Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Helm and Freca come to blows

noWizardme
Gondolin


Dec 18 2024, 1:15pm

Post #1 of 14 (7479 views)
Shortcut
Helm and Freca come to blows Can't Post

The arrival of the War of the Rohirrim anime has had me go back to the LOTR Appendices to see what Tolkien said about all that. Perhaps it would be of general interest to discuss it?

(This discussion, being in the Reading Room, ought to be about what Tolkien wrote. That's because of this board's scope: Critical analysis and discussion of Tolkien's literary works. An excellent discussion about the anime is in progress over here, if that is what anyone wants to join instead, or as well. )

Where to start?
Concerning the Battle of Celebrant (2510TA) which the Gondorian forces are losing badly when, all of a sudden:


Quote
“All hope was lost when, unlooked for, the Riders came out of the North and broke upon the rear of the enemy. Then the fortunes of battle were reversed, and the enemy was driven with slaughter over Limlight. Eorl led his men in pursuit, and so great was the fear that went before the horsemen of the North that the invaders of the Wold were also thrown into panic, and the Riders hunted them over the plains of Calenardhon.’ The people of that region had become few since the Plague, and most of those that remained had been slaughtered by the savage Easterlings. Cirion, therefore, in reward for his aid, gave Calenardhon between Anduin and Isen to Eorl and his people; and they sent north for their wives and children and their goods and settled in that land. They named it anew the Mark of the Riders, and they called themselves the Eorlingas; but in Gondor their land was called Rohan, and its people the Rohirrim (that is, the Horse-lords).

LOTR Appendices - as will be every quote in this post


This arrangement is contraversial to the Rohirrim's new neighbours West of the Isen. Dunlendings take the view - at least some of them and on occasion - that Calenardhon between Anduin and Isen is properly part of Dunland.

This can result in opportunistic violence:

Quote
2644-2718TA [In the reign of] Déor. In his time the Dunlendings raided often over the Isen. In 2710 they occupied the deserted ring of Isengard, and could not be dislodged.


But there has also been intermarriage, including in the ruling class:


Quote
“There was at that time [the reign of King Helm, 2691 - 2759] a man named Freca, who claimed descent from King Fréawine [who had reigned 2594-2680], though he had, men said, much Dunlendish blood, and was dark-haired. He grew rich and powerful, having wide lands on either side of the Adorn.


he had, men said, much Dunlendish blood, and was dark-haired can easily be read as a whiff of tribalism; that Freca's rise to wealth and power might be being resented by somebody: with much Dunlendish blood (visible because of hair colour) being a sore point.

We know that there can be such ethno-chauvanistic tensions in Tolkien's conception of Middle-earth, because of the troubles caused in Gondor by the kin-strife. The best thing I have read on that is Felegund's series of posts on this board, starting here. .... and particularly of relevance to race-relations here

Whether Freca is resented for his Dunlending connections, or for his wealth, or other reasons, he does go on to suggest he has alarming political ambitions:

Quote
There was at that time a man named Freca, who claimed descent from King Fréawine, though he had, men said, much Dunlendish blood, and was dark-haired. He grew rich and powerful, having wide lands on either side of the Adorn. Near its source he made himself a stronghold and paid little heed to the king. Helm mistrusted him, but called him to his councils; and he came when it pleased him.
‘To one of these councils Freca rode with many men, and he asked the hand of Helm’s daughter for his son Wulf.

I see several inuries to the King's authority here, the last and perhaps most insulting to be to ask to marry into the royal line, as if Freca were another monarch and not a subject.

Then it gets worse, to outright insolence and threats:

Quote

‘Then Freca fell in a rage and reviled the king, and said this at the last: “Old kings that refuse a proffered staff may fall on their knees.” Helm answered: “Come! The marriage of your son is a trifle. Let Helm and Freca deal with it later. Meanwhile the king and his council have matters of moment to consider.”


