92 of 95 (13221 views)
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Yes, Tolkien loathed Disney for just that reason [In reply to] Can't Post

Disney's famous 'good' or cheerful Cinderella's castle is based on a famous 19th century construction in Bavaria, the Neuschwanstein castle with its cute pointy towers and rows of open windows and elaborate gothic tracery. It was never meant to actually function as a real castle in a real siege, and so the Romantic architects, like the Disney Imagineers, could have fun with the castle idea and make it friendly looking.

But Tolkien hated how Disney made Snow White's dwarves cute and friendly, and he would have hated the idea of a Cinderella's castle on the high hills of Wilderland.


squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.

= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond


Apr 2 2025, 6:12pm

Post #93 of 95 (8502 views)
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Gandalf and Galadriel peering at the big map [In reply to] Can't Post

I had read Unfinished Tales before, but none of this matter really sank into my brain until I was trying to devise a likely second-age television plotline, and I got to thinking about what went on in Gandalf’s head all those centuries of trying to machinate against Sauron. I’ve posted about it at length elsewhere, but it really does seem that Gandalf and Galadriel (to what extent independently, to what extent in coordination, I’m not sure) really did go to some lengths to make sure there were passages for their allies, and hedges against the too-easy passage of their foes, across a great contested line from the southwest to the northeast—and that Sauron himself was playing much the same game. To what extent did they perceive Sauron’s objectives and fears? Because I think Sauron’s own broad geopolitical game shows that the fears that most preyed on him weren’t always the ones the White Council and the rest of the Good Guy leadership expected. Saruman was probably more singlemindedly obsessed with the Ring than Sauron himself was; Sauron wanted his Ring back but didn’t really need it to have a good path to enduring victory for another age or two across Middle-Earth. Provided, that is, the one thing he most dreaded and most strove to exterminate didn’t squirm out of the woodwork to confound all his plans: a functioning Númenórean nation under the rule of a descendant of Elendil. That whole grand Maginot Line across the map is present for one reason: to prevent any heirs from the north kingdom (where he never forgets he’s not *strictly* certain there might not still be some) from coming to sit in the throne of the south kingdom, where they still have a nation for a king to rule.

I like to think Gandalf at some point realized this aspect of Sauron’s game.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Apr 3 2025, 7:50pm

Post #94 of 95 (8444 views)
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Modern Architecture [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think it's part of Tolkien's magical myth-making, and its divorce from our own actual world, that he can assert that a castle can have an 'evil look' and that that look can be ascribed to the 'evil' or 'wickedness' of the people that built the castle.

Wait, what? What are we talking here: Gothic castles? Romanesque castles? Neoclassical castles? Victorian revival castles? Follies? Islamic fortresses?

And what, by contrast, would make a castle - inherently a forbidding architecture of defensive strength and unfriendly appearance - have a 'good look' as if it had been built by benign, friendly, or peaceable people? Softer curves? less pointy towers? thinner and lower walls with more windows and doors and light and air in the curtain walls and towers and keep? That is, stupid castles that aren't meant to withstand sieges and assaults?


For the castles with the evil look I'm imagining something inspired by modern architecture. Brutalism. Bad proportions. Maybe some ugly statues to liven up the place.

You know, even something as simple as the the width of the window sidings has a profound effect on the look of a building, but that gets widely ignored these days in favor of easy solutions. The standard-issue window siding is too narrow to be good for most use-cases but gets used anyway because it's the standard, at the cost of the overall aesthetics. I suspect most designers don't even notice the issue, and if they do, money is what counts.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Apr 6 2025, 5:02pm

Post #95 of 95 (8287 views)
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Nassty Fortresssessss [In reply to] Can't Post

That idea reminded me of flourescent Minas Morgul with its rotating top tower. It does sound a bit 'modern':

Quote
A long-tilted valley, a deep gulf of shadow, ran back far into the mountains. Upon the further side, some way within the valley’s arms, high on a rocky seat upon the black knees of the Ephel Dúath, stood the walls and tower of Minas Morgul. All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the marble walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing. In the walls and tower windows showed, like countless black holes looking inward into emptiness; but the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way and then another, a huge ghostly head leering into the night.


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

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