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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 4 2024, 12:40am
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Merry Discussion II: character development, Bree to Rivendell.
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Merry sees a Black Rider and meets Strider at Bree, and Merry travels to Rivendell: character development, including that revealed by interactions with Gandalf and Elrond.
- At the end of "Fog on the Barrowdowns," Merry tell Sam and the others of his knowledge of Bree and its suitability—some leadership showing again?
“‘There are Hobbits in Bree,’ said Merry, ‘as well as Big Folk. I daresay it will be homelike enough. The Pony is a good inn by all accounts. My people ride out there now and again.’” (Possibly for this reason, from early in the Prancing Pony chapter: “There was Bree-blood in the Brandybucks by all accounts.”) After supper, three of them go into the public room, but Merry stays behind and says he’s is going to sit by the fire and maybe step outside later; and leaderish–ly gives the others some warnings. Pippin then warns him in turn that inside is safer. For once Pippin is the one showing wisdom and caution! But I also see it as the usual give-and-take among hobbits of the same class, I think. Even someone who has something of the role of a leader can't lord it over his equals and continue to get along with them. Thoughts?
- Towards the end of the Strider chapter, Merry dashed in, gasping out that he'd seen the Black Riders in the village. He describes having the sensation that "something horrible was creeping near: there was a sort of deeper shade among the shadows across the road, just beyond the edge of the lamp light. It slid away at once into the dark without a sound. There was no horse."
Interesting that he mentioned no horse. What might he—or Tolkien—have had in mind? After Strider questions him, he describes following the vague sort of shadow he had seen. He followed it "around the corner and on as far as the last house on the Road," and was rewarded with both a compliment and a warning from Strider: "you have a stout heart," he said; "but it was foolish." What other time or times, I would think mostly in the future, was Merry both of those things, either separately or at the same time? "I don't know, "said Merry. "Neither brave nor silly, I think. I could hardly help myself. I seem to be drawn somehow. Anyway, I went, and suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I couldn't hear a word that was said. I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over. Then I felt terrified, and I turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I . . . I fell over." After this, Nob describes finding him lying in the road, seeing, apparently, two men stooping over something and lifting it. He shouted at them but only found Merry when he got to the spot. “‘I thought I had fallen into deep water,’ he says to me, when I shook him.’” Merry goes on to say: "I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me." "I do," said Strider. "The black breath." How does this relate to our discussion of the black breath in our Faramir and Eowyn posts? Does this track with the sorts of dreams, and with the despair and depression that people suffered with after encountering the Nazgul during the war in Gondor? As the chapter goes on, Merry appears still confident and irrepressible even after his harrowing and somewhat humiliating experience. He stays awake to ask information from Strider, and seems to be back to his old self: “‘Jumped over the Moon!’ Chuckled Merry as he rolled himself in his blanket. ‘Very ridiculous of you, Frodo! But I wish I had been there to see. The worthies of Bree will be discussing it 100 years hence.’” What might this show about his character and resilience? Is it simply naïveté, or is he truly “tough in fibre” as was said later by Warden of the Houses of Healing, referencing all hobbits (but with only Merry as an example)?
- Starting in the Knife in the Dark chapter, Merry and Pippin come second in the procession, after Strider and Frodo, as they left Bree, and Sam was last leading Bill the pony. Sam shows his own brand of confidence and initiative in taking on Bill Ferny with an apple (sort of a satisfying moment! Sam is a warrior after all, despite his protestations later, on the way to Rivendell).
