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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 3, 8:31pm
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The Biggest Question
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There are lot of questions about how the rest of the series will play out, including if and how Celeborn will be introduce, who will become the Nazgûl, etc. But to me one stands heads and shoulders above the rest. That is how they will present the Downfall of Númenor, and how it comes about. This is, arguably, the single most important part of the history of the Second Age, and one that they seem unprepared to portray. The Downfall occurs when the Valar "laid down their government of Arda" and "Ilúvatar showed forth his power" and "changed the fashion of the world." Or, more properly, since the LOTR appendices are what they have rights to, "the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea, and the Undying Lands were removed for ever from the circles of the world." But while the Valar have been mentioned several times in the show (most prominently in the IMO ridiculous sequence in which Míriel faces the sea creature and is 'judged' to be innocent, I don't think they have mentioned anything about Eru Ilúvatar or the One. Will they incorporate that into the narrative, or will they try to lay the drowning of Númenor at the feet of the Valar? Based on what they have done so far (good as some things have been), I'm not confident that they can pull this off. But if they don't, the show will be a failure. IMHO, of course.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.' The Hall of Fire
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Nov 3, 10:18pm
Post #2 of 30
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We've seen the basic visions of the destruction, so I guess you're meaning story more than the visuals. I was going to jest about how in a union action against the import of cheaper labor, the Teamsters blow up the Island as a point about the writing quality. That would cheaply avoid the whole Valar question. But I think they'll send ships to conquer the Undying Lands just as in the books. But I've often wondered: 1) Is Valinor just the equivalent a snobbish gated community? It seems pretty petty to not share such a thing. And 2) Do the Numenoreans tragically and ignorantly confuse an immortal nature with land upon which they live? Or do the Undying Lands actually imbue immortality by being there?
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Nov 3, 10:23pm)
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Nov 4, 3:12am
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The season one finale did mention The One. Halbrand/Sauron tells Galadriel that "after Morgoth was defeated, it was as if a great clenched fist had released its grasp from my neck- and in the stillness of that first sunrise, at last I felt the light of The One again."
I don't think they have mentioned anything about Eru Ilúvatar or the One. Don't mess with my favorite female elves.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 4, 4:22am
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I did not recall that. I'm not sure that is enough to set the scene for the Downfall, but at least it is a start.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.' The Hall of Fire
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Noria
Grey Havens
Nov 4, 4:56am
Post #5 of 30
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An interesting question, Voronwë.
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One that may elicit different responses from different book lovers depending upon how important the religious themes in Tolkien’s works are to them. Those who haven’t read the books probably won’t care, as long as the story makes some kind of sense. Like Peter Jackson, so far the writers of RoP don’t seem to want to go any deeper into the religious underpinnings and themes of Tolkien’s world than they must. I’m ok with that. They may feel that the single mention of “the One” (thanks Dweller) is enough for them to elaborate and bring Iluvatar, the guardianship of Arda and the changing of the world into their story of Numenor. But if they don’t want to go there, it seems to me that it would work to simply say that the Numenorians, being mortal, are absolutely and irrevocably forbidden to approach the land of the immortals, namely the godlike Valar and also the Elves, and that there will be terrible retribution if they try. We know what that will be. Blame it on the Valar or the One. I’m not sure it’s necessary to get into the Valar relinquishing their guardianship, the removal of the Undying Lands from Arda and so on. Something along those lines work for me, because the religious themes in Tolkien’s works are of less interest to me than other ideas.
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TFP
Lorien
Nov 4, 10:31am
Post #6 of 30
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On-screen divine intervention generally
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It's undoubtedly hard to do this sort of thing well. e.g. I fully understood the decision of the makers of the [rather mixed] 00s 'Troy'/Iliad adaptation not to include the gods at all, indeed to barely mention them, even though, as adaptations which deviate drastically from the source material go, this was a decision on at least the scale of, hypothetically, trying to make a version of LoTR with zero 'magical' or supernatural elements, including magical rings. but they are going to have to try, undoubtedly. I'm not sure that the difference between "the Valar" and "the One" is such an important one for this audience.
