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noWizardme
Gondolin
Nov 18 2024, 8:02pm
Post #26 of 53
(12538 views)
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I dislike dislikes more than I like likes
[In reply to]
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I agree with DHG that 'likes' can become problematic. I think they are useful when they are a sort of polite applause for good post. They are less good if two posters are getting into a row and are being egged on by how many likes each is getting. Or things like that.
But I agree with Meneldor that there are times when you just want to indicate your enjoyment. Or might have no time right now to reply.
So again, we face the problem that software is no substitute for, or enforcer of, not being a jerk.
I dislike dislikes. That's because while there is such a thing as polite applause, there is no such thing as polite booing.
I don't think that having likes but no dislikes is censoring. That's because disagreement is not the negative version of liking.
Rather I think it is forcing anyone who wants to respond negatively to put into words what their problem is. And really what they should do is to make a counter-argument or refutation; or just express a different point of view when (as is often the case for our subject-matter) there isn't an objectively right or wrong answer.
That sort of reply is essential - many of the best discussions I've seen have resulted from the polite comparison of conflicting points of view. Sometimes I've started out with one point of view and been shown a better one. Or ended up with a richer understanding, that things aren't so simple as I thought.
The negative version of liking seems to me to be different. I think it's the sort of thing that could only be turned into words of intollerance, name-calling, ad hominem attacks or attacks just on tone.
Those "tackle the player not the ball" things shouldn't exist on a healthy discussion site. They should not exist as symbollic checkmarks - which I agree wth DHG are intellectually lazy, if being used as booing. Nor should those things exist in the most beautiful prose.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 18 2024, 8:38pm
Post #27 of 53
(12538 views)
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A while ago young people started saying that someone "is ratioed" when their comment, video, etc. has more dislikes than likes, and that counts as a loss of face to the person who had been ratioed.
But now places such as Youtube have dropped the dislikes while retaining the likes, and the definition of being ratioed has been expanded to include having a low number of likes in comparison to the number of views and having fewer likes than a direct rebuttal to an original comment.
I wouldn't like that have that sort of culture here.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Nov 18 2024, 9:35pm
Post #28 of 53
(12548 views)
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I too have no patience for a culture that sees everything as a sort of wrestling match of opinions, and gets itself stuck in a ratio nelson.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 18 2024, 10:20pm
Post #29 of 53
(12522 views)
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You do have a way with words, NoWiz. :D /
[In reply to]
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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Meneldor
Doriath
Nov 18 2024, 10:28pm
Post #30 of 53
(12534 views)
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I've had an account on a Star Wars forum similar to this one since 1998. It has Likes, but not Dislikes, and I don't see any problems occurring with that system. If anybody is counting their Likes or that of other posters, they must be keeping their thoughts to themselves.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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NottaSackville
Doriath
Nov 19 2024, 1:53am
Post #33 of 53
(12511 views)
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Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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acheron
Mithlond
Nov 19 2024, 4:03am
Post #34 of 53
(12514 views)
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There's a board I'm on that uses Discourse, which is definitely a more modern style. Easy to attach images, etc. Might be worth looking at that. https://www.discourse.org/ appears to be the site for it.
Beyond that, there's the classics of phpBB etc, which probably run as they always have.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Altaira
Superuser
Nov 19 2024, 2:06pm
Post #35 of 53
(12511 views)
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Excellent discussion and suggestions, everyone! Recap inside
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Thanks to everyone for all your suggestions and input. This truly is an amazing group of people. 
Below is a recap of everyone's 'wish list' for new forum functionality. Bear in mind that we probably won't be able to get everything on the list, but at least we have a list to work from which will help ensure we tick as many boxes as we can.
Let me know if I missed something or if you think of something else. Next steps will be to collect a list of some of the suggested software options, as well as some the Admins have discussed. Knowing me, a spreadsheet will eventually be involved. Once we get a feel for some that look promising we can do a deeper dive into 2, 3, or 4 that look good.
