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Victariongreyjoy
Rohan
Nov 13, 11:52am
Post #1 of 19
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I beginning to think the show dropped the stuff that makes Numenoreans different from low-men
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The show is portraying them as normal humans to avoid some of the more uncomfortable stuff Tolkien wrote about in terms of superior races of men. What we get instead are the size and scope of their city. The use of aqueducts and the clealiness of the city. Developed society class system. Maybe they have slightly longer lifespan than a normal low-men because how advanced their society is, but I bet not much. 15-20 years longer lived?
A shame that today's mainstream cancel-culture nonsense has put limits to what can be depicted on screen.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Nov 13, 11:56am)
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Nov 13, 3:48pm
Post #2 of 19
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Elf ships on our shore; Elf workers taking your trades. Workers who don't sleep, don't tire, don't age. I say, the Queen's either blind or an Elf lover, just like her father.
From what I understand, this primitive behavior was a low point in the writing of the Numenorean people where one man is inciting terribly mundane job violence. It places their perceived quality beneath even the Men of Middle-earth. It is a stark contrast to the great respect for Aragorn and the Dunedain as shown in Lord of the Rings.
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Noria
Grey Havens
Nov 13, 4:38pm
Post #3 of 19
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I’m glad they’re so far minimizing the genetic aspects of the High/Middle/Low men dichotomy and basing it on technological superiority and cultural complexity. It’s bad enough at that.
I don’t think it’s political correctness to avoid the idea that genetically there are different grades of human beings, like eggs. It’s an offensive notion that smacks of eugenics, racism, imperialism and so on.
This classification system sort of works in the book because of Melian, but I’ve always disliked it. On a practical level, explaining it in RoP would mean introducing the story of Melian and Thingol. Maybe the writers have enough backstory to deal with already. Or they may lack the rights.
Anyway, the actual descendants of Elros may have a trace of the DNA of the Valar in their make-up, from Melian, but the rest of the Numenorians are just ordinary people whose ancestors were granted certain boons because of their heroism. That doesn’t stop the later Numenorians from becoming truly vile, as I suspect we’ll see starting in Season 3 of RoP. Has there even been any mention of lifespans at all?
I know Tolkien is said to have been anti-racism, but I wonder if he thought that Christians were superior to followers of other religions.
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Junesong
Rohan
Nov 13, 5:42pm
Post #4 of 19
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On the one hand, I think Numenoreans SHOULD have been presented as greater than the lesser men. I think this is something Jackson's films didn't do well either. Tolkien wrote some of his characters, and some of his people groups as larger than life - I hate the modern tendency to flatten everyone into a character arc of self-doubt and grittiness. It's tiresome.
Secondly, I disagree that the "They took our jobs!!" rant scene was missing Tolkien or bringing modern sensibilities into things, or whatever. I think the writing was clumsy and weak (almost all the Numenor writing so far has been thin, IMO) but it was certainly a good way of showing the schism in Numenorean culture regarding elves, as well as the growing xenophobia and nationalism of the Numenoreans. It was awkward as hell, sure - but I think they're trying to tell the same story as Tolkien, we'll just have to wait to watch it fully develop. My Numenorean "story" concerns were mostly quelled in the second season, all that's left to fix is whoever they have in charge of actually WRITING the story - because they are the worst in the show at dialogue.
(I'm making an assumption here that the writer's room has carved up the various storylines in the show and assigned the scripts to different people. I might be wrong here, but that's what it feels like. I'm not sure how else to account for the disparity in quality from one storyline to the next. It is beyond belief that the same person could be writing the Annatar/Celebrimbor, Durin/Durin politics etc, and also be same person who's writing the clumsy Harfoot/Gandalf stuff, and the cringey Numenor banter. Maybe I'm wrong. But I hope I'm not.)
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Victariongreyjoy
Rohan
Nov 14, 8:37am
Post #5 of 19
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Just mention they have longer lifespan and physically stronger would be enough
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The lifespan don't need to be 300 years. 180 to 200 would be more than enough and that the Numenoreans are physically stronger.
