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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 14 2024, 3:58pm
Post #1 of 20
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Tolkien and Don Marquis (archy and mehitabel)
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I read archy and mehitabel by Don Marquis, and I think I stumbled onto a work that had a major influence on Tolkien. (For those unfamiliar with Archy: Archy is a free verse poet reincarnated as a cockroach who can work a typewriter by jumping on the keys. His friend Mehitabel is an alley cat who claims she used to be Cleopatra.)
I'd say "pity the poor spiders" in particular is worth a look. You can read it here, thanks to public domain:
http://donmarquis.com/reading-room/spiders/
Here we might have a key influence to Tolkien's portrayal of Gollum and Shelob in LotR. Gollum's self-pity and Shelob as a starving mother spider who eats her husbands and lacks sufficient prey could both have had their origin in the famously spider-hating Tolkien having read "pity the poor spiders".
Another interesting point that looks like it could have been influential to Tolkien is the portrayal of reincarnation. In Archy's world, humans can get punished for their sins in life by having to reincarnate as lower lifeforms, such as rats, fleas, cat fish, etc. The characterization of all the animal and insect characters is consistent with this. (Archy claims that becoming a cockroach is his punishment for having composed free verse, but I'd say that Archy's demonstrated excessive pride and dishonesty probably have more to do with it.) A while ago I mentioned the theory that all the Orcs are evil because becoming an Orc is an afterlife punishment, and here with archy and mehitabel (published in book form in 1927), we have a possible source for such a concept in Tolkien's mind.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 14 2024, 7:16pm
Post #2 of 20
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... that Tolkien was familiar with this work?
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 14 2024, 8:23pm
Post #3 of 20
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Sometimes you simply can't get incontrovertible positive proof on everything.
Tolkien read a lot, including American literature, and was interested in fantasy and supernatural themes. Something as popular as archy and mehitabel would surely have been on his radar.
archy and mehitabel has remained in print through all these years and would be considered a classic of American literature. In case you think it's a children's book, it's not.
More information:
http://donmarquis.com/archy-and-mehitabel/
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 14 2024, 8:30pm
Post #4 of 20
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 14 2024, 11:56pm
Post #5 of 20
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You act like you don't believe Tolkien read anything unless he mentioned it in a letter or the text was required reading in an educational institution where he was present.
#1: This is far from an obscure book no one has ever heard of and would have been better known in Tolkien's time. The lasting popularity can be seen in how decades or more after the initial publication archy and mehitabel has gained musicals, a movie, a modern annotated edition, a Wikipedia article, etc. Tolkien read a lot, and there wasn't as much fantasy literature being published then as there is now. The laws of probability decree that Tolkien highly likely would have encountered the book at some point in his life. I think the writing style and humor would have been right up his alley.
#2: Some of Tolkien's own verse isn't too dissimilar and might bear some relation to archy and mehitabel. Particular examples are Errantry, which in a rare turn has a morally questionable insect(?) in the role of the hero, and Cat, a poem written using the mirroring chiastic structure, which has a main character that appears to be an inverse of Mehitabel, living the repressed housecat life she deliberately rejected in favor of her wild side. This can be compared against Mehitabel's old boyfriend's poem in "mehitabel s extensive past". That one has a different meter but a similar chiastic structure. (Comparing the two poems in less vague terms could be educational, but Cat is still under copyright and the other one is just a little too not-tame to post here.)
#3: Internal textual evidence fits well with the idea that Tolkien had archy and mehitabel on his mind when writing Book IV.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 15 2024, 12:40am
Post #6 of 20
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Circumstantial evidence can be very powerful evidence, when it exists
[In reply to]
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Here there is none. There is no indication that I am aware of (or that you have presented) that Tolkien had any interest in any kind of similar work, let alone this one. There is extensive scholarship on what types of literature Tolkien read or had in his library (see, for instance Tolkien's Library: An Annotated Checklist by Oronzo Cilli) and there is nothing that I am aware of that suggests that he was interested in or familiar with anything written by Don Marquis or anything remotely similar to this work. Absent such evidence, any inference that Tolkien might have been influenced by this is far too thin to have any validity.
As for your claim that "Tolkien's own verse isn't too dissimilar" I think the less said the better.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 15 2024, 2:14am
Post #7 of 20
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For anyone who is interested in a serious examination of some of the sources that influenced Tolkien, as it happens there is going to be a sale starting tomorrow on one of the finest books on the topic, Tolkien and the Study of His Sources, edited by Jason Fisher (who used to post here as visualweasel (it's listed at $19.99, but beginning tomorrow through December 2 it will be on sale for $13.00).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 15 2024, 2:24am
Post #8 of 20
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Looking at that Amazon listing, I can definitely see huge issues with taking that book as the final word on the complete list of what Tolkien read and didn't read.