This is completely intollerable. Freca's point is surely that Helm is too weak to rule without Freca's support, which must be secured with a marriage alliance. He might as well announce his plan to invade at the head of a Dunlending army.
Helm's response is:

Quote
‘When the council was over, Helm stood up and laid his great hand on Freca’s shoulder, saying: “The king does not permit brawls in his house, but men are freer outside”; and he forced Freca to walk before him out from Edoras into the field. To Freca’s men that came up he said: “Be off! We need no hearers. We are going to speak of a private matter alone. Go and talk to my men!” And they looked and saw that the king’s men and his friends far outnumbered them, and they drew back.
‘“Now, Dunlending,” said the king, “you have only Helm to deal with, alone and unarmed. But you have said much already, and it is my turn to speak. Freca, your folly has grown with your belly. You talk of a staff! If Helm dislikes a crooked staff that is thrust on him, he breaks it. So!” With that he smote Freca such a blow with his fist that he fell back stunned, and died soon after.
‘Helm then proclaimed Freca’s son and near kin the king’s enemies; and they fled, for at once Helm sent many men riding to the west marches.’”

Whether Helm meant to kill Freca or just hurt and humiliate him, we don't know. I think Rubicons have been crossed and boats burned at the Council. So Freca has made himself a rebel in any case, and a good black eye is unlikely to have been the end of it.

Note the punishment meted out to Freca's son and kin, who to modern eyes have done nothing wrong. Helm acts as if he has forestalled a coup (which I think is possible).
Or, the assumption may be that Wulf & kin are now obliged to revenge Freca and therefore presumptively rebels.
But I think Wulf might be back, don't you?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Dec 18 2024, 6:07pm

Post #2 of 14 (7432 views)
Shortcut
...then it's Wulf's Hall! Until Helm freezes over, but then Helm's sister-son has the last Frealaf. [In reply to] Can't Post

 I realise that I haven't got much to say about Tolkien's treatment of the rest of the story. And there is little point in just reproducing Tolkien's text. If someone else with more ideas would like to give it a go, please do!

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Silvered-glass
Nargothrond

Dec 18 2024, 9:17pm

Post #3 of 14 (7425 views)
Shortcut
Helm and Freca [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Freca was an ambitious man, but he wasn't planning to be a traitor to Rohan. Rather, he had chosen the path of diplomacy that would have tied himself closer to Rohan and ensured peace on Rohan's borders for many years to come. I think the fault here lies with Helm. Helm was the first person to resort to harsh words and the first to use violence. I get the impression that Helm premeditated killing Freca or at least severely beating him. Freca anticipated no such things, having himself benevolent intentions, and allowed himself be separated from his men.

Wulf would have been a good, even ideal, match for Helm's daughter, politically speaking, and not too low in status. I think Freca rode in with "many men" specifically to give a good impression of himself and his power and wealth so that Helm would be more inclined to accept the marriage offer. Freca didn't bring nearly enough men to overthrow Helm, and I think Freca did that on purpose because he didn't want to threaten The marriage also would have been highly unlikely to result in Freca's offspring getting the throne because Helm already had two strong sons to inherit. Also, the delay of four years before Wulf attacks proves that Freca didn't have an invasion force ready.

So yes I think Helm was the real villain here, a dangerously violent (yet calculating) individual who incited a destructive war with his anti-diplomacy.


Eldy
Dor-Lomin


Dec 18 2024, 9:52pm

Post #4 of 14 (7421 views)
Shortcut
Helm was in the wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

Helm escalates at every turn: Freca's "staff" comment, while obviously the sort of thing a king can't less pass without any response, was made after Helm began the verbal antagonism. Helm is then the first and only one (between the two of them) to resort to physical violence, killing Freca with a single punch that, to all appearances, the other man didn't see coming. Then, as you note, he effectively makes Wulf an outlaw. This tends to be overlooked in fan discussions, and even Appendix A doesn't fully grapple with it, but Wulf was given the choice between fighting back against Helm or spending the rest of his life as a hunted man. I'm inclined to think that Helm assumed, as you suggest, that Wulf would feel obliged to seek revenge, which might even be true in an honour-based society, but it casts Wulf's decision to go to war in a rather different light than it's typically presented.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Dec 19 2024, 10:51am

Post #5 of 14 (7384 views)
Shortcut
I can completely see it that way too. [In reply to] Can't Post

As I wrote my post it became more and more a reflection of what I think Helm might have been thinking. Ideally I would have said that was what it had become.