(This post was edited by TFP on Nov 4, 10:31am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 4, 2:20pm
Post #7 of 30
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There are lot of questions about how the rest of the series will play out, including if and how Celeborn will be introduce, who will become the Nazgûl, etc. But to me one stands heads and shoulders above the rest. That is how they will present the Downfall of Númenor, and how it comes about. This is, arguably, the single most important part of the history of the Second Age, and one that they seem unprepared to portray. The Downfall occurs when the Valar "laid down their government of Arda" and "Ilúvatar showed forth his power" and "changed the fashion of the world." Or, more properly, since the LOTR appendices are what they have rights to, "the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea, and the Undying Lands were removed forever from the circles of the world." But while the Valar have been mentioned several times in the show (most prominently in the IMO ridiculous sequence in which Míriel faces the sea creature and is 'judged' to be innocent, I don't think they have mentioned anything about Eru Ilúvatar or the One. Will they incorporate that into the narrative, or will they try to lay the drowning of Númenor at the feet of the Valar? Based on what they have done so far (good as some things have been), I'm not confident that they can pull this off. But if they don't, the show will be a failure. IMHO, of course. Probably a good idea to ask a non-book person what they make of:- 1) The prophetic scene. 2) The shedding of the leaves of the Tree. 3) The appearance of the Eagle. 4) The sea creature. Do they think those are from the Elves or the Valar? Manwe has been mentioned and Gandalf catapulted across the heavens. I think they will go with 'the powers' laying down their authority as you quote but leave out the big one. Miriel/Ar Pharazon and the Palantir can communicate/remind the unknowing audience of what's being argued over. Elendil, who will escape, all so can explain the jeopardy to the audience, indicating that the powers will lay down their authority. He could learn of the premonitions from a remorseful daughter (Islidur) whose arc may close out as the heroine who saved her family. The key storytelling point is three personalities in this story know about the premonitions through the Palantir which are gifts from the blessed realm and can explain where the premonitions come from. The premonition will drive the story. OK so is it God or the Powers, for the uncommitted does it matter who lays down the powers? Does it come down to just one phrase rather than two? Filmmakers get their fingers very burned when they try and do God and in an increasingly secular world, I would leave it to a consortium rather than the big chap or chapess. "Who are these dorks that believe in a god that's for sissies" For me, what is more important, than the legal framework of the flooding and separation, is that S3 needs a substantial raising of the storytelling game in Numenor. Right now they seem shallow and capricious and the sooner we wave goodbye the better.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 4, 2:28pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 4, 3:14pm
Post #8 of 30
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I am not Catholic, or Christian, or religious in any traditional way. I don't need for it to make sense from a religious standpoint; I just need for it to make sense. But I have a hard time imagining any scenario that makes sense without the intervention of the One. Having the Valar suddenly able to exercise that kind of power on their own would render Ar-Pharazon's attack on the Undying Lands ridiculous or worse.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.' The Hall of Fire
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Junesong
Rohan
Nov 4, 5:35pm
Post #9 of 30
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I want the show to really lean into the GOD aspect of these stories. I think the second age story in particular really calls for it. Is it a problematic time to talk about God in mainstream culture. Heck yes. But I think this story needs its proper frame. I hope they really lean into it. I want human sacrifices and everything.
"So which story do you prefer?" "The one with the tiger. That's the better story." "Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Nov 4, 6:23pm
Post #10 of 30
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Eru, the Ainur and the Valar have made themselves evident. Faith is not involved here so let's not assign our names to that story.
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Junesong
Rohan
Nov 4, 8:07pm
Post #11 of 30
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That which we call "God" by any other word would smell as sweet. While Tolkien may have invented the Ainur, the Valar, the Maia, and even the children of Iluvatar - Eru was not invented by Tolkien. Tolkien was invented by Eru. Tolkien wasn't a creator. He was a sub-creator. One of the things most impressive about ROP, so far, is their willingness to go there with Tolkien's in-world "religion" and "spirituality" My point was that I hope they go there even more.
