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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Dec 10 2024, 12:19am
Post #26 of 35
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You've flagged 'multiple plot paths' to the outcome you've posted: that Helm may have had a Ring of Power, as an explanation in turn for him entering into Rohirric legend as a wraith. The source material refers to wraiths that clearly cannot have had Rings of Power (the Dead Men of Dunharrow), therefore indicating that there was no exclusive connection between the Rings of Power and 'wraithdom'. You've also posited, subsequently, that Helm was so strong a wraith that he must have been on a par with the Nazgūl, therefore circling back round to your original explanation that a Ring of Power must be the root cause.
I know that there are other ways of becoming a wraith than possessing a Ring of Power, but these ways are not interchangeable in their end results:
"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord"
-- Gandalf to Frodo
Clearly there are differences between different categories of wraiths. Ringwraiths are particularly strong ones, and it doesn't appear to be a close thing. Ringwraiths are difficult to produce too, and that probably has a lot to do with their power level at the end of the process.
Also, there isn't anything to even hint at the possibility that Helm might have received a Morgul-wound, and in fact that would go strongly against all evidence. Helm's case isn't at all similar to that of Boromir I, the Steward of Gondor.
So this leaves the Dead Men of Dunharrow and their vague curse method. It is important to remember that the Dead Men of Dunharrow are an entire people, and their massive output of Fear Units is not the output of any of the individual Dead alone. Also trying to find a way that Helm could have possibly been contaminated by the curse requires much wilder speculation than thinking of how Helm could have gotten a Ring of Power.
As for the possibility that Helm could have become a wraith through some other way, there is nothing to suggest that such a thing is even possible, let alone that it could occur naturally.
As it stands, I can find no evidence that the author had any intention of casting Helm in the way you'd like it to be seen. While I haven't come across any intra-textual support for your theories, either in the final-form published story or its numerous drafts or in Tolkien's voluminous correspondence, the multiple plot paths you've set out are genuinely fascinating. They remind me of some of my favourite moments in The Lord of the Rings Online video game, where the writers have sprung a fan-fic twist - spoiler alert: whatever happened to Eärnur, thirty-third king of Gondor...?
I've speculated about Eärnur before, but I don't think I have done so on this site. I've never played the official LotR games, but the information is there in the Appendices, and I see that someone else has been able to notice it too. (I admit that didn't notice the Helm thing before this thread made me look at the text again, though.)
Similarly, I don't see anything to support the view that additional Rings of Power were created 'off-set', handily ready to explain how Helm may have got his hands on one. However, I'm very much aligned with your view about the distribution of the Rings of Power. I also, in a head-canon way, reckon that while 'Seven for the Dwarf-lords' is explicable on account of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves, that 'Mortal Men doomed to die' ended up as Nine is more a matter of base logistics. Sauron got his hands on 16 Rings of Power during the sack of Ost-in-Edhil, set aside seven for the Dwarves and distributed the remainder to his next target 'race'. There were a couple of good discussions on this on the Main and Reading Room boards in 2022. Just in case you missed them and are interested, you can find them here and here. No doubt, over the decades, there have been other discussions on the boards on this subject, so this will be only a taster! Given your interest in the numbers of the Rings of Power, you'll defo love re-reading HoMe VI - the 'Ancient History' section. The number of Rings of Power apportioned to the different peoples of Middle-earth bounce around quite a bit before settling down into the formula we're all familiar with.
The problem with reading early drafts for understanding the final version is that the changes in the writing process don't actually reveal anything solid about the final version. Maybe an interesting detail was omitted as needless infodumping. Maybe that same detail was removed because it was no longer valid. It can be impossible to tell the difference. Even author's own outlines, if they survive, cannot be relied on to give accurate information because of the changes that can occur during the writing process. Very few authors would bother to go back and update the outline in these situations.
The Book of Lost Tales is different though, being in places vastly more detailed and informative than the abbreviated later versions of the same tales and having some material that has no later equivalent. Despite this there are still big question of how much of Lost Tales information can be considered canon and what really is canon in the context of Tolkien, who sometimes changed his mind on crucial worldbuilding matters.