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TFP
Lorien
Nov 14, 10:58am
Post #6 of 19
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I'm on balance pleased they didn't go with the height thing - Tolkien's tendency to seemingly equate human height with some kind of 'godliness' was - to my relatively modern eye - more than a little odd and arguably suggestive of a racial hierarchy that places northern Europeans at the top...
Not showing longer lifespans thing I'd also be fine with - well, maybe. Numenor's envy of Elven lifespans goes to the absolute crux of the story, of course, and I agree that, whilst they've done a few bits & pieces to set this up, not covered it as strongly as I'd have liked.
Is the fact that they've already been given slightly longer lifespans important? Well, maybe. It's obviously very proper that the line of Elros would live longer... but the other Edain being given longer lifespans as a reward for their efforts against Morgoth... there is, to my eye, a subtle tension between mortality generally being 'the gift of men' [though the phrase isn't used often] and yet longer lifespans being given out as a reward.... whilst this is, on balance, a good tension, it to my mind does make the longer lifespans conceit dispensable to at least some degree?
(This post was edited by TFP on Nov 14, 10:59am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 16, 5:12am
Post #7 of 19
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When I noted the words low, medium and high something jarred with me.
It's because Tolkien never looked upon men in this way, never used the term low men. He calibrated men by their ability to understand and embrace the light and be drawn to it as opposed to men of darkness.
Tuor was enobled by finding the city of Gondolin just as Beren was enobled by being held in thrall to Luthien.
It is one of the most beautiful aspects of Tolkien's writing when a man gains stature, wisdom and nobility through moving toward the light. Aragorn was aspiring to that kind of Knights Templer (the warrior poet) outcome. My favourite intervention between mortal and immortal is the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. There are minor echoes in S1 between Arondir and Bronwyn of that exchange.
The second part of the story is that the Edain were blessed by the Elves. The gift of longer life, the seeing stones and a general sense of craft and knowledge. Their enhanced wisdom is through their being taught. The enoblement is not genetic as much as their aspiring to what they were being taught. The longer life is part of the dilemma of the story and therefore necessary and as for the tallness thats a world we live in. Some have greater and some lesser stature because of the grouping we hale from.
We then move on to the story told so far. Miriel and Elendil capture the spirit of Tolkien very well, it is the choices, the emphasis and the lack of context which makes the Numenor Story appear like the last item on tonights news bulletin.
The story should have begun with a discussion between those who recognised the Elves as their teachers and those who saw them as hemming them in. That crucial first scene where Pharazon makes a speech and every one changes their mind after a glass of beer set the scene for endless volt faces rather than what the showrunners have said they wanted to do show Numenor in an existential crisis and rudderless. What we have seen so far is not chaotic thinking but a deep sense of exploitive political short termism which engenders no sympathy.
The men of Numenor were blessed not genetically superior. But implicit in that is the West and the Men of the West have risen beyond the men of the shadow who are Eastwards.
Naturally in 2024 this strays into areas which make people uncomfortable because we live in a world were we equate equality with neutrality of culture and achievement.
We are all equal but we are culturally very different and thats what makes our real world glorious and fascinating and some cultures excel in ways of other do not understand. The great danger, and one that Tolkien shows us through his stories, is mono culture. We will all end up as Orcs with Smart Phones and to circle round the people of Numenor seem to have been the mob of Rome from the outset. But are you not entertained?
No, at the moment the wave; goodbye cannot come soon enough. Bring on Eru, the Valar, the special effects and put us out of our misery; or write better.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 16, 5:26am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 16, 5:50am
Post #8 of 19
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The lifespan don't need to be 300 years. 180 to 200 would be more than enough and that the Numenoreans are physically stronger.
I am not sure we need the latter, more enduring more hardy sounds better, physically stronger again has genetic connotations, words are really important here. it can be suggested that they are more olympic in their achievements which they own, rather than being genetically modified.