"So which story do you prefer?" "The one with the tiger. That's the better story." "Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Lissuin
Valinor
Nov 5, 3:19am
Post #12 of 30
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The Faithful vs the villainous Dumb Dumbs and S4E8
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"The Faithful" have been mentioned several times in the series already. Who are they but the relatively few in Númenor, in number and political clout by the end of S2, who still pay genuine homage to the Valar and Ilúvatar at this point. We have our Númenórean heroes, Elendil and his sons (Anárion still absent but mentioned in S1E3, thanks Felagund), who maintain their place in the ranks of the Faithful through devotion and fealty, protecting Tar-Míriel whose own faithfulness is acknowledged on screen through her trial with the sea monster. She has maintained her position as the genuine Supreme Defender of the Faith in everything we've seen of her. These faithful heroes and the shrinking band of the Faithful are now being persecuted by Ar-Pharazôn, the highest-ranking villain of Númenor, currently in charge as of last season. So far the story tracks. The writers have been showing us some of the current state of the faith-less-ness of the larger society (ex. Elves Not Welcome Here), which will surely increase when Sauron is invited in. The new ruler and the bulk of society will begin, in earnest, their persecution of the much diminished faithful group of citizens still left in Númenor. We are definitely building up to the (no doubt awesome!) CGI destruction of the island and removal of other parts of the world due to the majority's turning away from and making war against the Valar, which we know must come. We have three (3!) more seasons to build to that and deal with the aftermath. We had to have the biggest initial story of the Elves against Sauron, and the introduction of Orcs, Men of various places, Dwarves, proto-Hobbits, Eagles, Dragons, Wizards and the map of Middle-earth to work through up till now. Whew! I wouldn't have missed any of those bits of the Second Age. Now the stage is set in Númenor for big political intrigue and societal degradation. Sounds like fun, eh? I'm sure that in the remaining seasons the writers can make us believe that those nasty Númenoreans are going to deserve everything they get. And what a Season 4 finale if the last new character we get is a cinematically spectacular and wrathful Ultimate Being! They'll need all of Season 5 just to clean up the mess.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 5, 4:25am
Post #13 of 30
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Sorry I misunderstood your original point
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I am not Catholic, or Christian, or religious in any traditional way. I don't need for it to make sense from a religious standpoint; I just need for it to make sense. But I have a hard time imagining any scenario that makes sense without the intervention of the One. Having the Valar suddenly able to exercise that kind of power on their own would render Ar-Pharazon's attack on the Undying Lands ridiculous or worse. I thought you were saying in your original post that we have no evidence of the One. So I answered on that basis and gave examples of how they can warn and amplify (to the audience) where the authority to change the world comes from. The palantir could be a conduit to show the audience the one. Ar Pharazon has already seen some inexplicable things in it (the secret fire which Halbrand is intimately connected to) and we are not certain what Earien has seen in it. So I would amend my answer and say their are a number of avenues they have opened up already to show first the jeopardy and then the realisation of that jeopardy and that it comes through the One as Halbrand refers to it. Where I may differ from you is that I think with Eru less is more. I want the myth of creation to hold on to its mystery but for the audience to understand their are ordained powers who come from the original thought of the one. Finally it sounds provocative but I do not really understand why Ar Pharazon, goaded by Sauron to seek eternal life, is compromised by him defying the powers as opposed to defying the one. That feels a little like semantics. We also have to bear in mind the hierarchy is not explained in the LOTR but in the Music and the Valaquenta. Finally, finally is it a Noaharchian flood or as in the story a flat earth myth where the world is made round. Now that does feel like complication for its own sake and a potential distraction. Remember people here have got concerned about the lack of logic of where stars can be seen. Do you show paradise separating from Earth? Can of worms.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 5, 4:38am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 5, 4:42am