And no, I'm definitely not going to buy that book to see what is in it. It's just not a good use for money.
Tolkien didn't need to loan a popular bestseller from the Bodleyan library. He could have used a normal library that didn't track loans closely enough to be traceable to this day. He could also have been forced to trim his personal bookshelf for reasons of space, as he had to move houses more than once during his life. In fact, there is real, documented, positive evidence that this in fact really did happen:
From Letter 332:
By an act of great generosity – in spite of great internal difficulties – Merton has now provided [me] with a very excellent flat, which will probably accommodate the bulk of my surviving 'library'.
The key word here is "surviving". If some parts of the library survived, it implies that other parts of the library did not.
If you think Tolkien didn't read anything in the vein of Don Marquis, I don't know how you think he himself produced his lighter work. Tolkien in his own writings reveal that he had read and liked Conan the Barbarian and that he is familiar with multiple installments of Andrew Lang's [color] Fairy Book series. He also mentions two of H. G. Wells's science fiction novels, implying that he read those too. Clearly Tolkien found time for popular fiction.
As for your claim that "Tolkien's own verse isn't too dissimilar" I think the less said the better.
I wasn't talking about the likes of the Lay of Leithian here. The ones that aren't too dissimilar are the likes of Cat and Perry the Winkle and that lot - comic verse. I don't know how much you know about Don Marquis though. He could rhyme when he wanted to, and that thing about the lack of capital letters is because Archy can't work the shift key, being a cockroach and all.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 15 2024, 4:49am
Post #9 of 20
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Anyway, I'd like to mention that the full pdf of archy and mehitabel can be downloaded for free in good quality courtesy of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln:
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/zeabook/138/
This would be a primary source for the matter at hand.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 16 2024, 4:32pm
Post #10 of 20
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the famously spider-hating Tolkien.
In the unlikely event that anyone else is reading this thread, it should be made clear that Tolkien did not hate spiders, as he himself made clear in a 1955 letter to W.H. Auden, when he wrote:
I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Nov 16 2024, 5:17pm
Post #11 of 20
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A while ago I mentioned the theory that all the Orcs are evil because becoming an Orc is an afterlife punishment, and here with archy and mehitabel (published in book form in 1927), we have a possible source for such a concept in Tolkien's mind.
"The theory" of Orkish reincarnation only exists in your mind -- as does the influence of archy and mehitabel on Tolkien. I can't recall a single mention of Orcs being an afterlife punishment by Tolkien; likewise, I have never seen a singular record of Tolkien reading this book, published in the U.S. in 1927 while he was the Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford. Odd that what you infer as a "key influence" should be so absent from the record.
Therefore, as there is literally no proof whatsoever that a book that would have allegedly had such a profound effect on Tolkien was ever mentioned by him directly, or by scholars and researchers (and there is a mountain of evidence regarding the books that did influence him), then I will discard your notion as just another bit of tiresome fan-fiction you try to awkwardly force into the author's work.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 17 2024, 12:18am
Post #13 of 20
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How can they read Stephen King in England? He's an American author!
[In reply to]
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likewise, I have never seen a singular record of Tolkien reading this book, published in the U.S. in 1927 while he was the Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford.
The Atlantic Ocean is far from an unstoppable obstacle for a book written in English, especially one that is a lasting commercial success, such as archy and mehitabel. This isn't some no-name book that no one's ever heard of!
Not all of Tolkien's influences are ancient lays and medieval stuff. George MacDonald and Lord Dunsany should be well known and accepted as influences. The King of Elfland's Daughter was published in 1924. Lord Dunsany didn't die until 1957! I don't understand why it's so hard to imagine Professor Tolkien reading popular fantasy fiction for fun in his free time and then not writing it down for future historians' benefit, because that would be such a normal human thing to do.
By the way literary inspiration works, if Tolkien read contemporary popular fiction, he would naturally have been influenced by contemporary popular fiction and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make him "less of an author". Also, even literature professors can miss spotting influences. Not even literature professors have read ever book under the Sun. Someone who combs through medieval literature to understand Tolkien will not spend that time reading literature contemporary to Tolkien.
This whole thing reminds me of how archeology professors confidently announce that Abraham couldn't possibly have owned camels because the earliest camel bones discovered in the region are dated to a couple of centuries later than Abraham's time. This ignores that archeologists don't find the remains of every camel that had ever lived (far from it) and that the Bible doesn't portray Abraham's camels as something mundane. The Bible portrays Abraham as very wealthy and Abraham's camels as something to send on a mission to impress a girl and her family. Rachel's offer also shows that she likely has no idea about the drinking capacity of a thirsty camel, implying that camels aren't common where she lives.