However the long life could be dealt with and add much to the story and act as a precursor to Aragorns dilemma when he dies, his nobility intact.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 16, 5:52am)
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Noria
Grey Havens
Nov 18, 4:53am
Post #9 of 19
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Book readers know that the book Numenorians were rewarded for their service with longer lifespans, knowledge etc. As I understand it, only the descendants of Elros should have that bit more, that strain of the divine, because of Melian. RoP has only touched on that idea as yet, when Adar mentioned Melian but in relation to Elrond. With the better nutrition and probable health care available in a richer society, the Numenoreans might have been expected to be hardier and longer-lived than the humans of Middle-earth anyway.
RoP probably could get away without mentioning longer lifespans for the Numenoreans, but IMO it adds something that, even with lives several times longer than those of other humans, they were increasingly dissatisfied.
However, for me it goes against the grain to have any kind of human considered superior, with a greater right to rule, by reason of their bloodline. Even in a fantasy world with Elves and Dwarves and Vala and so on, those notions are too reminiscent of real-world injustices and horrors. The Numenoreans themselves demonstrate that beautifully.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Nov 18, 5:05am
Post #10 of 19
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RoP probably could get away without...
Why do we come up with ideas and excuses for the show to not do a faithful adaptation? Writers who think they know better are what have killed numerous attempts at various franchises. Yet their ego and hubris continue on with the failure to learn.
However, for me it goes against the grain to have any kind of human considered superior, with a greater right to rule, by reason of their bloodline. Even in a fantasy world with Elves and Dwarves and Vala and so on, those notions are too reminiscent of real-world injustices and horrors. The Numenoreans themselves demonstrate that beautifully.
If that's how it was written, writers must have the courage to present it that way, without the heavy-handed on-the-nose preaching that tells us how to think about it. We can be offended on our own, and learn from it rather than push history or stories out of view because it is uncomfortable to see. Turning away isn't progress.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Nov 18, 5:06am)
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Junesong
Rohan
Nov 18, 12:49pm
Post #11 of 19
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Totally - I don't think we need read our world into all worlds. I certainly don't think it's a badge of honour or virtue to do so.
I think we're kind of gun shy - and our self correction is veering into self parody.
Presenting a Numenorean culture that is superior is pretty key to Tolkien's stories. I don't think our real world problems should stop us from adapting that story.
(My controversial culture take is that we're trying to blame human nature problems on something beyond human nature because otherwise we have to admit that there's something broken about humans and that sounds too much like God - so instead we'll leave our heads in the sand and our fingers pointing at everything else but us. But now I'm way off topic in an unnecessarily controversial way so I'm going to Homer myself back into the bushes...)
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 19, 12:41am
Post #12 of 19
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Totally - I don't think we need read our world into all worlds. I certainly don't think it's a badge of honour or virtue to do so.
I think we're kind of gun shy - and our self correction is veering into self parody.
Presenting a Numenorean culture that is superior is pretty key to Tolkien's stories. I don't think our real world problems should stop us from adapting that story.
(My controversial culture take is that we're trying to blame human nature problems on something beyond human nature because otherwise we have to admit that there's something broken about humans and that sounds too much like God - so instead we'll leave our heads in the sand and our fingers pointing at everything else but us. But now I'm way off topic in an unnecessarily controversial way so I'm going to Homer myself back into the bushes...)
I think we are in danger of Straw-manning this topic.
S1 and S2 have shown that Numenor is a more evolved, advanced society of men than those who remained in middle earth. The difference between the confused Southlanders (sauron or not sauron) and the confused Numenorian's is substantial.
The professor wrote a letter where he bitterly regretted the part that Hitler played in dragging the fine Germanic tradition through the mud. I think that exemplifies the author denoting the difference between very fine noble cultural achievements and theories about hierarchical racial distinctions.
It is entirely possible for ROP to denote the quality of achievements of the Land of the Star and the blessings of its people without looking upon it as a matter of racial genetics and I think the show runners understand Tolkien well enough to make that difference.