Post #14 of 30
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Tell the story through the eyes of the key players and the philosophical issues around mortality but go easy on the geographical and geological exposition of the myth created by Eru. Tolkien learned very late on by his mid forties that the best way to tell the most profound story is through mediation. Glance at Paradise do not rove around in it or the things on the edge of our sight.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 5, 4:45am)
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Noria
Grey Havens
Nov 9, 4:08pm
Post #15 of 30
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I agree that it's hard to do on-screen divine intervention well
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I accept gods and such in fantasy just as I do elves, wizards and dragons. It’s all fantasy. But keep it simple, or at least as simple as possible. I think that less is best in presenting the Numenor story to a general audience. We’ll surely see the island disappear under the great wave, but because RoP has never said anything about a flat earth that I recall, there’s no need to show geographical changes. There’s been no mention of the Guardianship of the Valar for them to lay down and we’ve never seen a Vala anyway. A few more allusions to Iluvatar and they can blame him for the Fall. Or they can put it on the Valar, who have been referenced several times already and might be considered to have the right and the power to defend their homeland, especially from people as vile as the slave-taking, human-sacrificing Numenorians. We’ve already seen the beginnings of Pharazon’s obsession with mortality. I expect that Numenor will receive more attention next season and that theme will be developed as the Miriel-Elendil-Pharazon story progresses. Meanwhile, the war in Eriador will play out and Sauron will eventually go to Numenor to start that phase of the story. There’s still time. I don’t mind if RoP does bring Iluvatar into the destruction of Numenor but I don’t want the religious aspects of the story to be front and center any more than is necessary. That’s partly because I’m not particularly interested in that stuff myself but I also believe that it’s just not a winning strategy for a piece of art/entertainment meant for general consumption.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Nov 9, 5:55pm
Post #16 of 30
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I agree that it's hard to do on-screen divine intervention well I accept gods and such in fantasy just as I do elves, wizards and dragons. It’s all fantasy. But keep it simple, or at least as simple as possible. ... I don’t mind if RoP does bring Iluvatar into the destruction of Numenor but I don’t want the religious aspects of the story to be front and center any more than is necessary. That’s partly because I’m not particularly interested in that stuff myself but I also believe that it’s just not a winning strategy for a piece of art/entertainment meant for general consumption. I've always considered it to be writing cowardice or lack of imagination to not go directly to the highest level of "divine intervention." For example, I was disappointed by "The Exorcist" in that they chose to have a demon possess Regan instead of Lucifer, as if there was some unwritten rule to not use the Big Boss when it comes to religious topics, whereas this sort of inhibition manifests for real in restrictions against depicting the Prophet Muhammad. That said, films like "Oh, God" starring John Denver with George Burns in the god role or "Bruce Almighty" starring Jim Carrey with Morgan Freeman in the god role were refreshing for "going there." So it can be done, which is why I lean toward writing cowardice or lack of imagination when they don't.
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Junesong
Rohan
Nov 9, 8:35pm
Post #17 of 30
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I hope they do "go there" and not shrink away from the in-world religious beliefs and systems. I also agree about the cowardice in backing away from that kind of thing - especially in the entertainment world. People don't want to be reminded of bigger, higher, or more important things than us. But I don't think that should stop the show from doing its thing. I was encouraged, listening to all the interviews with the showrunners over the last few weeks (one with Corey and Maggie on Rings and Realms was particularly refreshing in this area) and that they seem very much in tune with Tolkien's religious foundations. They don't seem like the type to shy away from this - and I think we've seen some evidence in the show already that they're going to "go there". I'm excited for it.