I did agree that Helm may have totally misunderstood the situation - with disasterous results all round! But should we not also criticise Freca - to an extent at least in being seemingly careless about this key political relationship with his king, until he wants something?

I'll expand further on that in my reply to Eldy, who has made related responses. I realise that I haven't yet answered or acknowledged all the points you've made in teh way they deserve, and I hope a joint reply is OK!

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Dec 19 2024, 11:57am

Post #6 of 14 (7391 views)
Shortcut
A king is never wrong (until your rebellion has succeeded) [In reply to] Can't Post

I certainly agree that Helm comes across as a short-tempered oaf with minimal diplomatic skills or ability to think ahead. Possibly he is just like that, and this is the disadvantage of a hereditary monarchy - if you get a wrong 'un, you're stuck with him.

Or possibly the life and training of an early-medieval king majored on swagger and looking tough, and strategic thinking was an optional add on in an honour-obsessed macho warrior culture.

Helm's behaviour most certainly contributes to a situation that you would have thought could have been avoided - if rebellion or war with the Dunlendings is what Helm fears, he does a great job of dragging that future towards him.

If we consider who is in the right morally (from a modern mind-set) I agree it is clearly not Helm. The Reading Room may have some well-read medievalists who can comment on who would be seen as in the wrong if this were, say, Early Medieval Britain or Scandinavia. I'm not sure I know that historical mindset well enough to comment, but I do wonder whether it would be thought that Freca left the king little room for manouvre (none of which, to be sure, Helm took).

I can also see the logic of the possibility that Silvered-glass has set out - that everything is a misunderstanding, and/or that Helm has foolishly rejected a very suitable strategic marriage alliance. Whose fault is that catastrophic misunderstanding?

How do you think Feca does rated for king-handling (as a practical thing, distinct from who is right or wrong)? King handling is surely a vital skill for the advance or even survival of your dynasty as a medieval lord or lady: even if - especially if - the current king is a short-tempered oaf with minimal diplomatic skills or ability to think ahead. Or shows any of the other wide variety of faults and follies that historical kings have.

As I read it, Freca has been neglecting the key political relationship within his realm. That's explicit - Tolkien says he "paid little heed to the king". He is invited to the king's council: an honour, and where you want to be to do the politics and get your share of the favours. And also of course, a loyal kings man wants to know what the king desires. But he "came when it pleased him". That speaks loudly, I think, whatever Freca means by his absences.


We do not hear of Freca's marriage proposal being floated tentatively or in private where face could be saved (or terms talked). And we don't read hear of any widely-understood relationship or understanding between Wulf and The Unnamed Daughter (the anime may be different).
If Freca just comes out with ia marriage offer unexpectedly in council he is taking a huge risk - especially if it's unlikely that Helm will be able to (or able to see any reason to) diffuse things diplomatically.

Freca is also a fool to lose his temper in reply to the king's insult. As you say, the king can not let that pass.




Tolkien does not elaborate on why "
Helm mistrusted him [Freca], but called him to his councils". I am imagining something, wrongly or rightly -- of course I do not know what real-history Tolkien was incorporating, if any at all! But I'm imagining Freca as being similar to that recurring and problematic figure in English medieval history, the powerful marcher lord.

How this goes is that medieval kingdoms would often find themselves surrounded by potential and intermittent enemies. That is definately also the case for Rohan. The king might therefore need to fight on several fronts at once (as per Rohan, again). A common solution was to promote someone to take charge of one front semi-independently. They woudl deal with the usual low level cattle raids, skirmishes and the results of hot-tempered, honour-obsessed warrior cultures who inevitably go looking for wars. They would hold off a major invasion long enough for the king to come to the rescue.