After this, Merry is not heard from again until they are well on the way to Weathertop, where he comments that the stones of the path reminded him of his episode in the barrow. I find it interesting that he recognized the same type of building stone and style. Does this show more than just intellectual curiosity? Does his status as a scion of Brandybuck bring with it an interest in more than just plain Hobbit practicality? Sam and Pippin stay with the pony and Frodo and Merry climbed Weathertop with Strider. Does this show that Merry is considered and still considers himself part of the leadership group? They all converse and theorize as they stand on the top. Merry seems unusually negative, if not depressed: “‘Well, here we are! said Merry. ‘And very cheerless and uninviting it looks! There is no water and no shelter. And no sign of Gandalf. But I don't blame him for not waiting–if he ever came here." And later on “‘How far is it to Rivendell?’ asked Merry, gazing round wearily. The world looked wild and wide from Weathertop.” Where has Merry's confidence gone? As an aside, when Strider suggests building a fire, Sam again shows a small streak of independence–at least in his thinking although he doesn't dare to say it entirely out loud: “‘Maybe, ' muttered Sam. ‘It is also as good away of saying "here we are" as I can think of, bar shouting.'"
- Once again, it's Merry's turn when he and Sam had walked away from the fire, to catch a first glimpse of a night-time Nazgul: “‘I saw something,’ said Merry ‘or I thought I did–away westwards where the moonlight was falling on the flats beyond the the shadow of the hilltops, I thought [emphasis in original] there were two or three black shapes. They seem to be moving this way.’”
Does this show that Merry is more alert, vigilant, and also more responsible in a broader sense than Sam and possibly in every sense than Pippin—in other words still possessed of a leaders personality, if not so much anymore the opportunity? Or is it because he's encountered them before and was more sensitive to their presence? Both? Neither? But after that, it's Sam and Frodo who seem to show the most courage, although it's put somewhat ambiguously regarding Frodo, since he was suddenly tempted by the Ring. it says that Sam shrank against Frodo—I’m wondering if this is protectiveness of/toward Frodo, or a desire to be protected by the person he trusted the most? But at any rate those two weren't overcome to the point of simply hitting the dirt like Merry and Pippin were. What does this show about Merry's limitations? Or is it really more about relationships when the crunch comes?
- Next, we see Strider choosing Merry to survey the country in the Flight to the Ford chapter.
Is this a fairly random choice, or after Merry’s spotting of the Nazgul from Weathertop, does Strider think that Merry has some thing of a gift for scanning terrain at a distance and spotting things others might miss? And again, when they encounter the troll–hole, it's Strider and Merry who go in first. Do you think Strider chose Merry for this initial foray, or was it simply natural for Merry to want to go in first before the other Hobbits?
- Once in Rivendell, we don't see very much of Merry until The Ring Goes South chapter. The Hobbits are all holding their own meeting in Bilbo's room, and Merry and Pippin were "indignant when they heard that Sam had crept into the council, and had been chosen as Frodo's companion."
Were they angry with Sam and Elrond both, or just with Elrond/powers that be? Merry appears at least initially as the spokesman for the Merry-and-Pippin duo: “‘ . . . But we are envying Sam, not you,’” he says, when Frodo notes that it's more of a punishment than reward for Sam under the circumstances. “‘If you have to go, then it will be a punishment for any of us to be left behind, even in Rivendell. We have come along way with you and been through some stiff times. We want to go on." Does this show both leadership and courage at this point? Later on, in the days leading up to their next journey, the Hobbits divvy themselves up into Merry and Pippin, who it says "were out and about," and Frodo and Sam spending time mostly with Bilbo in his room, largely in literary pursuits. Is this a natural circumstance to come about, based on mutual interests among each set? Or is there some other reason? Oddly, we are not given any direct mention of Merry interacting in Rivendell itself with either Gandalf—except for this brief question and answer: "'I am afraid it will,' said Gandalf. 'We can't start until we have found out about the Riders.''I thought they were all destroyed in the flood,' said Merry. 'You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,' said Gandalf”—or Elrond, other than as the member of a group. Nevertheless, without Gandalf’s support, Elrond would have appointed Merry and Pippin as leaders in their own right, to go back and warn the Shire inhabitants. They might have, or they might not have, shone in that role, but it seems to me that the character growth we see throughout the books would have little or no chance of taking shape, even if they eventually took charge of the resistance to Lotho and Sharkey Even if significant changes may not be apparent, the adventures and challenges of his journey with the others from the old forest onward must have made their mark. Is it likely that this early "baptism of fire" has begun to grow both his courage and competence, possibly even just in seed form, preparing him for his further adventures, and eventually for his final Nazgul encounter? Is it significant, also, that it is Merry all along who keeps finding, spotting, or encountering various and sundry Ringwraiths? In summary, does it appear that Merry evolves or in any way changes as a person, or is he the same person reacting to sets of circumstances which he has never encountered before?