"So which story do you prefer?" "The one with the tiger. That's the better story." "Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 9, 8:54pm
Post #18 of 30
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I accept gods and such in fantasy just as I do elves, wizards and dragons. It’s all fantasy. But keep it simple, or at least as simple as possible. I think that less is best in presenting the Numenor story to a general audience. We’ll surely see the island disappear under the great wave, but because RoP has never said anything about a flat earth that I recall, there’s no need to show geographical changes. There’s been no mention of the Guardianship of the Valar for them to lay down and we’ve never seen a Vala anyway. A few more allusions to Iluvatar and they can blame him for the Fall. Or they can put it on the Valar, who have been referenced several times already and might be considered to have the right and the power to defend their homeland, especially from people as vile as the slave-taking, human-sacrificing Numenorians. We’ve already seen the beginnings of Pharazon’s obsession with mortality. I expect that Numenor will receive more attention next season and that theme will be developed as the Miriel-Elendil-Pharazon story progresses. Meanwhile, the war in Eriador will play out and Sauron will eventually go to Numenor to start that phase of the story. There’s still time. I don’t mind if RoP does bring Iluvatar into the destruction of Numenor but I don’t want the religious aspects of the story to be front and center any more than is necessary. That’s partly because I’m not particularly interested in that stuff myself but I also believe that it’s just not a winning strategy for a piece of art/entertainment meant for general consumption. Tolkien, himself, had second thoughts about a flat Arda, but there's still no reason to think that the Downfall of Númenor wouldn't bring about other changes to the geography of the world, just as the War of Wrath had done at the end of the First Age. We still have Aman becoming separated from the rest of Arda. Why shouldn't we see old lands undergoing changes and new lands arise?
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 9, 8:58pm
Post #19 of 30
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I definitely agree with you that they should not (and will not) get into the matter of the world being changed and the straight path to the Undying lands being taken away. But I continue to believe that they will have to present some kind of divine intervention that transcends the power of the Valar, or risk making the whole storyline make no sense at all. It will require a very subtle touch that I'm not sure these showrunners have demonstrated an aptitude for. But I remain willing and hopeful to be pleasantly surprised again, as I was by their presentation of Sauron's misguided notions about "healing" the world in the past season.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.' The Hall of Fire
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 10, 1:08pm
Post #20 of 30
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I hope they do "go there" and not shrink away from the in-world religious beliefs and systems. I also agree about the cowardice in backing away from that kind of thing - especially in the entertainment world. People don't want to be reminded of bigger, higher, or more important things than us. But I don't think that should stop the show from doing its thing. I was encouraged, listening to all the interviews with the showrunners over the last few weeks (one with Corey and Maggie on Rings and Realms was particularly refreshing in this area) and that they seem very much in tune with Tolkien's religious foundations. They don't seem like the type to shy away from this - and I think we've seen some evidence in the show already that they're going to "go there". I'm excited for it. I have only watched 20% of that interview and they had not got on to the professors beliefs. However whats got me thinking is that the audience knows:- 1) Numenor is going to be overwhelmed. They know about the Valar and the Eagle and the Tree. 2) They know Beleriand is beneath the waves (Arondir) and that Valinor is hidden and only open to the ordained. 3) And the one has been mentioned but very subtly. His/her agency has not been on show to date though much of ME is beneath the waves. If Eru appears big time. buries Ar Pharazon's fleet, overwhelms Numenor in a very obviously interventionist way, will it be harder to just leave the remnants of all this to fight it out at the climax of the series. The rest of the series will be post catastrophe. If you want to even out the narrative then Sauron needs to retain his agency and the loss of Numenor has to be a more local difficulty. As always with the back story when you start putting it up against the wall and really looking at the story telling dynamics it needs a work over. As one of them said this story tells the story of an age when everything was at its peak and the third age is post apocalyptic. If you are not careful the end of the 2nd age could look like a post script. And given this series is called the Rings Of Power I do not think they will let that happen. So go with the beliefs but God turning up mid way through the overall story feels wrong at a structural level to me. It's odd but probably because the Akallabeth came ten years after the LOTR (for me) I had a perception in my teens that the drowning of Beleriand and the hiding of Valinor was more important than the drowning of Numenor. and the removal of Paradise and as has been said elsewhere the flat earth idea was creaking toward the end of the professors life. It's going to be fascinating to see how they generate five seasons of ascension.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 10, 1:14pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Nov 10, 4:18pm
Post #21 of 30
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Your Quest stands upon the edge of a knife ...