To do this job the marcher lord needed the sort of significant regional power that Tolkien describes: "He grew rich and powerful, having wide lands on either side of the Adorn. Near its source he made himself a stronghold".

The marcher families often also entered into the sorts of over-the-border marriage alliances which we can infer from Freca having Dunlendish "blood". If there are kings or clans or chiftans in Dunland (Tolkien deos not say) then perhaps members of Freca's family have married into those dynasties. Such connections could be useful in keeping the peace, or gathering intelligence.

But all these things - so useful to the king in a loyal marcher lord - could become a liability to the king if the marcher lord starts to think a bit too independently.
  • The stronghold could resist the king as well as it could resist foreign invaders or rebels
  • The wide lands offer the ability to raise and supply troops - who are primarily loyal to their lord.
  • Marriage-alliances with the neigbours could provide foreign backers for an attempt on the throne. Or drag teh marcher lord into over-the-border politics and wars in a way the king might not prefer.

So that is my guess about Helm's distrust. Of course it could be based on something else. But whatever the cause, Freca comes across as a fool to not notice that distrust, or to stoke it rather than to diffuse it.

I think you are right, Eldy, that Wulf is stuck with the unpalatable options of fugitive or rebel. And additionally we can speculate that there may be expectations, in an honour-based society, that he must seek revenge at whatever cost.
His hand of cards is never strong, I think. He is fortunate or strategic in invading at the same time that Gondor is under attack. He's unlucky about the savage winter. I also think that he must win completely and quickly, or not at all. Maybe he must lose once Rohan's ally Gondor can send aid. I suspect the only way Gondor won't crush the rebellion is if Gondor is pleased to acknowledge the new regieme.

How close does Wulf come? Maybe pretty close - Helm and his sons are dead; if Frealaf rather than Wulf died in Frealaf's attack, then is Wulf last Man standing? If Helm's family is lacking further male heirs (or they can be ealt with) Wulf then marries that un-named daughter of Helm after all, and makes peace with Gondor. Maybe that is not a total impossiblity, given that Gondor is beset by enemies and might accept a fait accompli new King of Rohan who could also control Dunland. At that point, it does turn out that it was all Helm's fault.


~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 19 2024, 12:09pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Dec 20 2024, 11:54am

Post #7 of 14 (7337 views)
Shortcut
I have noticed that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have noticed that a situation of which has been smouldering for some time is brought to a head by Helm insulting Freca's girth:


Quote
‘To one of these councils Freca rode with many men, and he asked the hand of Helm’s daughter for his son Wulf. But Helm said: “You have grown big since you were last here; but it is mostly fat, I guess”; and men laughed at that, for Freca was wide in the belt. ‘Then Freca fell in a rage and reviled the king...


Does this mean that Freca has a casus belly?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Eldy
Dor-Lomin


Dec 23 2024, 5:43am

Post #8 of 14 (7276 views)
Shortcut
Excellent analysis [In reply to] Can't Post

Great post, noWiz! I think your marcher lord analogy is a good one: obviously, I'm not in Tolkien's head, either, but it fits what we know of the situation from the books. I hesitate to try to make an assessment of Freca's words or temperament (before being the subject of a fat joke) when we're given no description of how he phrased the suggestion of marriage between their houses, though you raise a good point that making this suggestion in public (apparently without sending out feelers to Helm in private beforehand) was, at the very least, reckless.

For what it's worth, and I was only just reminded of this while working on this post, the geographically isolated West-march of Rohan that Freca ruled seems to have become independent as a result of Wulf's rebellion, not being "reconquered" until the time of King Folcwine, Fréaláf's great-great-grandson (LOTR, Appendix A.II), at which he point he "dr[ove] out the Dunlendings that had occupied it, [though] the people that remained were largely of mixed blood, and their loyalty to Edoras was weak: the slaying of their lord, Freca, by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed [during the War of the Ring] they were more disposed to side with Saruman, and many of their warriors had joined Saruman's forces." (UT, The Battles of the Fords of Isen, note 4) I'm inclined to interpret Helm's distrust of Freca as also being in large part racially motivated, especially given his use of "Dunlending" as an insult, but I suppose one could dispute the "large part" bit.