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Meneldor
Doriath

Dec 4 2024, 4:46am
Post #2 of 22
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A Question, or maybe 2, or even 3, 4 tops
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Did JRRT ever identify which Wraith Merry encountered in Bree? Might it have been Angmar? "I could hardly help myself. I seem to be drawn somehow." How does that differ from his moment of crawling up behind the Witchking at Pelennor with malice aforethought? Could it be deliberately foreshadowing Merry's crowning moment of awesome?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Dec 4 2024, 4:35pm
Post #3 of 22
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I have to watch myself not to take this too far
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Merry is more than one shining moment of underdog glory, but I tend to read most of his arc as buildup. And certainly this! It never occurred to me before the outstanding initial post here (I hope to respond more) that it may have been critical to Merry’s later success that he has felt the Black Breath before. He’s able to resist it and drag his head above water.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 5 2024, 2:54am
Post #4 of 22
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1. I don't personally know if Tolkien ever identified which wraith this was, other than it seems unlikely to me for it to be the Witch King, if only because there didn't seem to be a high enough level of power or influence operating. It seems to me that Nob would have been overcome rather than apparently causing Merry to be left behind. 2. Personally, I think there was some kind of Nazgulian influence being used on Merry to tempt him to follow them and get into their power. However, if he had been a coward, it might have been easier for him to resist, because I'm sure that his innate boldness and curiosity would have caused him to at least consider trying to find out what they were up to, making the temptation that much easier. 3. I think it differs because he was certainly his own agent when he made the decision to go after the Witch-king. Based on the way Tolkien portrayed divine influence, if something like that was going on with Merry when he was deciding to attack, he would still be left master of his own will, unlike the "deceptions of the enemy." 4. Not really sure. Perhaps as the negative of a photo compared to the positive?
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 5 2024, 2:58am
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" . . . felt the Black Breath before. He’s
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able to resist it and drag his head above water." I wouldn't be at all surprised if that had something to do with it. And, yes to the buildup. And quite a bit of it could be described as open (accidental) training.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Dec 5 2024, 3:27am
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I particularly like to focus on Merry and the Black Breath and encounter with the Nazgul and what it means with his dreams.
How does this relate to our discussion of the black breath in our Faramir and Eowyn posts? Does this track with the sorts of dreams, and with the despair and depression that people suffered with after encountering the Nazgul during the war in Gondor? I think it relates to all that had happened with Faramir and Eowyn and the peoples of GoNdor being inflicted by the Nazgul . A feeling of despair and darkness soon overcome their hearts and their minds. Psychologically, anyone who come close to those beings feel depressed and lose hope. I did mention in the prior thread about Merry how significant it is that Merry out of all hobbits get a first taste of the evils of Mordor and it is even more significant is that it is he who helps slay the Witch-king eventually. I do not think that Tolkien meant that as a coincidence.
For once Pippin is the one showing wisdom and caution! But I also see it as the usual give-and-take among hobbits of the same class, I think. Even someone who has something of the role of a leader can't lord it over his equals and continue to get along with them. I always thought Pippin has leadership qualities about him as well and he is one who is always caring of Merry and looking after him. We see that here and also in "The Uruk-hai" chapter which is my personal favorite for we see Pippin at his best. (If we ever discuss Pippin we must mention that)
What other time or times, I would think mostly in the future, was Merry both of those things, either separately or at the same time? When he mentioned in the Houses of Healing that he wanted his pipe and Aragorn replied that it was right next to him. And then he said one of my fave quotes "It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots, and the soil of the Shire is deep. Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not. " But we will revisit that part when time comes because you do see his growth and maturity, and it'll be fun to see in what ways he stays the same and in what ways he grows and from which experiences.