On folklore and its function in the feigned histories included in the Appendices of LotR, I agree with you - these aren't in place to "demonstrate the foolishness of the common people". In my view, they are a delightful part of Tolkien's secondary world construction, telling stories and history through feigned historians and glossarists. Merry, who is likely one such with regard to 'The House of Eorl' section of Appendix A, is recording, in this instance, not just the 'dry facts' of Helm being besieged in the Hornburg but also the beliefs that people held thereafter. It's a device that Tolkien repeatedly deploys, via descriptions in the mouths of his protagonists or through feigned historical accounts.
The beliefs of the people would have been caused by something. "Actual historical events" is the simplest explanation.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 10 2024, 2:03am
Post #27 of 35
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When is a Wraith Not a Wraith?
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We've veered far off-topic here, but I'm willing to take this a bit farther. I think we need to define our terms. By Wraith (capital "w"), I mean a physical being who has entered a state of undeath due to either the possession of Ring of Power or having succumbed to a wound received from a Morgul-blade. This is a being who exists simultaneously in the physical world and the spirit realm; ultimately their body becomes invisible to normal eyes but still retains its physical existence. A Wraith is not a ghost or a spectre such as the Dead Men of Dunharrow, but still possesses a corporeal body.
The fate of King Eärnur of Gondor is uncertain. He might have been killed outright by the Lord of the Nazgūl. He might have been captured and tortured to death. Or, Eärnur might have been wounded (and even tortured with a Morgul-blade, transforming him into a lesser Wraith. There is no evidence that King Helm of Rohan became a Wraith. If he continued to haunt the living world beyond his death, it was more likely as a spectre, a ghost.
Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved. - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 10 2024, 2:05am)
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Dec 10 2024, 3:29am
Post #28 of 35
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I considered putting in a something about wraiths, wights, etc. but decided not to. Tolkien never gives exact definitions about these things, and the people of Rohan probably weren't experts in the field of undead classification.
Appendix A refers to the post-death Helm as a wraith with a small w. Tolkien is not always consistent with his use of capital letters to refer to types of beings.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Dec 10 2024, 12:33pm
Post #29 of 35
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So I went looking through the text of LotR to see how Tolkien uses the words "ghost" and "spectre". It doesn't look like Tolkien uses these words to refer to a specific incorporeal category of undead being like the well-defined ghosts in Dungeons & Dragons.
living ghosts -> the Nazgūl
a ghost that drinks blood -> Gollum in rumors
ghosts -> the Dead Men of Dunharrow
spectre -> gloss for Dwimmerlaik
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 10 2024, 3:11pm
Post #30 of 35
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...I think we can understand that when we refer to ghosts, spectres, spirits, etc. then we are describing incorporeal beings, not creatures with physical bodies. This would seem to accurately describe the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Wights, which we have not really discussed much here, seem to be long-dead corpses inhabited by evil spirits--at least those Wights we find in Middle-earth.
Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved. - Tony Isabella
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Felagund
Mithlond
Dec 10 2024, 4:57pm
Post #31 of 35
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Interesting further thoughts, thanks for replying. I'll try to keep my responses focused on your new additions rather than where I've commented on your previous speculation - apologies though if I stray!
I know that there are other ways of becoming a wraith than possessing a Ring of Power, but these ways are not interchangeable in their end results:
Not sure I've understood you here. Is it the end result of being a wraith is singular, while the pathways there are plural? If so, I don't think I agree. Some wraiths, infamously the Ringwraiths, are enslaved to Sauron. This, as per the quote you provided, would have been the fate of 'wraith Frodo' too. The Dead Men of Dunharrow, although worshippers of Sauron in life, were not enslaved by him in death - rather, it was Isildur's curse that brought about their undeath. I happen to think that had Aragorn have been foolish enough to take the Grey Host with him to Mordor, Sauron, being the Necromancer after all, would have likely seized control of them. But that's speculation on my part! My point is that there is differentiation not only in how 'wraithification' comes about but the end result as well - and not just in power levels, as you've put it previously. But shout if I've misunderstood though!