However some here have talked about how the show makes everything seem 'small', I think part of the Showrunners problem is to elevate through casting dialogue etc etc both the Elves and the Blessed Men of Numenor to the point where they are the mythical beings that Tolkien made them. Cynthia and Ismael are as Numenorian and Silvan Elf the strongest portayals.
My point is simple, some stray into 'intention and motive' of the show runners a lot. You have listened to them you know they know Tolkien. It's about execution where they fail.
We should not over look the legacy of Sir Peter Jackson in this. His portrayal of Silvan's Elves and Numenorian Men could be quite base and ordinary at times and way of piste.
As to your bracketed point, in order to show the failings of humanity you do not always need God, you just need to something relative to humanity to show its failings. In the real world we have yet to meet something which is relative but its possible in fiction to do so.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 19, 1:10am
Post #13 of 19
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My controversial culture take is that we're trying to blame human nature problems on something beyond human nature because otherwise we have to admit that there's something broken about humans
This show dealt with this in spades. Showing the endless repetitive nature of peoples failings, repeating the same mistakes over and over again, even after they have died.
And guess what the people it was portraying did not like it because:-
1) They never got what is obvious from early on S1 . The main protagonist actually tells the audience.
2) Many do not see themselves in it.
On the evidence of this show, stupid people do not like stupid people being portrayed as stupid; stupidly believing in wish fulfilment endings to their lives/deaths.
I freely admit humanity is incredibly deeply flawed (me too), the trick is to live with that truth.Tolkien did; even his Paradise was Lost.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 19, 1:19am)
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Noria
Grey Havens
Nov 20, 5:05am
Post #14 of 19
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I was speaking of my personal preferences.
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The writers of RoP will do as they do, and each of us will like the result or not.
Payne and McKay see a story within Tolkien’s rather basic narrative of the Second Age that they want to tell, and like every adaptor, like Peter Jackson, they will deviate from the original as necessary to tell their story in a fashion that suits the medium in which it will be presented. LoL, this is the exact same argument that raged over Jackson’s LotR movies twenty odd years ago.
According to Corey Olsen, Payne and McKay sometimes appear to be getting inspiration from Tolkien’s unpublished late writings, in which he played with alternate versions of some of the characters and events, most famously Galadriel but also Gandalf and the Blue wizards. So some of their ideas may be more canonical than most of us realize. I wouldn’t have thought that Amazon had the rights to that material directly but that’s none of my business.
As for superior strains of humanity, my preference is for fictional humans to be just humans, and in fantasy, the fantastical elements to be elves, dragons, wizards or whatever. It’s more interesting for me that way, a fun way of looking at ourselves through a different lens.
People are people and we do what we do out of our own natures. Human beings are wonderful and we are awful. Ordinary folk risk their lives to save people they don’t even know and ordinary folk commit atrocities. Two sides of the coin, sometimes in the same person. As Michelle said, we are all flawed and that’s something we just have to live with and do the best we can. There’s no need to get angsty about it.
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Victariongreyjoy
Rohan
Nov 20, 8:55am
Post #15 of 19
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Two nods we get to them being different than low-men
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Galadriel said to Halbrand aka Sauron when they arrived to Numenor for the first time, that Numenoreans were different than men in Middle-Earth. And the tapestry of Elros and Elrond.
I still believe they are normal men, but the royal descendants of Elros likely have long-lifespan. That's the only thing that separates them from ordinary men.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 23, 2:43am
Post #16 of 19
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Trystan Graville and you have a lot in common.
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"That’s a very human thing, because everything sometimes seems to be such a chore, you know? We don’t help ourselves sometimes; we make it harder for ourselves. I think everything is to be overcome in the human world – in Tolkien’s realm, the world of men. Nature is to be overcome. You’re not meant to have this incredible relationship with nature like the Elves do; and – more complex and slightly brutal, I guess l, but it’s still in Sympatico – what the Dwarves have; and what the Hobbits have.