What might this show about his character and resilience? Is it simply naïveté, or is he truly “tough in fibre” as was said later by Warden of the Houses of Healing, referencing all hobbits (but with only Merry as an example)? All hobbits show resilience after tough experiences. We see Frodo recovering from the Barrow and moving on and even from the knife wound inflicted by the Witch-king and bore the wound for 18 days and still moved on with the Quest. WE see Sam moving on after thinking Frodo is dead at the end of Two Towers in Shelob and we see Pippin with his unquenchable cheerfulness which defines him. So Merry being able to shake off the Black Breath encounter quite soon and joke about Frodo's singing Cow and the Moon is quite hobbitish. We also see other times Merry is resilient and "tough of fiber" as evidenced in his adventures with Old Man Willow and the Barrow as well. More later!
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Dec 5 2024, 3:29am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 7 2024, 1:08am
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Perhaps one does get more resistance to the black breath
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if you have encountered and survived it before. But on the other hand multiple exposers could make you weaker. Maybe it depends on who you are, youre spirit and maybe the dfference between been a man or hobbit.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 8 2024, 2:59am
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That's a wonderful moment. And a telling quote "Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not." This echoes what Aragorn said at the Council, and although Merry wasn't there, he may have heard about it. Either way, this is in his own voice – I think he's internalized the truth of this, and he both is and will be one of the number who helps rescue and then preserve the gaffers and their gardens.
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oliphaunt
Menegroth

Dec 10 2024, 12:46am
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Even someone who has something of the role of a leader can't lord it over his equals and continue to get along with them. Thoughts? After events in the Old Forest with Old Man Willow and the Barrow Downs, I'm surprised Merry wants to go outside alone. I can understand skipping a visit to the tap-room, but wandering about at night? After things went sideways in the Old Forest, I thought Merry might have realized he's overestimated his abilities a bit. But maybe he's still got a lesson to learn about caution?
Interesting that he mentioned no horse. What might he—or Tolkien—have had in mind? Back at the ferry crossing in Buckland, there was a similar event:
....it looked like a dark black bundle left behind. But as they looked it seemed to move and sway this way and that, as it searching the ground. It then crawled, or went crouching, back into the gloom beyond the lamps. I guess when black riders aren't riding they creep along sniffing the ground.
What other time or times, I would think mostly in the future, was Merry both of those things, either separately or at the same time? Is Merry both brave and foolish? I agree with Strider that Merry is not lacking for bravery, but needs to learn caution. Although all turned out well thanks to Tom Bombadil, Merry did lead the hobbits right down to the Withywindle. He'd lived next to the Old Forest, and had been though the hedge, and thought he was prepared to lead the hobbits through. in Bree, he follows the black figure: . I could hardly help myself. I seem to be drawn somehow. Note that Merry is rescued by Nob, a servant class hobbit (like Sam). He's unconscious, and claims: 'I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me.' 'I do,' said Strider. 'The black breath.' This both previews the Nazgul's power and hearkens back to Merry's curiosity about the Ring and his dream in the barrow. Merry recovers quickly from his sniff of the black breath. Is this a hobbit super-power? Bilbo was able to resist the influence of the Ring. Speaking of the Ring, I wonder if Merry is "drawn somehow" to it? He spied on both Bilbo and Frodo. Yes, he was curious and concerned, but was he influenced by the Ring?
Merry is not heard from again until they are well on the way to Weathertop, where he comments that the stones of the path reminded him of his episode in the barrow. I find it interesting that he recognized the same type of building stone and style. Does this show more than just intellectual curiosity? Does his status as a scion of Brandybuck bring with it an interest in more than just plain Hobbit practicality? Or did Merry absorb memories of the barrow wight? "Ah! The spear in my heart!"