As for the possibility that Helm could have become a wraith through some other way, there is nothing to suggest that such a thing is even possible, let alone that it could occur naturally.
I think we've arrived at a false fork in the road here. You present routes that imply that these are definitive. Which is risky in a context where the whole premise of Helm as a wraith is framed by a feigned historian as "Yet men said...", ie. we may be in the realm of folklore. But going with 'Helm as wraith', you've arguably set up straw men: it can't have been a Morgul-blade; and Helm can't have been infected by the curse that chained the Men of the Mountains to the Circles of the World, beyond natural life.. therefore it must be a Ring of Power. Firstly, there's no evidence in the text to go with either of the straw men anyway, let alone the Ring of Power theory; and secondly, Tolkien did refer to at least one other wraith, in the First Age, predating all of the above 'routes'. This was the case of Gorlim the Unhappy, who appears in the 'Lay of Leithian' (HoMe III) and the 'Of Beren and Lśthien' chapter of The Silmarillion.
The example of Gorlim isn't without its own difficulties. Not least, comparing texts written at different stages of Tolkien's development of his secondary world can throw up as many contradictions as it does clarity. Moreover, turning to the texts in question, Beren's encounter with the wraith of Gorlim takes place in a dream. I quote the Lay, in its 'Recommenced' form (c. 1950s) and 'Of Beren and Lśthien' in that order:
He [Beren] shuddered and thence to crawl
through winding weeds, when far away
he saw a shadow faint and grey
gliding across the dreary lake.
Slowly it came, and softly spake:
'Gorlim I was, but now a wraith
of will defeated, broken faith,
traitor betrayed. Go! Stay not here!
and:
Then Beren was aware in his dream of a form that came to him across the water, and it was a wraith of Gorlim; and it spoke to him declaring his treachery and death, and bade him make haste to warn his father.
A wraith in a dream but a true dream with a true warning, no less. It's certainly implicit that Beren believes that it is the wraith of his former companion and the linguistics of the encounter revolve around what is described, explicitly, as a 'wraith'. I note that Gorlim was not described as a wraith in the earliest surviving version of the Lay (c. 1925-1931), depicted then as a 'shadow' and a 'faint form' - but still returned from the dead, so to speak. Interestingly, given the date range of the 'Recommenced' version of the Lay, as deduced by Christopher Tolkien, the entry of the word / concept of 'wraith' into the Lay of Leithian is either contemporary with LotR or dating to shortly after its completion. I doubt Tolkien was embarking on an elaborate typology of the undead when re-drafting the Lay but we appear to have linguistic read-across, from an author who, to put it mildly, took a deep interest in linguistics.
So, where might we go from here? Some basic observations, first, via applying your proposed routes to 'wraithdom'. Gorlim did not become a wraith due to wielding a Ring of Power nor through being pierced by a Morgul-blade. Nor for that matter, being exposed to a curse by Isildur. He was not enslaved by Sauron, despite being slain on his orders. This wraith was, like Helm was believed to be by the Rohirrim after his death ("Yet men said") a force for good - or at least not a force for evil. We are quite possibly faced with the idea that a wraith can manifest for a distinct purpose, with the means being secondary, inexplicable or not relevant to the narrative. There needn't be a need to explain, by inserting speculative, external assumptions into the text that we have.
Which is not to say that speculation isn't fun or engrossing! If I were to add to the cascade of speculation, I'd point to the earliest extant version of the Lay, specifically lines 333-34 of Canto II:
Thus Gorlim died a bitter death,
and cursed himself with dying breath,
Taken literally, Gorlim has pronounced a curse on himself, for his own faithlessness to Barahir. Is this the trigger for his return from the dead? Is there an analogue to be had here with regard to Isildur's curse and the undeath of the wraiths known as the Dead Men of Dunharrow? Did Helm, "fierce and gaunt for famine and grief", curse himself - shattered, as he was, by the death of his sons and the direness of the straits of his people, into which his own decisions have, at least in part, brought them? Maybe. It's certainly an idea to play with, as it at least has a textual basis with contextual relevance. Even so, to come back to my point about comparing passages from different phases of Tolkien's writings, Canto II was drafted as many as three decades before the publication of Appendix A of LotR, wherein lies the tale of Helm Hammerhand. So, I reckon it's only fair that I classify my own foray into the function of curses here as speculative!