Wulf would have faced an uphill battle trying to win Gondorian approval of his rule in Rohan, since his Dunlendish invasion force was "joined by enemies of Gondor that landed in the mouths of Lefnui and Isen" (Appendix A). Tolkien did not explicitly identify these enemies as the Corsairs of Umbar, but they seem like the obvious candidates, since the Corsairs were at that very moment raiding and invading the sea-coast of Gondor (the River Lefnui, which flowed south into the Bay of Belfalas, was the western border of Gondor; NoMe, p. 385). Given this high level of co-ordination,* I assume there was an Umbari equivalent of Wulf who wanted to rule Gondor, and the two would have recognised each other's authority if the war had gone differently. Given the failure of the amphibious invasion of Gondor, Wulf's fate would have been sealed even if he'd killed Fréaláf. At best he might have held onto his father's lands west of the Gap of Rohan, as some of his followers evidently did, if Gondor and the surviving Rohirrim deemed him too weak to be worth the cost in blood and treasure to pursue, but I doubt it.

---

* At least, that's what it looks like to me, but Appendix A doesn't state this and actually makes Wulf's invasion sound like opportunism: "the Dunlendings seeing their chance [because of the Corsairs' attack on Gondor] came over the Isen and down from Isengard. It was soon known that Wulf was their leader." But that seems unlikely since we're told in the very next sentence that they linked up with a landing force that had been sent all the way around the Cape of Andrast to reach the River Isen.


(This post was edited by Eldy on Dec 23 2024, 5:51am)


Eldy
Dor-Lomin


Dec 23 2024, 5:43am

Post #9 of 14 (7270 views)
Shortcut
LOL // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Felagund
Mithlond


Jan 2 2025, 6:10pm

Post #10 of 14 (6938 views)
Shortcut
the worst king treats with the worst vassal, on the cusp of the worst possible time [In reply to] Can't Post

Coming late to this excellent post and thread, apologies. And many thanks for the shout-out to the Kin-strife essay! My 3-parter essay on the Dunlendings might be of interest here too: postcards from the edge: Dunland & the Dunlendings :)

I've long read Helm and Freca coming to blows and the subsequent events as a proxy for the faultline that runs through the founding of the Kingdom of Rohan. The feigned historians involved, although not challenging the legitimacy of that foundation do sometimes acknowledge that the Dunlendings are bearing a centuries-old grudge stemming from their displacement from the western parts of what was then Gondor's Calenardhon province. What became known as the Westfold became the fulcrum of that grievance.

What the Helm vs Freca vignette does is reinforce / re-tell the ethnic tensions that run through this displacement / foundation story. As Eldy remarked, Helm goes for what is clearly an ethnic slur or trope, when insulting Freca as a 'Dunlending'. Where this episode differs is in the consequences for the Rohirrim: for the first time, the Eorlingas are defeated in force by the Dunlendings and their allies (at the Crossings of the Isen), and expelled from their capital, Edoras. A king, albeit an usurper, sits in Meduseld who the Dunlendings actually support - although it's worth noting that Wulf, or at least Freca, claimed descent and legitimacy from Rohan's fifth king, Fréawine.

As for the specifics, not only does Helm lean right into the ethnic trope, he behaves more like a thug than a king who's dynasty had reigned for nine generations and presumably could rely on more than just the violent, very personal settling of slights, I reckon. He literally wants to assert his authority through a one-punch brawl that pretty much guarantees another round of conflict - unless Wulf can be captured, executed or otherwise permanently exiled.