Sam and Pippin stay with the pony and Frodo and Merry climbed Weathertop with Strider. Does this show that Merry is considered and still considers himself part of the leadership group? I think Strider saw qualities in Merry that he wanted to train/encourage.
And later on “‘How far is it to Rivendell?’ asked Merry, gazing round wearily. The world looked wild and wide from Weathertop.” Where has Merry's confidence gone? Merry is realizing that he is not as competent as he might have thought himself back in the Shire.
Does this show that Merry is more alert, vigilant, and also more responsible in a broader sense than Sam and possibly in every sense than Pippin—in other words still possessed of a leaders personality, if not so much anymore the opportunity? Or is it because he's encountered them before and was more sensitive to their presence? Both? Neither? I agree this is telling that Merry sees the black riders first. He is observant, and "sensitive" perhaps, to the black riders and the Ring.
Next, we see Strider choosing Merry to survey the country in the Flight to the Ford chapter. Is this a fairly random choice, or after Merry’s spotting of the Nazgul from Weathertop, does Strider think that Merry has some thing of a gift for scanning terrain at a distance and spotting things others might miss? And again, when they encounter the troll–hole, it's Strider and Merry who go in first. Do you think Strider chose Merry for this initial foray, or was it simply natural for Merry to want to go in first before the other Hobbits? Pretty sure Strider is doing what he can to train Merry. Strider is an expert at tracking and surviving in the wild, and he sees potential in Merry.
Merry and Pippin were "indignant when they heard that Sam had crept into the council, and had been chosen as Frodo's companion." Were they angry with Sam and Elrond both, or just with Elrond/powers that be? Ha! A bit of both. Merry was 'in charge' of the conspiracy in the Shire, not Sam. And then Sam is valued more highly by Elrond.
Later on, in the days leading up to their next journey, the Hobbits divvy themselves up into Merry and Pippin, who it says "were out and about," and Frodo and Sam spending time mostly with Bilbo in his room, largely in literary pursuits. Is this a natural circumstance to come about, based on mutual interests among each set? Or is there some other reason? Both Elrond and Gandalf recognized that Sam was not detachable from Frodo. Merry and Pippin, though great friends with Frodo, were not the same as Sam.
Is it likely that this early "baptism of fire" has begun to grow both his courage and competence, possibly even just in seed form, preparing him for his further adventures, and eventually for his final Nazgul encounter? Is it significant, also, that it is Merry all along who keeps finding, spotting, or encountering various and sundry Ringwraiths? In summary, does it appear that Merry evolves or in any way changes as a person, or is he the same person reacting to sets of circumstances which he has never encountered before? Merry is a trustworthy friend, a competent planner, curious and observant, and brave. He's been "drawn" or influenced by the Ring, by the barrow wight, and by the Nazgul. So he senses things beyond the physically obvious. Strider thinks Merry has awareness in the wild. Merry has taken blows to his self-confidence in the Old Forest, in Bree and on Weathertop. He is determined to continue on with Frodo, regardless, and puts friendship above all other concerns. We shall see what he learns from his mistakes, and if he builds on his strengths.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Dec 10 2024, 3:33am
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I feel like MErry is weary like the others
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Merry is realizing that he is not as competent as he might have thought himself back in the Shire. Because the Flight to the Ford captured the weariness and worry of the hobbits- at this point they are scared not only of the Ring-wraiths but also of Frodo's ailing health so i wouldn't blame Merry or any of the hobbits to feel the lowest they've felt during the whole time from the Shire to Rivendell.