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... Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.' The Hall of Fire
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 10, 6:50pm
Post #22 of 30
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I hope they do "go there" and not shrink away from the in-world religious beliefs and systems. I also agree about the cowardice in backing away from that kind of thing - especially in the entertainment world. People don't want to be reminded of bigger, higher, or more important things than us. But I don't think that should stop the show from doing its thing. I was encouraged, listening to all the interviews with the showrunners over the last few weeks (one with Corey and Maggie on Rings and Realms was particularly refreshing in this area) and that they seem very much in tune with Tolkien's religious foundations. They don't seem like the type to shy away from this - and I think we've seen some evidence in the show already that they're going to "go there". I'm excited for it. Artists write screen plays and have huge amendments made to their scripts, If Ridley Scott is given 100 million dollars to make a movie he will make the movie that is requested by the one who pays for the movie. That is particularly pertinent to what we are talking about when he turned away from seeking God, to making another monster movie; with a story line. God is big business in the United States, particularly the fly over states. That is quite separate from the many forms of belief systems which inform societies across the Globe where there is a very profound relationship between the believer and their God which provides their moral compass. I listened to the rest of what the showrunners said in their recent interview you referred to. I was surprised at how grounded they were, talking about story telling from the point of each characters journey, the recognisable evil of Sauron, morality, moral dilemma's and psychopathy from a very modern psychological profiling stand point. It was a mix of yes we understand Tolkien but we want to bring the psychological deconstruction of Lost to the table (thats my reading of what they said not what they said); and of course get the viewer to make an investment in characters, relationships and mystery journeys. Returning to Numenor one of them talked about how Numenor was essentially lost and casting around. I hope they believe there is a world of difference between expressing a loss of moral integrity and certainty, which is never explained, and a constant set of voltfaces without any sense of handwringing or circumspection. Right now what I see on the screen is not floundering in mist but cold eyed opportunistic certainty if entirely shallow. Is the actor bad or is it bad acting springs to mind.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 10, 7:05pm)
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Nov 10, 8:08pm
Post #23 of 30
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Faithful Adaptations vs Big Business
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Artists write screen plays and have huge amendments made to their scripts, If Ridley Scott is given 100 million dollars to make a movie he will make the movie that is requested by the one who pays for the movie. That is particularly pertinent to what we are talking about when he turned away from seeking God, to making another monster movie; with a story line. God is big business in the United States, particularly the fly over states. This leans toward "writing cowardice" rather than "lack of imagination." You imply the writer, producer, director, whichever or all Scott might be, does not wish to offend the Big Business of religion, or Big Business in general, or at least is willing to compromise his story for the backer. Maybe I should add artistic integrity to the list. The story in this case, was already written by J.R.R. Tolkien. All they have to do is follow it. I see the show runners' or writers' philosophical ideas about what they are doing as somewhat pretentious, trying to convince viewers their clothes are beautiful while they are actually... Well, you know the fable. William Peter Blatty determined to use a demon instead of Satan (though the demon claimed to be Satan), so we're kind of stuck there. His book dictates what the writers do, so they are excused. But there no such excuse for Rings of Power, no matter how many story theories and justifications we bandy about..
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 11, 1:35am
Post #24 of 30
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Agree with a lot of what you say but.