Recap of new forum software suggestions- Relatively easy to set up and maintain
- Supported by developers and/or users (open source)
- Preserve this forum’s posts for read-only access and search
- Preserve the former forum’s posts for read-only access and search
- As close as possible to the current forum ‘feel,’ i.e., traditional forum with various sub-forums
- Ability to switch between threaded- and flat-type modes
- Ease of distinguishing who is replying to whom
- Ability to post bigger pictures & easier process to post them if possible
- Ability to post other media, e.g., music, videos
- Retain the private message function
- Retain the email alerts for posts, private messages
- Ability to use special characters in posts
- Longer edit window for posts
- Ignore button (mixed feelings about this)
- Ability to + or thumbs up posts (mixed feelings about this too – no desire for -, or thumbs down
- High character limit per post
- Ability to delete of move sub-threads and leave the bulk of the discussion intact
- Future data export ability
- Bring back the donate button/link
(This post was edited by Altaira on Nov 19 2024, 2:07pm)
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Meneldor
Doriath
Nov 19 2024, 4:55pm
Post #36 of 53
(12482 views)
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Annael
Elvenhome
Nov 21 2024, 5:03pm
Post #38 of 53
(12319 views)
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As I believe shunning is an effective option for dealing with those who never learned the difference between good and bad attention.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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cats16
Gondolin
Nov 22 2024, 8:12pm
Post #39 of 53
(12231 views)
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Firstly, kudos to everyone involved here for what's undoubtedly going to be a lot of volunteer hours - all of TORn's Valar and Maiar showing their true colors. Thanks to all you do and continue to do.
A couple of quick thoughts as a late-replier here, as a non-tech person:
I agree something simple that can be quickly learned & used by non-tech folks would be ideal.
I like the idea of an Ignore (or Mute) button, but perhaps an open question as to whether this is better suited for the Profile level or the Conversation level. Meaning: 1) give User A the option to entirely Mute/Block User B entirely across the forum as long as they wish to, or 2) give User A the option to mute/block User B in a particular conversation for the rest of that thread. Not necessarily advocating for either option, just wanted to present the idea(s). But perhaps #2 could be a kind of compromise, where you're saying "I want to take a break from X person for a bit," without resorting to full blocking.
I'd also suggest the idea of a Save/Bookmark Post feature - the idea being that NoWiz can easily save his treatise on cram in The Hobbit for future reference in his profile without having to keyword search for it somewhere (either across the entire forum or within his post history). Of course, the option to bookmark after having successfully searched for a post is ideal too, as well as while you're reading a new thread. As a result, you'd have a separate Saved/Bookmarked Posts section of your profile: a repository of saved posts, either of one's own or other users.
Generally, one suggestion I have is to look at what elements of a site like Reddit work well across communities (and what wouldn't work as well for TORn). Overall their site is "simple" in a way that's unique compared to most of the modern internet, so perhaps there are things to replicate based on their very user-friendly site, which folks across generations use today. I'm not an active Reddit user, but I can still read posts there and can navigate within conversations easily.
Regarding likes/dislikes, I'm generally of the opinion that a Likes-only model in an anonymous setting should not feel threatening in and of itself, unless the site itself is quite toxic. If we were using our real names/identities, then perhaps it would be a different conversation. Also, since this kind of setup (likes/dislikes/etc) is very common across sites, I think the average TORn user (who tends to be better behaved than the average internet user, to say the least) is probably safe to entrust with a Likes-only model. I also think the benefits of seeing a post with many likes (whether one's own or someone else's) outweighs the fear of a post not getting many likes. Given this site's ToS and moderation, a Likes-only model (IMO) feels like a reasonable way to allow the user base to politely convey its positive feeling towards some posts and silently convey its negative (or neutral or ambivalent) feeling toward other posts.
Off of the above note, I'd suggest a separate Liked Posts section of one's profile too, to allow a user to scroll through the posts they've liked but not Saved/Bookmarked for future reference.