Merry has taken blows to his self-confidence in the Old Forest, in Bree and on Weathertop. He is determined to continue on with Frodo, regardless, and puts friendship above all other concerns. We shall see what he learns from his mistakes, and if he builds on his strengths. It is interesting that you mention that he had blows at all these points in the early journey yet in Rivendell he had a chance to turn back with Pippin to the Shire but he did not. Why did he move on? Incredible loyalty to Frodo? But as Elrond mentioned, the Shire was not free of evils that Sauron may wrought. Wasn't he scared of worse things to come? Wasn't he afraid of what may happen to the Shire? Is his thinking practical or looming on the emotional in his attachment to Frodo?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Dec 10 2024, 3:38am
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Does this show both leadership and courage at this point? Or does moving on make him seem foolish for what would happen to the Shire. I wonder if him or Pippin ever regretted not going back to the Shire. We know that Sam looking at Galadriel's mirror knew that some evils woudl be at work but Merry and Pippin in this evolution seem more sure of themselves but would they be guilty of not returning when they had a chance?
In summary, does it appear that Merry evolves or in any way changes as a person, or is he the same person reacting to sets of circumstances which he has never encountered before? Perhaps Merry's decision to move on in Rivendell was through only loyalty and worry for Frodo and his encounters in the first half of Book 1 only made him mature and gain confidence that he could face whatever may happen. We do learn in "The Uruk-hai" chapter that he spent time looking at maps of Middle-earth so knew what was beyond Rivendell. I wonder if he had a chance would he go to Mordor with Frodo and how that would pan out. IN the "Breaking of the Fellowship" we do see and Pippin loathe to go to Mordor when Aragorn presented Mordor versus Gondor option. However if the Fellowship did not break, i think he would follow Frodo into Mordor as well.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Dec 10 2024, 3:40am
Post #12 of 22
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It is indeed one of my favorite Merry quotes!
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It's just something so wise that he said and it shows his growth throughout the journey he has been on. We can speak more of it when we reach that section.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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oliphaunt
Menegroth

Dec 10 2024, 10:20pm
Post #13 of 22
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Or does moving on make him seem foolish for what would happen to the Shire...would they be guilty of not returning when they had a chance? When Elrond and Gandalf disagreed about sending Merry and Pippin with Frodo, the hobbits would surely have trusted Gandalf's opinion over Elrond's. And they are certainly owed no blame for Saruman's assault on the Shire. Had Merry and Pippin not travelled south from Rivendell with Frodo, Saurman may not have been dispossessed of Orthanc and headed to the Shire. But far worse things than Sharkey and his thugs would have come to the Shire eventually, and there would have been no defense.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond

Dec 11 2024, 3:41am
Post #14 of 22
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I was just thinking in a "what if" case in which the events of Book 1 can possibly affect Merry in a negative way to dissuade him from moving forth. Of course his loyalty to Frodo moved him forward and we know that he has many events to alter and change for the better.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo "And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series "He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin
Dec 11 2024, 4:20pm
Post #15 of 22
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At this time, I am unable to organize thoughts but be assured that this mostly lurker is pondering and considering Merry's character. Briefly -- both he and Pippin will become the leaders of their clans in the Shire and it appears that Merry has taken the training that surely was taking place a bit more to heart than Pippin. Regarding regrets for not returning to the Shire from Rivendell -- while the Shire suffered under Saruman due to this decision it undoubtedly would have suffered even more if the Ents had not marched to Isengard and Merry and Pippin were the pebbles that set off that avalanche. (Then there's also the salvation of Faramir and the defeat of the Witch King -- so all in all it's a good thing they didn't go back.
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua (Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 12 2024, 2:51am
Post #16 of 22
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"I do not think that Tolkien meant that as a coincidence."
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Me neither! (From your comment here): I did mention in the prior thread about Merry how significant it is that Merry out of all hobbits get a first taste of the evils of Mordor and it is even more significant is that it is he who helps slay the Witch-king eventually. Yes, I noticed the same thing. Interesting how Tolkien manages so many nuances of character-- I always thought Pippin has leadership qualities about him as well and he is one who is always caring of Merry and looking after him. We see that here and also in "The Uruk-hai" chapter which is my personal favorite for we see Pippin at his best. (If we ever discuss Pippin we must mention that)
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 12 2024, 2:56am
Post #17 of 22
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"I think Strider saw qualities in Merry that he wanted to train/encourage."