An additional observation about the speculative theory of Helm holding a Ring of Power. The effect of a Ring of Power on a human wielder is well known - their physical bodies essentially fade out of the mortal plane, "for ever invisible save to him that wore the One Ring... they entered into the realm of shadows." ('Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', The Silmarillion) - one of many passages that we're all familiar with on this subject. In Helm's case, his corpse was found. He did not 'fade' into the shadows, to become a wraith. He appears to have frozen to death. If the "Yet men said" is to be taken literally, the entity that later appeared was surely a wraith unconnected with Helm's corporeal form. Indeed, Helm's body was interred with the other Kings of the Mark: "Helm was brought from the Hornburg and laid in the ninth mound." (Appendix A). Helm has not experienced undeath in the way the Ringwraiths did. He died and a shape of him rose again, so to speak. A Ringwraith, in contrast, was subject to a mockery of "life unending" ('Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', The Silmarillion). Back to Helm, his 'state' reminds me much more of that of Gorlim's; as well as the reaction of the people of Brethil, when having assumed that he was dead, they saw Tśrin return from the slaying of Glaurung ('Of Tśrin Turambar', The Silmarillion):
But when the people saw him they drew back in fear, thinking that it was his unquiet spirit.
Turning to the following:
The problem with reading early drafts for understanding the final version is that the changes in the writing process don't actually reveal anything solid about the final version. Maybe an interesting detail was omitted as needless infodumping. Maybe that same detail was removed because it was no longer valid. It can be impossible to tell the difference. Even author's own outlines, if they survive, cannot be relied on to give accurate information because of the changes that can occur during the writing process. Very few authors would bother to go back and update the outline in these situations.
I don't have much to say on this other than we should just contentedly disagree. Which is not to say that drafts shouldn't be treated with care. However, I firmly hold that the millions of words of Tolkien's drafts, 'liner notes' and his commentaries on this own work and ideas can shed a lot of light on how the final version of published text came about, and perhaps even reveal something more of authorial intent. In this vein, I note that you're enjoying revisiting The Book of Lost Tales - I salute your good taste!
And to this:
It is important to remember that the Dead Men of Dunharrow are an entire people, and their massive output of Fear Units is not the output of any of the individual Dead alone.
I love, and am disturbed in turn, by the idea of 'Fear Units'! I don't see its applicability in this discussion but it's a great idea all the same for a Dungeons & Dragons or Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) campaign, for example.
And finally, to this:
The beliefs of the people would have been caused by something. "Actual historical events" is the simplest explanation.
I'm not sure this is how folklore works: mechanically, inevitably and invariably arising from 'actual historical events', without any kind of embellishment or hand-me-down evolution over time. The Dunlendings, I recall, believed that the Rohirrim burned their captives alive - which turned out to be not true, at least in the aftermath of the Battle of the Helm's Deep. We're dealing with a very common 'narrative within the narrative' tool employed by Tolkien. The reference to Helm's fate is within that context - there may have been a wraith, there may not. Personally, I like the idea that there was and it does feel very Middle-earth. Yet, as a reader, I can't and am possibly not meant to know for sure. That of course allows for plenty of speculative enjoyment.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Felagund
Mithlond
Dec 10 2024, 5:04pm
Post #32 of 35
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something about wraiths, wights, etc.
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I had a crack at pulling a few things together on this in June 2021. In case of interest, you can find the original essay and the excellent contributions of others here: peering into the Unseen.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Voronwė_the_Faithful
Doriath
Dec 10 2024, 5:22pm
Post #33 of 35
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As I said at the time, Great Stuff!
