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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is the Single Movie Hobbit a contractual obligation?
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AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

May 26 2008, 2:28pm

Post #1 of 37 (2777 views)
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Is the Single Movie Hobbit a contractual obligation? Can't Post

Wow, this place has changed a lot since I was last here. Had to re-register and everything! Nice new look...

Anyway, on to business. One thing that struck me in the chat is that it seems the Single Movie Hobbit is contractually obliged. Here's the exact quote:


Quote
The agreement is, however, that the second film must be relevant and emotionally strong enough to be brought to life but that we must try and contain the HOBBIT in a single film.



Personally I always hoped they would eventually decide to go with a two part Hobbit, filled out with White council and Dol Guldor material, but this would suggest that its not an option.


leo
Rohan


May 26 2008, 2:40pm

Post #2 of 37 (2621 views)
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Maybe not contractually... [In reply to] Can't Post

..but more of an agreement between the script writers / filmmakers.

A two-part Hobbit would be nice, but I think for the filmmakers and studios it is far more tempting to make movie about the events between Hobbit and LOTR. And to be honest, it shouldn't be too hard to fit The Hobbit in a 3 hour movie in the first place...


SeanDuff
The Shire

May 26 2008, 3:55pm

Post #3 of 37 (2534 views)
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I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm finding it very difficult to envision what F2 will contain... I think it would be much easier and cleaner to do a two part Hobbit and have it break where to tonal change is... this will also help with the late introduction, like Bard... a main character that is introduced for the end of the third act?.... so much happens within the boundaries of the hobbit timeline but that isnt really discussed and thats what should be used to expand the story and then broken down into two parts... the only problem i have with this approach is i can't figure out a decent place that you would end Bilbo's story to be continued in F2.

There is some really great stuff in the FAN ART forum!!!!


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


May 26 2008, 5:25pm

Post #4 of 37 (2504 views)
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Late introductions [In reply to] Can't Post

...are easily solved by showing 'parallel' timelines, i.e., introduce Bard early on and show what was going on in Dale during different parts of Bilbo's journey, then merge the two story lines toward the end.

As far as film two, some overlap with The Hobbit could also be done - for example, following the tangent of what happens in Gandalf's story line once he leaves the party on the eaves of Mirkwood. The entire story could 'flash back' and pick up as far back in the Appendices as they want to go; all the way back to Gandalf's arrival in Middle-earth, the forming of the White Council, Gandalf meeting Aragorn; there are thousands of years of options. Throw in what Gollum, Sauron and the Witch-king are doing on the side of the 'bad-guys' and I see more than enough material for a second movie.

I think interjecting too many of those different events and story lines into a Hobbit movie would destroy the continuity of the book/story as written which is why I suspect the agreement is to contain as much of the Hobbit in one movie as possible.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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merklynn
Lorien


May 26 2008, 5:54pm

Post #5 of 37 (2559 views)
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Parallel timelines [In reply to] Can't Post

And I agree with Altaira. There is more than enough material for inspiration, and PJ and GDT said that they were going to focus in on one particular set of events in the 60 year period between The Hobbit and FOTR and find the story to tell from that. This would likely be supplemented by flashbacks and such to events during the 60 year period, and possibly even long before The Hobbit. Also I like the concept of parallel timelines, in the The Hobbit F1, although Bard's loss of his wife would need careful placement, possibly as a tale told to Bilbo by Gandalf during the journey, perhaps during a discussion about Smaug. That way we would see Bard earlier in the story and be aware first hand of his tragic story.

As for F2, I think again, Aragorn and Arwen, along with the Hunt for Gollum will be the major story line that the writers will have the most material to work from and the film will thus centre around those events. It seems that nothing REAL actually happened between the White Council vs Dol Guldur other than their ageement and acceptance that the Necromancer is Sauron and his realizing he has to move to the safety of Mordor. Likely no real physical confrontation took place which relegates this idea to being primarily a council scene.

One thing I think The Hobbit F1 can do is show Estel in Rivendell and have him meet Bilbo, or else revisit this event in F2 flashing back to show Thorin's company as they passed through Rivendell and Bilbo meeting Estel, in order to set up for F2 and Aragorns protection of the Shire and later hunt for Gollum.


FrodoEyes
Rivendell

May 26 2008, 6:19pm

Post #6 of 37 (2543 views)
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Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

In the appendices it says that the White Council decided to take action and make a strike against Sauron in Dol Guldur. People may interpret it differently but to me that says fighting with lots of elves and orcs!


Elizabeth
Valinor


May 26 2008, 6:55pm

Post #7 of 37 (2555 views)
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The hunt for Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

...does not belong in either movie. It happens during the 17-yr gap in FotR. Gandalf doesn't have a clue about the possible nature of Bilbo's Ring until then.

Technically, I suppose they could show Gollum leaving the Misty Mtns to search for the Ring, or even his captivity in Mordor, but that story line doesn't resolve reasonably within the scope of an F2, and I think they're better off leaving it out.





Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


May 26 2008, 7:17pm

Post #8 of 37 (2569 views)
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The Appendices also say: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"The White Coucil meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to preven t Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his pland abandons Dol Guldur."



Emphasis is mine. It's mentioned, in "The final chapter of The Hobbit


Quote

"every now and again he [Bilbo] would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the story which he did not yet know came in. It was in this way that he learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeard that Gandalf had been to a great council of white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood"



and again in "The Shadow of the Past:"


Quote

"How long have you known all this?" asked Frodo again.

"Known?" said Gandalf. "I have known much that only the wise know, Frodo. But if you mean "known about this ring", well, I still do not know, one might say. there is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess."

"When did I first begin to guess?' he mused, searching back in memory. "Let me see - it was the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five armies, that Bilbo found his ring."



Emphasis Tolkien's.

and again in "The Council of Elrond"


Quote

"Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur and secretly explore his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again. Some, too, will remember also that Saruman disuaded us from open deeds against him, and for long we watched him only. Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring; a strange chance, if chance it was."

"But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron had also watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar from Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after cam to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself."

Quote


Emphais mine.

I always thought it meant they physically went to drive him out but he 'ran away' just as, or just before, they got there.

Those quotes also remind me of Gandalf entering Dol Guldur and finding not only Sauron, but Thorin's father Thrain held prisoner and the last of the Dwarven rings in Sauron's clutches. Another great movie opportunity!


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar

(This post was edited by Altaira on May 26 2008, 11:10pm)


leo
Rohan


May 26 2008, 7:28pm

Post #9 of 37 (2551 views)
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Yeah but that last event took place before the events in... [In reply to] Can't Post

... The Hobbit.

But it sure would make a nice prologue or something!


leo
Rohan


May 26 2008, 7:30pm

Post #10 of 37 (2440 views)
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It would make for an interesting movie though [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought that F2 should focus on Gandalf or maybe Aragorn, but I guess it could focus on Gollum too. Let's face it, his character is almost as popular, and his storyline and arch are perhaps even more interesting... But you are right, technically the most interesting events in Gollum's story belong in FOTR.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


May 26 2008, 7:38pm

Post #11 of 37 (2913 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

While PJ and GDT have said Movie 2 will concentrate on events in the time period between The Hobbit and LOTR, there's a ton of info. in the Appendices that lead up to those events that would help clarify them. I think people may be taking the '60 year period' comment too literally; concentrating on that period doesn't exclude using background info both before, and after the event of those years.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Guillermo
Rivendell

May 26 2008, 10:17pm

Post #12 of 37 (7976 views)
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2 centavos- [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not a contractual matter. At this stage we are all finding out things- I believe, at the moment, that THE HOBBIT is better contained in a single film and kept brisk and fluid with no artificial "break point" but that too may change. One of the reasons why I am comfortable doing this is because nothing, at any point, has been presented as "contractual". Quite the contrary, everything is genuine and exciting in that Blessed Island at the edge of the world! I am pretty sure that if we dont find a great F2 we will do only a single film or if we find that if the HOBBIT cannot be contained in a single film and that there is, in fact, a natural break, we may end up with two.

Everything we shared yesterday is "What we know..." while PJ and the gang finish LOVELY BONES and Your Truly finishes this insane enterprise that is HELLBOY II: THE GOLDEN ARMY. Im in London until late June and won't go to NZ until Late July.

So much can change. But so much is being done to assure the best we can do...

Yr Obt Svt

GDT


(This post was edited by Guillermo on May 26 2008, 10:18pm)


burrahobbit
Rohan


May 26 2008, 10:32pm

Post #13 of 37 (2444 views)
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That's very reassuring [In reply to] Can't Post

There are lots of possibilities for Film2 plots, though it will be challenging to weave these threads together into a great narrative that can sit favourably alongside Tolkien's novels. It sounds very much like good storytelling is at the heart of your approach to the films and that must be the best way forward.

Thanks for dropping by TORN, and I'm really looking forward to seeing your latest film! Smile


        
     View my Hobbit Film Adaptation Discussion


AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

May 26 2008, 10:46pm

Post #14 of 37 (2432 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for replying Guillermo, and I'm delighted to hear nothing is set in stone. I think its wonderful that you guys are keeping an open mind on everything. I really appreciate your taking the time to keep us informed on this stuff!



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


May 26 2008, 11:21pm

Post #15 of 37 (2440 views)
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Thanks for the clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

How exciting it must be to have all of those options still open before you.


Quote

So much can change. But so much is being done to assure the best we can do...



..which only become more and more apparent.

Best of luck with the 'insanity.' Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Elven
Valinor


May 26 2008, 11:33pm

Post #16 of 37 (2473 views)
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and that makes me think .. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder how long each film will be - I suppose the general expectation is that each film will be a 3 hours long and counting ... although that is just an assumption I guess .. it will be interesting (and exciting) to see how these plots develop - and what amount of time is given over to each depending on the evolution of the story/s, and the way you go about development. Looking forward to hearing of this emerging process. Thanks for the calrification at this time.