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I hadn't thought of this before, but I really like that idea, and it is the most fitting explanation, especially since it kept happening. And, yes, learning caution. I don't know if he's exactly impulsive, but more likely to venture where, maybe, Rangers fear to tread!
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Dec 14 2024, 2:34am
Post #18 of 22
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Hoping you can continue lurking, and post if you get a chance. That's something I hadn't really taken into consideration –that both Merry and Pippin would certainly have had at least grooming if not training. But Pippin is the youngest, so possibly that's the explanation of a great many things! Certainly, Merry has taken whatever training or education he's received seriously, and has been putting it to use. The fact that he hasn't done so perfectly, or hasn't had perfect results, doesn't seem to me a lack of training or a lack of effort on his part, but simply what happens when you encounter situations utterly beyond your experience or expectations. I think it's telling that although he certainly showed some discouragement on Weathertop, he never was crushed, or gave any indication of giving up.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 8, 12:28am
Post #19 of 22
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Agreed: "I feel like Merry is weary like the others"
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My take is that Tolkien often uses one character to speak for the group, so while there are surely "Merry-only" moments, I think there are times when any one of them is speaking for all of them, hence the shared fatigue.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 8, 12:42am
Post #20 of 22
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Quote I think it's telling that although he certainly showed some discouragement on Weathertop, he never was crushed, or gave any indication of giving up. I just want to chime in to agree that this is an important point: unrelenting courage and optimism might be heroic but don't make for a suspenseful, harrowing tale, so I think LOTR characters need to occasionally express weariness and dismay, etc, just to show how tough their situations are. But key to them is the fact that they never give up. Frodo periodically wishes he could be back in Rivendell, and Sam wants to go home when he sees the Mirror's visions, and we can safely assume that the same temptations visited Merry and Pippin, but realistically, given how Tolkien developed them, none of them were every going to turn back. Then I just wanted to add: Tooks and Brandybucks were scandalously known as adventure-lovers as if it's in their DNA (Bilbo's Tookishness raised its head periodically in The Hobbit also, for example), so my conclusion is that while M&P largely stuck by Frodo's side out of friendship, loyalty, and duty, they also had a wild streak in them that thrived on adventure that would compel them to go forward. Elrond's plan to send them back to the Shire as messengers seems prescient, but also a little "cute," as if he doesn't understand hobbits at all, but of course Gandalf does.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 8, 12:59am
Post #21 of 22
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I know that's not a very good answer. We used to have History of Middle-earth experts here who would chime in to answer questions like yours. I'm not one of them, but from my hazy memory, I know that Tolkien sketched out some of the Nazgul names and who was where in "The Hunt for the Ring." IIRC, the Wi-King always had a couple cronies with him and stayed encamped somewhere outside Bree, so he never acted alone and was somewhere else anyway when Merry was nearly abducted. While it's tempting to think that Merry came full circle and vanquished a bully from earlier in the book when he was helping Eowyn on the Pelennor Fields, I don't think the book and the background writings support that.
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CuriousG
Gondolin

Feb 8, 1:05am
Post #22 of 22
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3. I think it differs because he was certainly his own agent when he made the decision to go after the Witch-king. Based on the way Tolkien portrayed divine influence, if something like that was going on with Merry when he was deciding to attack, he would still be left master of his own will, unlike the "deceptions of the enemy." Excellent point, Ethel. I'll paste a couple book sections below to highlight the difference. Merry was truly acting on his own vs the Witch-King: no messages from Galadriel or Varda or other Valar, just Merry, alone, hobbit of the Shire.
Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided. The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on him.
Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: ‘Now, now, or it will be too late!’ He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to have felt the call. He struggled to his knees. ‘I’ll crawl, Sam,’ he gasped.
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Feb 8, 1:07am)
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