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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Nov 18 2024, 9:35pm
Post #26 of 39
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Ah, yes! I should have read that over again.
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The "star on the brow" vision is one of my favorite moments.
Yes, innocent (in a sense) and unconcerned as Tom seems to be, it also seems as if he's got the entire knowledge of Middle Earth and everything in it stored under that hat.
A little aside: Maybe a year before I read the Lord of the Rings for the first time at age 12 , I had a friend of about the same age who was completely absorbed in the whole story to the point where it was something he talked about constantly. He loved to quote things that struck his fancy, from opera snippets to of course LOTR; and he loved to quote and dramatically act out Merry's waking dream here, holding the imaginary spear to his chest and staggering around. And every time he got to "worsted" I would interrupt and yell "red worsted comforters!" It drove my poor friend crazy.  (It's from the Wind in the Willows--this beautiful little scene: "In the fore-court, lit by the dim rays of a horn lantern, some eight or ten little field-mice stood in a semicircle, red worsted comforters round their throats, their fore-paws thrust deep into their pockets, their feet jigging for warmth." I did apologize later, once I'd read it; LOTR that is! 
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Nov 18 2024, 9:43pm)
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oliphaunt
Menegroth
Nov 18 2024, 11:05pm
Post #27 of 39
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I always think of wool as well, as I think 'bested' is more commonly used currently. Well, if the last 50 years or so = currently. But I suspect 'worsted' is the older usage. In terms of wool, I think it came from the place-name Worstead.
I was a young fan of Wind in the Willows, we had the EH Shepard illustrated version, sadly lost when my brother helped clean out Mommy's house.
My early Tolkien memory is from age nine, ahead two years in school, reading The Hobbit for a book-report. One of my friends read it at the same time. I can still 'see' her book report, complete with an illustration of Gollum and Bilbo. Her Gollum looked like a blue version of the McDonald's Grimace who featured widely in their advertising at the time. I felt a bit sorry for her, thinking either she'd not read the book well or had hamburger cravings when she did her homework. I didn't say a thing (of course!) and we remained close for years, but I did avoid discussing Tolkien with her.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Nov 19 2024, 12:07am
Post #28 of 39
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Yes, it is, but I knew what "worsted" meant back then in
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that other sense. I was just being deliberately contrary.
And about the wool--I had no idea it came from a place--I thought it was a type of weave. Does t still exists as a product, I wonder?
E. H. Shepard--I've got that one! I bet you can still find it online. Wonderful pictures.
And you were a much more polite friend than I was!! At least I repented in the end . . .
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Nov 19 2024, 3:16am
Post #29 of 39
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The roots of their friendship and kinship come from somewhere i believe
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But then again - how much do readers need to understand, really? Tolkien needs to make us feel it's believable that Frodo's friends will drop everything to go off adventuring with Frodo - primarily because of friendship. I think we do get that clearly. And that is why Tolkien does mention that Frodo didn't have many close friends of his own age but his "closest ones were Peregrin Took and Merry Brandybuck. Frodo went tramping over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, ot the amazement of sensible folk..."
I wonder why Frodo didn't have more friends his age. Is it because perhaps Merry "gets" him most and to see Merry even reading what Frodo may do with the help of Sam shows that they are kin that can read each other's minds.
Their loyalty to each other is shown clearly in the "A Conspiracy Unmasked " chapter where we see both Merry's loyal side and practical side. "You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin --to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo."
Friendship is one huge theme in LotR and we see it established very nicely in Book 1 in Fellowship. Which other characters do we see this much devotion?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Nov 19 2024, 3:17am
Post #30 of 39
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And yes, we should keep track of Merry vs Meriadoc. I think I've noticed something of that in passing, but without thinking of what significance it might have held to call him one instead of the other. Indeed, i feel like we shoudd track that because Tolkien doens't write Merry vs Meriadoc randomly but with reason on who is addressing him.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Nov 19 2024, 3:20am
Post #31 of 39
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Carn Dum was under control of the Witch King of Angmar. Presumably Merry was sharing in the memory of the wight who had been killed before Angmar was defeated by the Dúnedain, Aragorn's ancestors. That Merry would have this dream and come out of it saying he didn't know what he was talking about but then it is he who helped slay the Witch-king at the end.