They have to work hard to overcome the world of men. They don’t have that time; even though Númenoreans live longer than your average man, they still don’t have time to be at peace with the ocean, watch trees grow, and have the same relationship with mountains and everything. Everything is to be overcome. There is hardship in their world; when they overcome that, I guess it’s just in them [to look for] what’s next. The grass is always greener; there will always be something that needs doing; and it’s fast lane till crash! I think that kind of typifies us men, you know – where we go in this world and Tolkien’s world!"
Kind of puts this thread to bed.
Reading Trystan's thoughts, which also confirm the importance of the Palantir, and he is 1-0 down with Sauron, I cannot help but think that the back story briefing carried around in the actors ' heads is more nuanced than was communicated on screen and brings in another topic being discussed, new writers will hopefully better represent that in the dialogue and story telling of Numenor.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 23, 2:48am)
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Felagund
Rohan
Nov 25, 6:51pm
Post #17 of 19
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Gravelle and the archetypal Númenórean
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Finally read the full interview with Trystan Gravelle, and this bit that you've quoted is fascinating. It made me think of a conversation between Erendis and her daughter, Ancalimë, quoted below ['Aldarion & Erendis']:
Men in Númenor... The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them - and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once; and women to them are but fires on the hearth - for others to tend, until they are tired of play in the evening. All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, rivers to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body's need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth; and children to be teased when nothing else is to do - but they would as soon play with their hounds' whelps. To all they are gracious and kind, merry as larks in the morning (if the sun shines); for they are never wrathful if they can avoid it. Men should be gay, they hold, generous as the rich, giving away what they do not need. Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world besides their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them.
It reminded me, in parts, of Gravelle's reflections on the Men of Middle-earth, through a Númenórean lens. Although we're clearly encountering Pharazôn in his post- 'merry as larks in the morning' phase! Not that I've ever before regarded Aldarion and Pharazôn as being on the same plane, but Aldarion's own longing (or pothos, to use a more fitting, to my mind, Ancient Greek concept) to be at sea, out in the world 'doing things', also came to mind, when reading Gravelle's thoughts.
I also found this remark from Gravelle very interesting:
I always say that being a King’s man is an idea, an ideology, and the Faithful is more like a religion...
Insofar as it's possible to regard the Númenóreans' honouring of the Valar as 'religion', given Tolkien's efforts to frame these rituals, this is a pretty astute reflection, I reckon. Until the arrival of Sauron and his dark ministry in Númenor, the Faithful and the King's Men are arguably two sides of the same coin: one observant, as an article of faith; the other grudgingly adherent but otherwise increasingly rebellious due to a (mis)conception that the state 'religion' isn't delivering what they crave. They are ideologically rebels but not apostates - still barely, as they are, on the spectrum of adherence. As they ascend to the mainstream, we can throw in things like a superiority complex and displacement activity that drives and justifies a subjugation of 'lesser' Men, through tribute levied and colonial empire founded. Sauron's insidious nudge to worship of the Dark, obeisance to Melkor and outright denial of the Valar, in my view, obviously changes this up significantly. At that point, we're in the world of (new/revised) teleology, cult, sacrifice and so on.
Although I have no way of knowing for sure, I feel Gravelle may be very well-read in his Tolkien!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Victariongreyjoy
Rohan
Nov 25, 9:24pm
Post #18 of 19
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So Trystan just confirmed they have long-lifespan?
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Just read his interview and he said they live longer. So that confirms they do have long-lifespan!
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 26, 2:07am
Post #19 of 19
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Once again, Tolkien is at his best through meditation. His thoughts on men and what drives them are 'a reflection' rather than told through story and plot. The plot lies elsewhere but this reflection is about the nature of the blessings of numenorian man and their fascination with those blessings and how they take hold of them and over time forget where they have come from, providing ultimately a replacement orthodoxy of the Kingsman not as you say quite apostates. But the Kingsman is to put it at its simplest, a restless unhappy soul which Halbrand has already exploited.
I am sure you have noticed the way women are portrayed in that quote from U.T.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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