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Artists write screen plays and have huge amendments made to their scripts, If Ridley Scott is given 100 million dollars to make a movie he will make the movie that is requested by the one who pays for the movie. That is particularly pertinent to what we are talking about when he turned away from seeking God, to making another monster movie; with a story line. God is big business in the United States, particularly the fly over states. This leans toward "writing cowardice" rather than "lack of imagination." You imply the writer, producer, director, whichever or all Scott might be, does not wish to offend the Big Business of religion, or Big Business in general, or at least is willing to compromise his story for the backer. Maybe I should add artistic integrity to the list. The story in this case, was already written by J.R.R. Tolkien. All they have to do is follow it. I see the show runners' or writers' philosophical ideas about what they are doing as somewhat pretentious, trying to convince viewers their clothes are beautiful while they are actually... Well, you know the fable. William Peter Blatty determined to use a demon instead of Satan (though the demon claimed to be Satan), so we're kind of stuck there. His book dictates what the writers do, so they are excused. But there no such excuse for Rings of Power, no matter how many story theories and justifications we bandy about.. I do not necessarily disagree with you. But consider this https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2022/02/22/112283-the-rings-of-power-not-art-or-cash-but-art-and-cash/ Tolkien himself described his attitude as "Cash or Kudos" and to get the ball rolling on this 200 million was paid which gave veto power not to the guys writing the story but the guys who paid for this. Whilst we are doing moral dilemma. I wonder how many people who contribute to this forum are in a strong enough position to turn round to the one who gives the advance to not succumb to artistic cowardice. In the IV they discuss Saruman and his desire to reorder things for everyones good. As always the motives of Tolkien's characters have an applicability. You are perfectly right to direct your fire at the writers of the show with a sense of outrage and discernment for better things. I just wonder if it is not more nuanced than that with other forces at work. One thing Voronwe's excellent question has raised is, now we are under way, I am giving more thought to how difficult finishing is, in a coherent way to a summit, rather than a post script. It's a different dilemma but look how they were presented with a large bag of gold to produce a show without the authentic beginning. Is that not part of the compromise that I am shining more of a light on. By the way I am not implying anything, I KNOW it happens and I use Ridley as an example because he said it publicly. This level of entertainment is big business. Knock me down with a feather if the way Eru is presented is affected by that. We have seen Numenor destroyed in the first season; someone has agency. We are down to particularly, who, the implications of Miriel's words are something which she calls the "Valar".
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 11, 1:49am)
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Nov 11, 1:57am
Post #25 of 30
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No excuse with the Rings of Power
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Artists write screen plays and have huge amendments made to their scripts, If Ridley Scott is given 100 million dollars to make a movie he will make the movie that is requested by the one who pays for the movie. That is particularly pertinent to what we are talking about when he turned away from seeking God, to making another monster movie; with a story line. God is big business in the United States, particularly the fly over states. This leans toward "writing cowardice" rather than "lack of imagination." You imply the writer, producer, director, whichever or all Scott might be, does not wish to offend the Big Business of religion, or Big Business in general, or at least is willing to compromise his story for the backer. Maybe I should add artistic integrity to the list. The story in this case, was already written by J.R.R. Tolkien. All they have to do is follow it. I see the show runners' or writers' philosophical ideas about what they are doing as somewhat pretentious, trying to convince viewers their clothes are beautiful while they are actually... Well, you know the fable. William Peter Blatty determined to use a demon instead of Satan (though the demon claimed to be Satan), so we're kind of stuck there. His book dictates what the writers do, so they are excused. But there no such excuse for Rings of Power, no matter how many story theories and justifications we bandy about.. Moving away from the financial politics I fundamentally disagree with you about how one should present the appendices. The appendices are notes, to explain some of the historical back ground. To turn those notes into stories in the way the LOTR is a story is a huge undertaking and quite different. To then place that story on the screen is an even bigger undertaking. This was never going to be a line by line follow or compression or expansion. To tell these notes as cinematic stories requires a reset. The scrutiny close story telling requires and to hold the viewer is a substantially different presentation to the quasi academic back stories that were written. The irony of the difficulties this evolved story telling presents, should not be lost on Tolkien fans. The professor wrestled with it for upwards of twenty years with the Silmarillion and never solved the problem, and nor did Christopher, he presented it. For some, and i can see why, just the concept doesn't work; never mind the quality of the writing and the presentation of the story beats in a coherent well developed format.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 11, 2:11am)
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