I wonder if TOlkien re-edited his work to make it be Merry who dreamed about Carn Dum and also be the one to end this evil.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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oliphaunt
Menegroth
Nov 19 2024, 10:00pm
Post #32 of 39
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Tolkien was a philologist. I believe he made careful word choices, and the same goes for how names and titles are used. The use of 'Merry' or 'Master Merry' or 'Meriadoc' or 'Master Holbytla' tells us about Merry, about the speaker, and about events. Plus, let's pay attention to the narrator, because the name the narrator uses is usually, but not always, 'Merry'.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Nov 24 2024, 4:50am
Post #33 of 39
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[replyIn the later parts of the book Merry has to face what he really fears, which is loss of agency.
I never really made thsi connection, but I think it’s spot on. We do see Merry in progressively worsening distress over finding himself alone and stripped of significance, among the Rohirrim; fated to be left behind, trusted with nothing, in charge of nothing, relying on a boon from a stranger even to be brought along to Minas Tirith like luggage, as he laments. I have often thought that this is setup, marinating Merry in humility verging on humiliation right up til his finest moment, and I still think it is deliberately functioning this way. But it also reflects on Merry as we’ve seen him earlier (and will again at the Scouring): an organizer, a fellow who likes to have his ducks in a row and his plans laid out. As the muster of Rohan threatens to marginalize him, he has no chance to position himself the way he prefers to be, the way he chooses to move through the world.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Nov 24 2024, 5:05am
Post #34 of 39
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Merry and Frodo (and maybe Pippin)
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Merry displays his wit, defuses Frodo's irritation with Lobelia, and, subtly, jabs Frodo who seemed to agree with Lobelia that being deemed a 'Brandybuck' is insulting. Frodo grew up in Brandy Hall; Lobelia isn’t inventing his “might as well be a Brandybuck” status out of thin air. I can’t imagine that he would actually see that family name as an insult himself. I think he’s just mightily amused that Lobelia would use it that way; his aside to Merry strikes me as a sort of “can you believe this lady?”
I don’t know exactly how it is to grow up in an enormous warren full of extended family, but I think the relationship between Frodo and Merry must be a pretty familiar one as cousins go. Frodo will have been older, but Merry is grown now by hobbit standards, and Frodo can’t have failed to observe the confident, put-together character he’s grown up to be. I think they more or less relate as equals, at this point, despite the dwindling age gap; Pippin, however he comes to be dear to the two of them, definitely seems to come in with kind of younger brother energy.
As to that, one thing we do know is that Merry and Pippin are tight enough to have started a conspiracy together—although who knows, maybe Fatty was critical to that chemistry in some way we don’t see.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Feb 7 2025, 8:17pm
Post #35 of 39
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Bombadil not using hobbits' names
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Such a great discovery, Oliphaunt! I'm with Ethel on this:
I'm not sure what we are supposed to think about that, but I wish I'd noticed it before, because it can't be an accident. I think you may be onto something, about Things that Tom Names. But as usual with Tolkien, it's not spelled out and we get to sense the mystery rather than having a definite list of magical properties that Tom can do, which really wouldn't be much fun.
I noticed the hobbits never call Tom "Tom" to his face, with Frodo repeatedly calling him just "Master." Tom refers to himself plenty by name, along with Goldberry and Old Man Willow. He uses Frodo's name twice: 1) when Frodo has put on the Ring at Tom's house (and Tom sees through his invisibility), and at the rescue at the Barrow. Goldberry never uses their names.