Your analysis, noWiz, provides a great piece of balance to the above. Freca is being more than boorish: he's turned up to the king's own house with a big retinue - overweening grandiosity is at least implied; is proposing a marriage alliance for which the path doesn't appear to well-prepared; and 'reviles' the king in front of his own council when he doesn't get the answer he wants. And the back-drop to this is that Freca only turns up to the council "when it pleased him". As you say, we have a marcher-lord and magnate who is behaving in a way that's going to cause any king to consider a cutting down to size. Where Helm errs, in my view, is that even if he didn't intend to murder Freca, the very public and violent nature of Helm's version of 'cutting down to size', followed up by declaring Freca's entire household to be "the king's enemies", ie. outlaws, suddenly purges the west marches of its ruling elite. As Eldy noted, Freca's rule and footprint in the west marches isn't a flash in the pan - local sympathy for Freca runs on for another 250 years. At the very least, Helm can reasonably expect local discontent, if not an uprising - something he seems to realise in that "for at once Helm sent many men riding to the west marches". He readily deploys the 'Dunlending' trope when characterising Freca but, even with sending his men to the west marches to assert his authority, he appears to underestimate the extent to which his actions have exposed Rohan to renewed, and well-organised, Dunlending antipathy.

My head canon edition of all this is that this is a perfect storm of a king who lets his fists do the talking while reeling off ethnic slurs, and a marcher-lord who has got way too big for his boots but doesn't seem to factor in that a reckoning is only a matter of time. Put the two of them together and we get two leaders who are incapable of resolving a very real but arguably manageable crisis. And the crises escalate, once ill-fortune in turn hits all the main players - a slaying, an uprising, a multi-front invasion, the harshest of winters. Everyone is brought low at some point by the chain of events. And the ending merely underscores where things were at the beginning of the story: that a part of the population of western Rohan and their near neighbours in Dunland have not got over the granting of 'their' lands by Cirion to Eorl, centuries earlier. And the Eorlingas, no matter how many times they beat down or beat back the Dunlendings or those of Dunlendish descent, are inevitably going to have to face another round at some point.

A final note. The Helm and Freca story reminds us that the historic Dunlending band of settlement was not merely a story of a people being driven off into what became Dunland, punctuated by generations of re-occupation of the northern reaches of the Westfold, whenever the writ of Meduseld ran weak. The west marches between the Isen and the Adorn and Freca's push beyond the borders of Rohan, as established by Cirion, south of the Adorn also constituted a part of this band, some 150 miles south of Dunland.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


noWizardme
Gondolin


Jan 3 2025, 9:54am

Post #11 of 14 (6897 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for this - some replies! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for joining us, Felagund. I hoped that you would.


I'm sorry to say I competely forgot that you wrote those posts about Dunland. Thanks for linking to the first one - good stuff.


I agree that Helm and Freca totally mess things up between them. Realistic wooden-headedness from leaders, I think. (I'm taking that term "wooden-headedness" from The March of Folly, by Barbara W. Tuchman. T's a popular history book that I have enjoyed very much and found insightful My quick-and-dirty definition is that this is about historical figures who totally fail to see a problem or threat that you'd think would be obvious to anyone thinking rationally). In this case, as you say, Helm is failing to deal with an increasingly threatening marcher lord in any defusing sort of way, and Freca is failing to see that if he keeps pushing boundaries the king will push back). The inability to back down once things do start going catastrophic is also something - over-confidene abotu the ability to handle things, perhaps? Or just not thinking?

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


noWizardme
Gondolin


Jan 3 2025, 1:00pm

Post #12 of 14 (6892 views)
Shortcut
More replies! power vacuum! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to do this in episodes - some work being done on my house this morning & I decided to post what I'd aaready done before the power & internet went off. But now we're back.

Power vacuum


In Reply To

Where Helm errs, in my view, is that even if he didn't intend to murder Freca, the very public and violent nature of Helm's version of 'cutting down to size', followed up by declaring Freca's entire household to be "the king's enemies", ie. outlaws, suddenly purges the west marches of its ruling elite.