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I'm glad you linked back to that post and I had an opportunity to read it again. There is so much good information (spiced up with a fine dollop of informed speculation) that it really requires multiple reading over the course of time to digest. I found that I took even more from reading it this time then when I read the first time three and half (!!!!!!) years ago.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Dec 11 2024, 10:38pm
Post #34 of 35
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Helm's Power Level feat. Gorlim
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Not sure I've understood you here. Is it the end result of being a wraith is singular, while the pathways there are plural? If so, I don't think I agree. Some wraiths, infamously the Ringwraiths, are enslaved to Sauron. This, as per the quote you provided, would have been the fate of 'wraith Frodo' too. The Dead Men of Dunharrow, although worshippers of Sauron in life, were not enslaved by him in death - rather, it was Isildur's curse that brought about their undeath. I happen to think that had Aragorn have been foolish enough to take the Grey Host with him to Mordor, Sauron, being the Necromancer after all, would have likely seized control of them. But that's speculation on my part! My point is that there is differentiation not only in how 'wraithification' comes about but the end result as well - and not just in power levels, as you've put it previously. But shout if I've misunderstood though!
I think there are strong and weak wraiths, and also there would probably be types of undead beings other than wraiths, though this would depend on Tolkien's exact definition of "wraith".
I think the power level issue is very important. The post-death Helm is portrayed as a very powerful undead with a serious fear aura. He was capable of killing warriors all on his own and did so repeatedly. Therefore any weak types of undead can be ruled right out because Helm obviously wasn't any of them.
Also, if ordinary people would sometimes spontaneously turn into undead akin to Helm, this should have been more visible in the worldbuilding. (And no, I don't think the Dead Marshes count. I think that was Sauron's doing.)
Re: Gorlim
I think it's entirely possible that Sauron was responsible for every single undead spirit in the First Age and that's why they had such a scary reputation. This could well indeed include Gorlim the Unhappy. Even the Witch-king displays some independent thinking and personal opinions, so Gorlim warning Beren does not necessarily mean that Gorlim was free from Sauron's control, merely that Sauron's control had holes in it. Having Gorlim curse himself "out of his own free will" may have been necessary for Sauron's First Age method for turning someone into an undead.
The other option is that Gorlim wasn't turned by Sauron. Under that scenario Gorlim's dream message might have been a case of after-death communication (sent from the Halls of Mandos, presumably as a special favor) or else Gorlim really had remained behind and used his own spiritual power to connect to Beren's mind. I think in this latter version Gorlim would have been properly classified as dead, not undead, and would have lacked any real capacity to affect the world. He would have been like a weaker human version of an Elven fairė, and sending the message to Beren's sleeping mind would have been the extent of Gorlim's powers.
Tolkien describes the Houseless Elves who rejected the Call of Mandos as relatively powerless spirits, though capable of some telepathy and even possessing bodies under the right circumstances, and I think Gorlim under similar circumstances wouldn't have been any stronger.
An additional observation about the speculative theory of Helm holding a Ring of Power. The effect of a Ring of Power on a human wielder is well known - their physical bodies essentially fade out of the mortal plane, "for ever invisible save to him that wore the One Ring... they entered into the realm of shadows." ('Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', The Silmarillion) - one of many passages that we're all familiar with on this subject. In Helm's case, his corpse was found. He did not 'fade' into the shadows, to become a wraith. He appears to have frozen to death. If the "Yet men said" is to be taken literally, the entity that later appeared was surely a wraith unconnected with Helm's corporeal form. Indeed, Helm's body was interred with the other Kings of the Mark: "Helm was brought from the Hornburg and laid in the ninth mound." (Appendix A). Helm has not experienced undeath in the way the Ringwraiths did. He died and a shape of him rose again, so to speak. A Ringwraith, in contrast, was subject to a mockery of "life unending" ('Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', The Silmarillion).
"And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings."
-- Gandalf in The Shadow of the Past
Note that Gandalf uses the word "if" in the previous sentence. It took a long time for the original Nazgūl to turn. Helm wasn't active nearly that long.