Best of luck with HBII Guillermo Smile

Cheers
Elven


Were off to Hobbiton finally!

Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!



ShadoFaxs
Rivendell

May 27 2008, 1:17am

Post #17 of 37 (2435 views)
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Thank you ,Guillermo. [In reply to] Can't Post

This fan is perfectly content to let the filmmakers chart their course - although your concern for the fans is certainly generous. If there's anyone I trust in movie making, it's you and Mr. Jackson, along with your compartriot Alfonso Cuaron.

I'm reminded of Mozart's response when Emperor Franz Josef worried about his new opera having too many notes. Mozart replied that the new piece would have just as many as it needed. That's the way I feel about these two films; they will be as long as they need to be, and cover the story material that makes sense to their creators. An organic whole, and that means no details set in stone for quite some time. Which just makes this endeavor all the more exciting - so many possibilities!

The pre-production and making of these movies is like a two year long birthday party, with treats and surprises along the way. And I love surprises. Wink Of course I want to know everything. But I'm content to wait.

Godspeed!


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 27 2008, 3:52am

Post #18 of 37 (2543 views)
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Is there a 17-year gap in the film of FotR? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Kelvarhin
Half-elven


May 27 2008, 4:06am

Post #19 of 37 (2369 views)
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Not in the film, but I think it is in the book // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


May 27 2008, 4:33am

Post #20 of 37 (2463 views)
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It's not necessarily not in the film [In reply to] Can't Post

And I agree that wherever possible they should stay with the timeline of the book.



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Peredhil lover
Valinor

May 27 2008, 5:30am

Post #21 of 37 (2453 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've already decided long ago that I will take it as it comes and to trust you and the whole team to do the right thing. And I greatly appreciate this flexible approach to the question! It is so reassuring.

Good luck and thank you so much for explaining more once again!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Elizabeth
Valinor


May 27 2008, 7:33am

Post #22 of 37 (2490 views)
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It was very cleverly done. [In reply to] Can't Post

The film managed to elide the time after Bilbo's departure to Gandalf's return in such a way that we do not perceive elapsed time, whether 17 years or a few months. We know it has to be some fair amount of time, because Gandalf had time to ride to Minas Tirith and do some research, but that's all we know.

We know it was 17 years.





Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Kelvarhin
Half-elven


May 27 2008, 7:36am

Post #23 of 37 (2402 views)
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I always got the impression from the film [In reply to] Can't Post

that it suggested months rather than years.

But you're right, we knew it was 17 years Smile, but then we'd read the book.


There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 27 2008, 8:48am

Post #24 of 37 (2395 views)
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It depends on how you look at it [In reply to] Can't Post

Did the Fellowship remain in Lothlorien for a month? Wink

I am sooooo glad we didn't have temporal subtitles during the course of these movies. It would have been just plain silly. Except for "The Shire... 60 years later" I thought the filmmakers were spot on with the way they portrayed the events without concerning themselves with the temporal issue by way of subtitles - book-firsters knew the timelines and it worked for movie firsters who didn't (I am a movie firster by the way).

People keep saying the timelines were compressed... but I really don't get what that means. Just because there weren't subtitles that went "17 years later", "1 month later", "10 years ago" etc. doesn't mean that the whole story unfolded over subsequent days.

Crows and Gibbets! What is The House Of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater Sires.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 27 2008, 8:59am

Post #25 of 37 (2366 views)
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You said it [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Film 2 can make use of those 17 years in more ways than we can imagine. I mean, the whole of Film 2 can essentially be ONLY those 17 years, depicting the events narrated at the Council of Elrond (with of course relevant flashbacks to the 60 years between The Hobbit and LOTR).

I can actually now imagine Film 2 beginning with the scene with Gandalf telling Frodo "Keep it secret, keep it safe" and then:
  • Riding out from the Shire to find out about the Ring
  • Meet with Denethor, maybe see him use the Palantir, and maybe get a glimpse of young Boromir and Faramir (oooh, and have Gandalf tell them some tales of Middle-earth's history too Smile)
  • Have Aragorn track Gollum
  • Visit with Thranduil for something just so we get to see the Mirkwood elves post-Hobbit Crazy
  • Have the Rangers watch over the Shire
  • Meet Elrond and Galadriel somewhere inbetween
  • Show the Black Riders at the Lonely Mountain asking for news of a certain "Baggins". Oh, the film can actually show the Battle of Osgiliath that we see in TTT's flashback - the battle where the Black Riders force the Bridge of Osgiliath and begin the hunt for the Ring, following which Boromir rides out for Rivendell.
How cool would it be to actually see Boromir and Faramir's dream? "In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West, a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice..." It could be a very dramatic scene, with an ominous voice crying out...

Seek for the Sword that was broken
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be councels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isuldur's Bane shall waken,
And the halfling forth shall stand.

In fact, now that I think about it, I think those 17 years right there comprise a pretty solid storyline for Film 2 Blush

Crows and Gibbets! What is The House Of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater Sires.

(This post was edited by Earl on May 27 2008, 9:07am)

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