Yes, that sudden power vacuum can’t have helped sort things out peacefully, can it? And Tuchman's thoughts about wooden-headedness certainly include that leaders can find it hard to back down. Admitting a mistake or altering a course of action is often avoided because of fears of looking weak.

Still thinking of this in English Medieval terms (and still noting that all appeals to real history are just plain dodgy: someone can say that another period is the relevant comparison; or argue about what my chosen one was like; or quite rightly point out that this is a tale and Tolkien isn’t bound to make it “realistic”. That last point might especially apply to a three-paragraph footnote: possibly Tolkien didn’t think out everything that might occur to the enthusiastic feigned historian.)

But, thinking of this in English Medieval terms... possibly from a legal oint if view Wulf is now a traitor whose lands and titles are forfeit to the crown. Helm could appoint a new Lord immediately. Plum estate; there would be many eager takers, you'd think. Tolkien does not say whether that happened, but perhaps it is unlikely that Freca's old lands had a For Sale sign up for the four years after Freca's killing.

Making a good nob of being Freca's replacement might be hard though. I can easily imagine the new Lord making a cackhanded attempt at stamping his and Helm’s authority on a restive region, and only really achieving the stoking of sympathy for Wulf and his future invasion. Ethnic tensions could easily exacerbate this. We don't hear from Tolkien how any new Lord was received by the lower ranking nobility of the West March, or the local people.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 3 2025, 1:01pm)


noWizardme
Gondolin


Jan 5 2025, 12:42pm

Post #13 of 14 (6864 views)
Shortcut
"Dunlending!" -- I'd like to return to something I think I skirted round a bit in my OP. [In reply to] Can't Post

First, Felagund's admirable backgrounder:


In Reply To
I've long read Helm and Freca coming to blows and the subsequent events as a proxy for the faultline that runs through the founding of the Kingdom of Rohan. The feigned historians involved, although not challenging the legitimacy of that foundation do sometimes acknowledge that the Dunlendings are bearing a centuries-old grudge stemming from their displacement from the western parts of what was then Gondor's Calenardhon province. What became known as the Westfold became the fulcrum of that grievance.

What the Helm vs Freca vignette does is reinforce / re-tell the ethnic tensions that run through this displacement / foundation story. As Eldy remarked, Helm goes for what is clearly an ethnic slur or trope, when insulting Freca as a 'Dunlending'. Where this episode differs is in the consequences for the Rohirrim: for the first time, the Eorlingas are defeated in force by the Dunlendings and their allies (at the Crossings of the Isen), and expelled from their capital, Edoras. A king, albeit an usurper, sits in Meduseld who the Dunlendings actually support - although it's worth noting that Wulf, or at least Freca, claimed descent and legitimacy from Rohan's fifth king, Fréawine.

As for the specifics, not only does Helm lean right into the ethnic trope, he behaves more like a thug than a king who's dynasty had reigned for nine generations and presumably could rely on more than just the violent, very personal settling of slights, I reckon. He literally wants to assert his authority through a one-punch brawl that pretty much guarantees another round of conflict - unless Wulf can be captured, executed or otherwise permanently exiled.


What exactly does Helm mean by "Dunlending" when he pulls Freca away to punch him and says:


Quote
“Now, Dunlending,” said the king, “you have only Helm to deal with, alone and unarmed. But you have said much already, and it is my turn to speak. Freca, your folly has grown with your belly....


I can only come to one conclusion (same one as Felagund and others): "Dunlending" reads as a slur or insult. And it could not work in that way unless a there is some sort of feeling- among some folks at least in that place and time - that a "Dunlending" is a bad thing to be.

(Being able only to come to one conclusion may be my limitations rather than this being the only conclusion reachable - I would be interested to read any well-argued alternatives.)

Next step: the probably unanswerable question of whether Helm is an angry and rather stupid man just finding any words he can to wound. Or whether he is finally saying a quiet bit out loud - that is, quite aside from any things Freca has done or is suspected of, Helm can't bear the thought of a "Dunlending" -- any Dunlending -- as an in-law.