Also I'm not so sure that Helm really died of the cold with that strange statue-like stopping of his:
One night men heard the horn blowing, but Helm did not return. In the morning there came a sun-gleam, the first for long days, and they saw a white figure standing still on the Dike, alone, for none of the Dunlendings dared come near. There stood Helm, dead as a stone, but his knees were unbent.
-- Appendix A
Helm had gone out to the cold many times, but he didn't expect the return of sunlight. He may not even have known that he had developed a sunlight vulnerability during the winter and should have started to wear a Nazgūl cloak if he wanted to go about in daylight. (The way Helm just stopped standing up reminds me of the three Trolls in The Hobbit, as strange as that connection might sound. There is much we don't know about Troll biology. They might even be undead in Tolkien's world contrary to the usual monster classification...)
Turning to the following: The problem with reading early drafts for understanding the final version is that the changes in the writing process don't actually reveal anything solid about the final version. Maybe an interesting detail was omitted as needless infodumping. Maybe that same detail was removed because it was no longer valid. It can be impossible to tell the difference. Even author's own outlines, if they survive, cannot be relied on to give accurate information because of the changes that can occur during the writing process. Very few authors would bother to go back and update the outline in these situations. I don't have much to say on this other than we should just contentedly disagree. Which is not to say that drafts shouldn't be treated with care. However, I firmly hold that the millions of words of Tolkien's drafts, 'liner notes' and his commentaries on this own work and ideas can shed a lot of light on how the final version of published text came about, and perhaps even reveal something more of authorial intent. In this vein, I note that you're enjoying revisiting The Book of Lost Tales - I salute your good taste!
I've done some little writing myself (unpublished), and this gives me some perspective about authorial intent and how fickle it can be. Tolkien himself had some radical changes of opinion over the years.
And about The Book of Lost Tales, I think that one is badly underappreciated. I much prefer it to Tolkien's late production, though I would agree with most people that Tolkien's middle period was his creative peak.
I love, and am disturbed in turn, by the idea of 'Fear Units'! I don't see its applicability in this discussion but it's a great idea all the same for a Dungeons & Dragons or Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) campaign, for example.
The point is, I think the Fear Units have something to do with the overall strength of an undead being. I don't think it's a direct threat level measurement, but not completely unrelated either.
Like, a powerful Wraith emits a lot of Fear Units like a powerful lamp emits a lot of lumens. The black cloaks on the Nazgūl work somewhat similarly to a lamp shade and diminish the amount of Fear Units that reach an outside observer. However lumens and Fear Units appear to work differently when the units from multiple sources are added together, but that may be merely an artifact of non-linear fear perception, so that 2000 Fear Units appears to be more than twice as scary as 1000 Fear Units.
And finally, to this: The beliefs of the people would have been caused by something. "Actual historical events" is the simplest explanation. I'm not sure this is how folklore works: mechanically, inevitably and invariably arising from 'actual historical events', without any kind of embellishment or hand-me-down evolution over time. The Dunlendings, I recall, believed that the Rohirrim burned their captives alive - which turned out to be not true, at least in the aftermath of the Battle of the Helm's Deep. We're dealing with a very common 'narrative within the narrative' tool employed by Tolkien. The reference to Helm's fate is within that context - there may have been a wraith, there may not. Personally, I like the idea that there was and it does feel very Middle-earth. Yet, as a reader, I can't and am possibly not meant to know for sure. That of course allows for plenty of speculative enjoyment.
The part about the Rohirrim supposedly burning their captives comes from this passage:
The men of Dunland were amazed; for Saruman had told them that the men of Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive.
The words "Saruman had told them" are the key here. Saruman had a clear personal incentive to lie. On the other hand, the old stories of the undead Helm would likely have been the result of multiple reports from brave warriors claiming to have encountered an undead horror beyond understanding.
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Felagund
Mithlond
Dec 12 2024, 7:20pm
Post #35 of 35
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Seamless integration into your theory!
Thanks for the reply and for the interesting discussion. Especially enjoyed reading some Tolkien I hadn't picked up in a while, like the Lay of Leithian. It's been exhausting though, I have to admit, so that's me out :)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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