Overall, re-reading the Bombadil part of the book, it makes me think the lack of use of names when it would be natural to just adds to the aura of peculiarity to Bombadil's house. So it might be more for literary effect than anything to do with the magical invocation of names? As Ethel said, we're left to wonder.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Feb 7 2025, 8:41pm
Post #36 of 39
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A bit of Gandalf/Gildor/Aragorn feeling with Merry in Old Forest
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Merry might as well be talking about himself. He's kept plenty of intelligence to himself, he's very good at reading others, and he's been into the Old Forest several times. Does anyone else have a bit of pause when Merry explains things to the others while in the Old Forest and discussing Bree? For me the tone & style is highly reminiscent of our other beloved exposition-spewing characters I put in the Subject line. It's not a fault; just a reminder of the others for me. A hobbit asks a question, and a wise person answers; in this case the latter is Merry.
On a related note: I was thinking of verbal games like "Which hobbit would you want to plan your wedding?", and I think most people would answer Merry over the others, who's not only a devoted friend, he's a planner who stays on top of things and won't forget the cake and guest list.
But I do not posit that Merry's motivation for accompanying Frodo is primarily curiosity. He's going because Frodo is his friend: 'But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo...We are horribly afraid - but we are coming with you..'
Loyalty and friendship -- 100%. Also, I think it's something special about hobbits that they can so easily and bluntly admit to being afraid as Merry does, and that doesn't disqualify them as Action Heroes, who are supposed to be primarily 1) fearless and 2) physically gifted at fighting and survival. Merry is consistently candid, I'd say, and it's an endearing quality.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Feb 7 2025, 9:26pm
Post #37 of 39
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Merry's courage: 'all of them at once'
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Quote
13. Merry is less frightened than the other hobbits: At the ferry crossing, he is not perturbed by the crawling figure. He remains cheerful in the Old Forest when the others were depressed. He's not worried about going into Bree where the Big Folk live, and expects it to be homelike. Is Merry brave, is he acting brave to be a good leader, or doesn't he have the sense to be afraid?
I wonder if that's the reason he decided to go out of the Prancing Pony to get some air and then in turn had his first encounter with the Black Breath and the Black Rider.
This definitely wasn't an encounter for just anyone and Tolkien chose Merry to have any character's first encounter with these dangerous beings. He recovered quite quickly from that. Is there a reason for that? To Show the resiliency of hobbits? As we read on we know this will not be the last time Merry has an encounter with the Black Riders and Witch-king.
His recovery from them twice shows how strong he really is.
I think Elentari covered all the bases, but it's worth highlighting Oliphaunt's original question. I get the sense that Merry is braver than most hobbits, but still no Boromir/Aragorn. I also appreciate the point of leadership where he's acting brave to inspire the others, something Frodo does on the road to Crickhollow when pursued by the Black Riders. And it's important to remember that if the hobbits had any real idea what they were getting into, they wouldn't have left home! For Merry's future acts of courage, I like to think that it came from a combination of hobbit-courage and his own personal traits.
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Feb 7 2025, 11:37pm
Post #38 of 39
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This really struck me: "Merry is consistently candid, I'd say, and it's an endearing quality."
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It's a "flavor" this character has that I sensed without really thinking about it or putting a (ahem) Name to it. Yes, compared to all the other main Hobbit characters, including Sam who could be very cagey, Merry is the most forthcoming, but oddly enough, it doesn't make him the most naive, even though it seems that way sometimes.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Feb 11 2025, 3:44am
Post #39 of 39
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Thanks, and I'm glad you noticed it too.
Funny how once upon a time I was one of the fans who said Merry & Pippin were interchangeable, but other fans prodded me to look at the nuanced differences between them, and Tolkien was careful and consistent in developing them. One standout moment for Merry that exemplifies his speech patterns vs. Pippin's (and Frodo's and Sam's) was in his great quote about the need to fight in Scouring of the Shire. I often think it must have been brutal for Frodo to hear this from a close friend, but I also think there's so much implicit trust among friends in LOTR that Frodo knew there was no venom, malice, or mockery behind it:
‘But if there are many of these ruffians,’ said Merry, ‘it will certainly mean fighting. You won’t rescue Lotho, or the Shire, just by being shocked and sad, my dear Frodo.’
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