I'm reminded of another very angry and entitled person (Lobelia's parting shot to Frodo, when she has failed to fault his legal title to Bag End):


Quote
'You don't belong here; you're no Baggins - you - you're a Brandybuck!'

'Did you hear that, Merry? That was an insult, if you like,' said Frodo as he shut the door on her.

'It was a compliment,' said Merry Brandybuck, 'and so, of course, not true.'

- A Long Expected Party


In that passage, readers are probably being invited to think back to Chapter 1 in which we learn that Hobbiton folk sometimes regard Bucklanders as "queer" (and we later discover a reverse sentiment - Farmer Maggot thinks Hobbiton folk are "queer" too). My reading is that Tolkien plays this as amusingly foolish rustic parochialism. Lobelia's meaning is quite clear though: very obviously she feels Bilbo has wronged her, and either her gripe is sincerely that Bilbo has wrongly bequeathed Bag End to a less Bagginsy person, or it's the best zinger she can come up with before storming off.

I am not of course suggesting the "Dunlending" slur is as ridiculous and as easily laughed off as the "Brandybuck" one. Bag End is not an estate on what was formerly Brandybuck land; and hobbit families do not pursue their claims by warfare. Both factors that Tolkien is clear do apply to the situation on Rohan/Dunland.

So one reading is that Helm is stooping to a stupid and ill-considered insult. He seems the type.

But, as I've said, another reading I've seen aired in the Fandom seems entirely reasonable to me -- that Helm can't bear the thought of a "Dunlending" -- any Dunlending --as an in-law. Of course this prejudice could exist alongside reasonable or unreasonable qualms about Freca's individual character, behaviour and so on.

Next step: There is an applicability here. We must surely all be aware of people who would not tolerate an x -- any x -- as an in-law. Substitute x with a term for skin colur, religion, social status, class or caste, nationality or many other things and it has various names in the Primary world. "Bigot" would be the catch-all term, I think, if we want to imagine Helm in this way. I don't think we have enough text support to understand how the Rohirrim and Dunlendings see each other and to work out for sure which ore-specific term for bigotry would be most appropriate. That's a matter of reader preference if we are dealing with applicabilities, and a matter of guesswork if we are trying to reconstruct what Tolkien may have been thinking *if indeed we're on the right track here at all).


Next step: Is this bigotry just Helm, or is it general? The feigned-history that Tolkien gives us --'empty' land granted for Rohirric settlement despite the Dunlendings having a prior claim -- also has applicability. There are many Primary-world occasions where that has happened (or is sincerely believed by some to have happened). And these situations can lead to the settler group monopolising power, justifying this with ideas of superiority and enforcing the system with violence or other forms of opression as deemed necessary to remain "on top". Is that what the situation around Helm and Freca is? Possibly -- though I think we lack direct text support? -- the intermarriage that is in Freca's family tree is widely regarded with nervousness and distaste by a bigoted Rohirric court and king, who keep the Dunlendings down as an underclass as much as they can.

Or not. But if so, then Felagund is right that what Helm achieves is to realise an actual and potent Dunlending rebellion, revolt or "War of Independence" - these things are always called by more than one name, according to the historian's perspective!


I think it is interesting that Tolkien includes enough that readers can understand or sympathise with the Dunlending "grudge", if they are so inclined. One of the many ways in which his story is has the heft of real history (history when you get beyond the simplest or most partisan accounts, that is) and is not just 'goodies versus baddies'.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Jan 5 2025, 4:58pm

Post #14 of 14 (6856 views)
Shortcut
Freca as Dunlending [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, by emphasizing Freca's (alleged) Dunlending heritage, King Helm is stating that he is not a true Man of Rohan. It might not technically be an ethnic slur but it is most definitely an insult. Helm was certainly a strong king, but not a particularly wise or diplomatic one.

“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 5 2025, 4:59pm)

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.