An additional thought is retaining users' post counts from 2007 - 2024 in some way as well as which "Title" (Valinor, The Shire, etc) they achieved. Would the post count need to reset back to 0 for the new site, or could the new site start with whatever post count the user had the moment the current site is archived and add to it from there? If it has to start from 0, perhaps the user's profile could include their info from the 2007 - 2024 boards? "Second Age Statistics," in essence. (I'm not sure if anyone has ever officially designated this as the Second Age of TORn, so apologies if that's not accurate, I'm just using it as a placeholder name - but if it's accurate, it would be fun branding to call the new site TORn's Third Age ).
That's all that's coming to mind on this Friday afternoon, but I'm sure there are many other good ideas out there! And naturally all is dependent on the tech situation for whatever decision is made, so these are just suggestions/thoughts once that situation is known.
Thanks again to all who are working on this.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
(This post was edited by cats16 on Nov 22 2024, 8:19pm)
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2024, 9:13pm
Post #40 of 53
(12214 views)
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As someone who has selected and owned/managed forums, I would favor forum software recommendations only followed by the features you like that it supports. I.e., Start with a software review of recommended packages then weigh the feature list from discussions like this. So, "I suggest [list of forum software] because they support [standard list of features I want] because [what I value in a forum]".
Feature lists on their own otherwise imply custom work that I would completely avoid, other than skinning/styling, because maintenance is hard enough with regular stock software updates. No matter how much enthusiasm there might be going into the project, the extra work of maintaining custom features gets very old very quickly and would drop away.
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Emeldir
Registered User
Nov 23 2024, 11:37pm
Post #41 of 53
(12074 views)
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It has been many years since I posted on this forum. For this reason, I feel my opinion might rightly be consider irrelevant. I am glad to see the conversation is still lively and yet respectful. And I am grateful to the wonderful elves/dwarves etc. that run this site for all that they do.
I do have two thoughts: 1) a donate button is great idea. I was going to ask how I can donate to the cause. 2) I have always seen a Like button as a form of applause at the end of a show. If someone doesn't like a show/performance, they simply don't applaud. No one stands up front and asks if there are any "boos" to be yelled. And booing is considered rude. I don't think I have ever given someone a thumbs down on social media. If I care to indicate my disagreement, I click on reply and state why I disagree.
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Glaurung63
Menegroth
Nov 25 2024, 12:00am
Post #42 of 53
(11671 views)
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I agree with larger picture size
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I just tried posting a pic of me with Sean Astin and it was too large…I am not that tech savy to change anything. I also like the thread format here and hope it stays the same. We can do this!!
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Noria
Hithlum
Nov 26 2024, 7:11pm
Post #43 of 53
(11531 views)
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Late to this discussion because I really have nothing new to add.
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Michelle reminded me that I hadn’t contributed, so here’s my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.
Internet software is an unknown world to me, one I don't care to explore.
I like pretty much all of the suggestions on Altaira’s list.
I use both the threaded and flat views, so the status quo is good for me.
Yes to Like button, no to Dislike. Like is benign, benevolent and self-explanatory. Let those who Dislike post their contrary opinions for discussion. Please, no YouTube down-voting toxicity here.
I never even thought about an Ignore button in the past, but I do get tired of reading “RoP is garbage. The End.”, or “RoP deviates from the text, so it’s trash.” How would Ignore work on a site that allows embedded quotes from other posts? I like that quote feature, even though I sometimes find myself accidentally reading quoted posts that I would normally skip over and ignore.
On the subject of censorship, this site is private property on which we are invited to express our thoughts and opinions courtesy of the owners. It’s their sandbox and they get to make the rules. It’s lovely that users are even being asked about their preferences. Thank you.
The sun yet shines
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 27 2024, 12:56am
Post #44 of 53
(11510 views)
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not because I want to change anyone else's behavior, but just to keep my own blood pressure down.
Though I don't think it's nearly as necessary here as on facebook, where the admins are often robots. Having heroic human beaters of the bounds here makes it so much better.