I can't recall a single mention of Orcs being an afterlife punishment by Tolkien
Part of good writing is knowing what to explain and what to leave for the reader to infer on his own. Over-explaining makes the world feel flat and shallow.
I've been thinking of making a proper theory post on this subject, but it won't be for a good while yet.
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Silvered-glass
Nargothrond
Nov 17 2024, 1:03am
Post #14 of 20
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The editing window here is too short.
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Nov 17 2024, 2:00am
Post #15 of 20
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The incredibly invisible influence incorrectly implicated in inept inferences
[In reply to]
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Not all of Tolkien's influences are ancient lays and medieval stuff. George MacDonald and Lord Dunsany should be well known and accepted as influences. The King of Elfland's Daughter was published in 1924. Lord Dunsany didn't die until 1957! I don't understand why it's so hard to imagine Professor Tolkien reading popular fantasy fiction for fun in his free time and then not writing it down for future historians' benefit, because that would be such a normal human thing to do.
Interesting. You mentioned authors who were verifiably read (and discussed) by Tolkien. I'm surprised you didn't mention other contemporaries like the Inklings and their visitors, or Chesterton, Auden, Buchan and Rider Hagard -- all alive and kicking during Tolkien's lifetime. I'll just leave it at that, and let you discover the ramifications on your own. Which leads me directly to...
Part of good writing is knowing what to explain and what to leave for the reader to infer on his own. Over-explaining makes the world feel flat and shallow..
Part of being a good reader is not injecting fan-fiction nonsense into a well-rounded fictional world. For instance, a book with no mention in the voluminous research on Tolkien, but one that you infer is allegedly a "key influence" on the author, is a faux entrée into you playing the barrow wight and digging up Orkish reincarnation as a means of corporal punishment by Eru, which, again, does not exist in Tolkien's corpus. Nowhere. Void of mention or intention.
And there is plenty of material Tolkien wrote regarding reincarnation (or the lack thereof, depending on the circumstances) in his cosmos: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Laws and Customs among the Eldar, the late Essays on Glorfindel, The Tale of Adanel and, of course, in his Letters.
Mandos seems to hold sway over who may or may not be reincarnated. It is rather laughable and downright impertinent to assume that he would supply whole armies to the Dark Lords to slaughter the Children of Eru. Sounds incredibly self-defeating and at odds with the rest of the corpus, doesn't it? Particularly when reincarnation can be seen as a reward and never a punishment.
I've been thinking of making a proper theory post on this subject, but it won't be for a good while yet.
Although I can't speak for the majority here, I will infer that this bit of fan-fiction will go over as well as your previous foray into bizarrely comic speculation regarding Saruman moonlighting as Gandalf the White...
And just as easily refuted.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 17 2024, 2:21am
Post #16 of 20
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Although I can't speak for the majority here, I will infer that this bit of fan-fiction will go over as well as your previous foray into bizarrely comic speculation regarding Saruman moonlighting as Gandalf the White...
And just as easily refuted.
You can go ahead and speak for me as well. I just can't decide whether our esteemed OP's wild, crack-pot speculations are the result of fever dreams or if he is simply a contrarian. He reminds me of another former poster who was fond of similar views (i.e., Thorin Oakenshield and the Master of Lake-town were in the right; Bard was a manipulative bully). Hmmm, coincidence?
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 17 2024, 2:23am)
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Nov 17 2024, 2:59am
Post #17 of 20
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I'm rather surprised he has no theories on Trolls...
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You know, Trollish behavior, Trollish language, Trollish reproduction and mating rituals, how to spot a Troll when they're waiting in ambush, how to stop a Troll using logic and deductive reasoning. There is a plethora of ideas regarding Trolls that have not been discussed. Perhaps even a good troll being reincarnated into an Ent. Or vice versa, which I guess would be an Ent that ain't.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Nov 17 2024, 3:04am)
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Meneldor
Doriath
Nov 17 2024, 3:22am
Post #18 of 20
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has somewhat lessened of late.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 17 2024, 4:18am
Post #19 of 20
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...the OP is just one post away from: Exotic animals are fake; rock formations are the bones of ancient giants; and the Earth is flat. At least he'd have a solid basis for Flat Arda.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 17 2024, 4:21am)
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 17 2024, 10:17pm
Post #20 of 20
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Because recent discussion has descended into name-calling.
Reasoned disagreement is welcome; personal attacks are not. There are many laudable examples here in the Reading Room of people stating their arguments against theories that are outside what might be called mainstream Tolkien scholarship while staying polite in the process. If you find yourself too irate to make your arguments in such a manner, there's always the option of ignoring a post.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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