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GNU Terry Pratchett
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 27 2024, 1:05am
Post #45 of 53
(11514 views)
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[reply] (I'm not sure if anyone has ever officially designated this as the Second Age of TORn, so apologies if that's not accurate, I'm just using it as a placeholder name - but if it's accurate, it would be fun branding to call the new site TORn's Third Age [:)]).
[/reply]
Back in the day, the First Age on TORn was before the FotR movie came out, the Second age was between the FotR and TTT movies, the Third age was between the TTT and RotK movies, and the Fourth Age was after the RotK movie.
But that's so long ago it probably doesn't matter at all except to some of us old timers. (I was a First Ager, but just barely.) So I have no problem with coming up with more relevant definitions. [:)]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Nov 27 2024, 1:06am)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 29 2024, 4:08pm
Post #46 of 53
(11335 views)
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For what it is worth. We use phpBB at thehallfoffire, which seems to work well. We have like buttons but no dislike buttons, the latter of which I would strongly oppose. We have an ignore feature which almost no one uses (to my knowledge), but which might come more in handy here. We have unlimited editing windows, which some people don't like (but I do). We can much more easily attach images and video files, which I personally like a lot.
Mostly I just wanted to express my gratitude and appreciate for all of the effort that all the folks here at TORN have offered over the years.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Nov 29 2024, 4:10pm)
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Dec 19 2024, 6:22pm
Post #47 of 53
(10274 views)
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Thank you, Altaira, Calisuri, greendragon, and everyone who has kept TORn so “well-preserved “! I have little to add, and don’t visit enough for my opinion to carry weight. I agree with having flat/threaded options if possible, including “likes” and putting the Donate button on there. I see posts on Facebook and don’t interact very much there either, but I do “like”.
Where's Frodo?
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KingTurgon
Nargothrond
Dec 30 2024, 2:14am
Post #48 of 53
(9890 views)
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I love the idea of moving to new software, you're right the boards do feel pretty clunky these days.
One suggestion I have is use whatever server they use over at boards.theforce.net
It's very easy to navigate and makes for a very smoot forum experience. I've been a regular on those boards for years, let me know if you want me to reach out to the admins there for more information on software
A couple other things:
- I'd love to get forums going for each individual film. As it is right now, locating specific discussions on a particular film (Hunt for Gollum, The Desolation of Smaug, War of the Rohirrim, etc.) can be challenging, and I think a subforum for each would be very helpful
- The idea of archiving all the old threads does bum me out a bit, as I like having the freedom to re-open old discussions after a rewatch
1) FOTR 2) AUJ 3) ROTK 4) TTT 5) DOS 6) BOFA
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Meneldor
Doriath
Dec 30 2024, 4:21am
Post #49 of 53
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is an interesting place; I've had an account there since 1998 and I'm still an active participant. However, their software is also out of date and they're planning on switching to something newer soon.
I'm Sarge over there, what's your username?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Jan 2, 6:44am
Post #50 of 53
(9693 views)
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I never had an account there, but I lurked briefly back when I was hanging around on SW forums a bit. Hadn't thought about it in ages, but thank you for the unexpected moment of nostalgia!
I just checked and it looks like TheForce.net currently uses XenForo. I've a little experience with that on the non-technical side of things from my time as a moderator on a forum running XF, and it made a very good impression on me. It's relatively new (fake edit: emphasis on relatively; where did the last decade go, again?) but it's become something of a standard amongst modernising forums. I know there are a few Tolkien sites that have already adopted it.
For my part, I think the current structure of subforums on TORn works well, but I'm a believer in compactness in general. :P I'll concede that having lots of individual subforums with granular focuses can be useful on very, very large sites, but I think it looks bad to have too many subforums where the most recent post is weeks or months old, and that happens easily when you spread yourself thin. In this day and age of Tolkien fandom, I think the current set-up is especially effective.
(This post was edited by Eldy on Jan 2, 6:49am)
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
